The Talleyrand Plan

[wannis]

I can understand your point, but I'll explain why I am handing over Aachen.

-Aachen had only been part of Prussia for 21 years at this point.

Southern Liege even less.

-Until the coming of the railway from Cologne to Belgium IOTL, Aachen was rather neglected by the authorities in Berlin.

It is one thing to neglect a place, a completely different thing to give it up. As I said, FW IV was a romantic and dreamt about turning time back to the HRE. Aachen was the capital of Charlemagne. If the Dutch had demanded it, he might have handed this over as a prize if desperate enough, but I simply cannot imagine him offering this.

It would probably ruin your plans for your timeline, but with the Dutch being a military minnow and getting France off his back being much more important, he's much more likely to have offered Liege to the French, especially if the Dutch don't want it.

-The Dutch would not accept Liege as the prize:after all, it's a hotbed of anti-Dutch feeling ITTL and IOTL, hence the Belgian Revolution.

ITTL and IOTL they fought a war to keep the Catholic Netherlands and now they reject parts of it? A bit unlikely.

I hope that persuades you but I don't blame you if it doesn't!

You see, it doesn't.

 

[SteveW]

Southern Liege even less.



It is one thing to neglect a place, a completely different thing to give it up. As I said, FW IV was a romantic and dreamt about turning time back to the HRE. Aachen was the capital of Charlemagne. If the Dutch had demanded it, he might have handed this over as a prize if desperate enough, but I simply cannot imagine him offering this.

It would probably ruin your plans for your timeline, but with the Dutch being a military minnow and getting France off his back being much more important, he's much more likely to have offered Liege to the French, especially if the Dutch don't want it.



ITTL and IOTL they fought a war to keep the Catholic Netherlands and now they reject parts of it? A bit unlikely.



You see, it doesn't.

Ah well, I do accept your points, but I feel like a bit of artistic licence

Seriously, I did base my decision partly on the strong position of the Dutch ITTL- they have overrun both sides of the Meuse, and Aachen is well within striking distance. Plus, romantic as he might have been, FW is a bit shafted here as it stands.

Hopefully a further update later this weekend- for now, after my first day of work, I'm knackered!

 

[Rockingham]

Has this TL had any effects on Africa/asia yet? Whats the situation in the "belgian" and spanish territories aquired by France? Discontent?

 

[SteveW]

Has this TL had any effects on Africa/asia yet? Whats the situation in the "belgian" and spanish territories aquired by France? Discontent?

Not as yet on Asia, but it will start to have more of an effect in Africa, because the Ottoman Empire and Egypt are both looking rather strong ITTL and will not be pushovers in the face of any imperialist adventures.

French-controlled Wallonia is quiet at the moment: they quite liked joining France, but like many other areas of France they are dissatisfied with Soult's regime. As for Navarre- there's some unrest, but it's essentially under martial law, like most of France.

 

[SteveW]

The End Nears

This sordid little war, which had hardly got going, was already moving towards its conclusion. It would prove to have been decisive not merely for its territory exchanges, but for the internal changes it provoked in several nations.

As February drew to a close, Prussia was clearly not on her knees. This had something to do with her enemies' motivations. Denmark, now in undisputed control of Schleswig-Holstein, had no desire to take any territory from Prussia itself. The Bavarians were more than happy with their annexation of Frankfurt, and the Dutch had already been bought off. The Swedes were going nowhere fast, the Intermarians similarly, and Friedrich Wilhelm IV prepared himself to request an armistice with many of the major combatants. He was determined not to be cowed by France, however.

On the 24th February 1836, Frederick VI of Denmark received the proposal for peace. Discussing it with his ministers and his military high command, he agreed to the idea-all of Denmark's strategic interests would be met, he declared. The Prussian offer was thus:

-An immediate end to hostilities.
-Recognition of Danish control of Schleswig-Holstein, and its incorporation into the Danish state.

The same day, Bavaria was presented with a peace offer- this too was accepted. As March began, Prussia was only still engaged in hostilities with France, Sweden, Intermaria and rebellious Liege. And she was to deal with those with unbridled fury...

 

[SteveW]

Hubris

The 2nd March 1836 was a crucial date in the shaping of modern European history. Two events occured on this date whose effects would be felt for some time to come.

The first was at Colmar in Alsace. Recognising the slow death of Soult's regime, Louis-Napoleon Bonaparte appeared and declared Soult to be a traitor, a self-aggrandiser and a tyrant. The first and third accusations were fairly baseless, but Bonaparte soon had people rallying to him, and cries of "Bonaparte, President!" began to be heard around the area. The authorities were only aware of his presence a few days later, at which point he had melted away. Known to historians as "The Ventose of Louis-Napoleon", a reference to the French revolutionary calendar and his uncle's more famous Brumaire coup, this seemingly minor event would recast French politics.

The second was hundreds of miles away at Pozsony (OTL Bratislava). Addressing the Hungarian Diet, Lajos Batthyany declared Hungarian independence, with himself as leader. His supporters and rebels across the lands of St. Stephen rose in support. It had been a long time coming- that it happened was of little surprise to the Viennese authorities, but of much concern.

 

[Valdemar II]

The same day, Bavaria was presented with a peace offer- this too was accepted. As March began, Prussia was only still engaged in hostilities with France, Sweden, Intermaria and rebellious Liege. And she was to deal with those with unbridled fury...

Would Intermaria not be seeking peace with Danish acceptens of the Prussian peace proposal?

 

[SteveW]

Would Intermaria not be seeking peace with Danish acceptens of the Prussian peace proposal?

Intermaria will indeed, but now it isn't so much in hock to Denmark- with the acquisition of Genoa and the entrance of Tuscany, Intermaria's original Danish links have ben heavily watered down.

 

[Rockingham]

The same day, Bavaria was presented with a peace offer- this too was accepted. As March began, Prussia was only still engaged in hostilities with France, Sweden, Intermaria and rebellious Liege. And she was to deal with those with unbridled fury...

What was the said peace offer? Monetary compensation?

Intermaria will indeed, but now it isn't so much in hock to Denmark- with the acquisition of Genoa and the entrance of Tuscany, Intermaria's original Danish links have ben heavily watered down.

Didn't Intermaria have very little reason to enter the war anyway.....seems more like a symbolic gesture then anything else.

 

[LordKalvan]

Would Intermaria not be seeking peace with Danish acceptens of the Prussian peace proposal?

That would also be my thought: Intermaria did not have any great interest in the northern war, except to reciprocate Danish help in past wars.

I'd also anticipate that the Hungarian insurrection will open the door for possible gains in the Lombardo-Veneto, and this is something that Intermaria will not be willing to neglect. In particular if the Hungarian motes are matched by spontaneous (well, as spontaneous as they can be) insurrections in Milan and Venice.

 

[SteveW]

What was the said peace offer? Monetary compensation?
Didn't Intermaria have very little reason to enter the war anyway.....seems more like a symbolic gesture then anything else.

The gesture was indeed fairly symbolic, but reflected Misley's desire to have his nation seen as one of the big boys.

The Bavarian peace offer was quietly accepted- I was going to flesh it all out when I do a new map. Effectively, Prussia recognises the annexation of Frankfurt, as the Bavarians did not get particularly far into Prussia. This war was essentially a war of opportunism for all involved.

 

[SteveW]

That would also be my thought: Intermaria did not have any great interest in the northern war, except to reciprocate Danish help in past wars.

I'd also anticipate that the Hungarian insurrection will open the door for possible gains in the Lombardo-Veneto, and this is something that Intermaria will not be willing to neglect. In particular if the Hungarian motes are matched by spontaneous (well, as spontaneous as they can be) insurrections in Milan and Venice.

Austria will survive the crisis, but in a very different form- and maybe one which will stabilise the continent a bit more than IOTL.

 

[SteveW]

Kaiser Ferdinand was visited on the 6th March by Metternich, who informed him that Batthyany had declared Hungarian independence. The feeble-minded Kaiser's response was "Ja, aber darf er das?", a fairly representative illustration of his inability to truly comprehend what was going on. What he did realise, however, was that Metternich was not in a good way. His cherished System was irretrievably damaged- he was physically shaking as he told the Kaiser what had happened. He now had no ability to control Hungary. An overture to Nicholas I of Russia for aid was shortly to be refused, as Nicholas's armies were demoralised and depleted after the Northern War.

The Regent's Council had also noticed this. On the 11th March, they formally asked for Metternich to resign, citing his total failure to safeguard the territorial integrity of Austria, especially in northern Italy. Under severe pressure, he acquiesced and retreated to his estate at Johannesberg. The Council had decided that a military man was needed in the face of such a crisis, if they were to salvage anything from the conflict. That man would be the new Minister President of Austria.

That man was Marshal Josef Radetzky.

 

[Tizoc]

I allowed myself to redo the last posted map - there was a number of mistakes; which, BTW, made me think that you used the map for Napoleonic Europe after 1809 as a template..

1. Congress Poland didn't have Greater Poland - it was Prussian.
2. Hanover, after Congress of Vienna had lands around Ems river (between Netherlands and Oldenburg)
3. Free City of Cracov wasn't shown in your map.
4. What did you do to Vallachia? What was with halving it?
5. and also - there are no islands just by the Hel Penisula (north of Gdansk)

 

[SteveW]

I allowed myself to redo the last posted map - there was a number of mistakes; which, BTW, made me think that you used the map for Napoleonic Europe after 1809 as a template..

1. Congress Poland didn't have Greater Poland - it was Prussian.
2. Hanover, after Congress of Vienna had lands around Ems river (between Netherlands and Oldenburg)
3. Free City of Cracov wasn't shown in your map.
4. What did you do to Vallachia? What was with halving it?
5. and also - there are no islands just by the Hel Penisula (north of Gdansk)

Many thanks- I was aware that I had made a fair few mistakes, but had no idea where or for what reason (this is the first TL I've ever done any maps for). If you don't mind, I'll use that map that you've done as the base for when I next update it.

 

[pompejus]

I allowed myself to redo the last posted map - there was a number of mistakes; which, BTW, made me think that you used the map for Napoleonic Europe after 1809 as a template..

1. Congress Poland didn't have Greater Poland - it was Prussian.
2. Hanover, after Congress of Vienna had lands around Ems river (between Netherlands and Oldenburg)
3. Free City of Cracov wasn't shown in your map.
4. What did you do to Vallachia? What was with halving it?
5. and also - there are no islands just by the Hel Penisula (north of Gdansk)

Looking at the map, the borders between the Netherlands, Liege, Prussia, Antwerp, Luxembourg and France seem a bit strange, I am not sure what it is.

 

[LordKalvan]

Kaiser Ferdinand was visited on the 6th March by Metternich, who informed him that Batthyany had declared Hungarian independence. The feeble-minded Kaiser's response was "Ja, aber darf er das?", a fairly representative illustration of his inability to truly comprehend what was going on. What he did realise, however, was that Metternich was not in a good way. His cherished System was irretrievably damaged- he was physically shaking as he told the Kaiser what had happened. He now had no ability to control Hungary. An overture to Nicholas I of Russia for aid was shortly to be refused, as Nicholas's armies were demoralised and depleted after the Northern War.

The Regent's Council had also noticed this. On the 11th March, they formally asked for Metternich to resign, citing his total failure to safeguard the territorial integrity of Austria, especially in northern Italy. Under severe pressure, he acquiesced and retreated to his estate at Johannesberg. The Council had decided that a military man was needed in the face of such a crisis, if they were to salvage anything from the conflict. That man would be the new Minister President of Austria.

That man was Marshal Josef Radetzky.

Radetzky??
Allow me to use again this emotikon:

Radetzky had always been (and IOTL will always be until retired at age 91) a military man, with little or no truck with politics.
While I do not intend to un derestimate his qualities in the military field, I'd guess you are creating another Soult: a man who is intimately convinced that bayonets are good for any and every thing (including sitting on them ).

The other "bad" side of this appointment is that you are taking from the Austrian army the only man who has some good ideas to renovate it and keep it on its toes.

I should suppose you know what you're doing: still it's pretty hard for me to believe that Radetzky can be instrumental to reaching a stable situation in Europe.

 

[wannis]

Hmmm... so you seem bent on a Franco-Prussian war more than 30 years early.
I'll state my case once more - that isn't what I would expect in this situation. Giving up on "German" territories like Aachen or admitting to the incorporation of Schleswig-Holstein into Denmark, or admitting defeat against a minnow like Bavaria would have been much more difficult for a romantic like FW IV (and also earning him much more criticism from Prussian nobles and officers, whom he would have to listen to) than admitting defeat against a big power (even if slightly shaken) like France, and ceding a recently acquired province in the old Spanish Netherlands like Liege would have been much less of a politial problem.
Anyway, I'll shut up now on this issue, sit back, and see how things develop. Promise.

 

[Wendell]

I allowed myself to redo the last posted map - there was a number of mistakes; which, BTW, made me think that you used the map for Napoleonic Europe after 1809 as a template..

1. Congress Poland didn't have Greater Poland - it was Prussian.
2. Hanover, after Congress of Vienna had lands around Ems river (between Netherlands and Oldenburg)
3. Free City of Cracov wasn't shown in your map.
4. What did you do to Vallachia? What was with halving it?
5. and also - there are no islands just by the Hel Penisula (north of Gdansk)

Maybe I missed something, but when did Galicia get attached to Hungary?

 

[Rockingham]

Maybe I missed something, but when did Galicia get attached to Hungary?

Its not, thats just Austrian outside the German Confed
Which contains a little less territory then shown on the map(as far as I'm aware, the German confederation didn't conclude the entire Istrian peninsula