What if Talleyrand's plan for the partition of Belgium between the powers concerned with its fate had been accepted? It's bound to have some rather interesting consequences, seeing how the British now have actual continental interests and the French-Prussian border has just been massively lengthened.
The Talleyrand Partition
- Thread starter FreezingShock
- Start date
Pretty difficult - how would people feel if West Germany proposed an Anschluss in 1960?
Maybe if the Belgian Revolution was a much more Francophone affair, pushing for unification with France, alienating the Flemish and had the military success to back it up, Britain and Prussia would see the Partition as the best option. Then again Prussia might just intervene on behalf of the Netherlands to maintain the union in line with Vienna.
1789 cast a long shadow.
If it did happen I doubt it would really effect Britain's role on the continent a great deal, though it does mean come the Scramble for Africa, a British protectorate certainly won't be chosen as the arbiter of Congo.
Also (many butterflies aside), Belgium isn't in a position to be battled over during a Franco-Prussian conflict.
Maybe if the Belgian Revolution was a much more Francophone affair, pushing for unification with France, alienating the Flemish and had the military success to back it up, Britain and Prussia would see the Partition as the best option. Then again Prussia might just intervene on behalf of the Netherlands to maintain the union in line with Vienna.
1789 cast a long shadow.
If it did happen I doubt it would really effect Britain's role on the continent a great deal, though it does mean come the Scramble for Africa, a British protectorate certainly won't be chosen as the arbiter of Congo.
Also (many butterflies aside), Belgium isn't in a position to be battled over during a Franco-Prussian conflict.
Which was, according to a biography of Talleyrand that I read a couple of years ago, one of the reasons why the British goverment rejected that plan...
Apperently there also existed the Talleyrand-Wellington plan, which basicly gave the Netherlands Flanders (except the province of Brabant), France Wallonia and created an independent Luxemburg (including Belgian Luxemburg). That would get rid of the British continental interests and still avoided the Flemish coast becoming French. It always seems to me a very interesting scenario.
Still I have my doubts that plan realy existed. If I google it I only get the (Dutch) wikipedia page and the threat I created about the plan on this site. I would like to see a another source for it.
I still think the best talleyrand partion plan is his head goes to england, his bowels to france, his heart to elba, one leg to prussia, the other austria, his chest to russia an various arm bits to the minor german and italian states.
That was madness...Signed.
In general maybe if dealing with a different beat, maybe the parition can be happen... maybe oferring a little more to prussia as a counter-balance to france?(at that year, were the first seed to the franco-german eminity)
Probably one of the more sensible options (although the borders may need to change slightly - do they actually represent real demographics, or is there some aggrandizement there?), but I don't see a Free State of Antwerp lasting long. Makes more sense to give the area to the Dutch entirely. The only reason for giving it to Britain would be to alay British fears that the Flemish ports could be used to stage an invasion of Britain. I presume eventually there could be found other ways - perhaps by a guarantee on Dutch neutrality by all powers.
Hello Blackfox,
It could if Britain formally guaranteed its independence - perhaps even with a British garrison.
The Talleyrand Plan seems unlikely for the reasons it didn't happen, i.e., distrust of France in general and Talleyrand in particular. But it's not completely impossible. If the Hundred Days doesn't happen . . . or if ethnic resentments are stronger. . . carving up the baby wasn't completely unlikely.
The butterflies would be profound. Prussia would have a far larger front on which to attack in 1870, but the end result - French defeat - would be the same. The question would be whether Moltke would demand territorial concessions along the Meuse to complement Alsace Lorraine. My guess is not - Bismark was keen to keep the number of Francophones in the Empire to a minimum. At worst, perhaps the high ground on the west bank of the river around Liege and Eben.
The real departure, of course, would be World War I. The Germans no longer have any Belgian neutrality to violate in attacking across the plains of Belgium, while conversely, the French have a much longer border to fortify. This would have major impacts on the war planning of both states. British intervention seems less likely in such a circumstance, but still not impossible. Grey would have to work harder, however, to find a formal casus belli to justify his real interest, which was preventing German domination of France.
It could if Britain formally guaranteed its independence - perhaps even with a British garrison.
The Talleyrand Plan seems unlikely for the reasons it didn't happen, i.e., distrust of France in general and Talleyrand in particular. But it's not completely impossible. If the Hundred Days doesn't happen . . . or if ethnic resentments are stronger. . . carving up the baby wasn't completely unlikely.
The butterflies would be profound. Prussia would have a far larger front on which to attack in 1870, but the end result - French defeat - would be the same. The question would be whether Moltke would demand territorial concessions along the Meuse to complement Alsace Lorraine. My guess is not - Bismark was keen to keep the number of Francophones in the Empire to a minimum. At worst, perhaps the high ground on the west bank of the river around Liege and Eben.
The real departure, of course, would be World War I. The Germans no longer have any Belgian neutrality to violate in attacking across the plains of Belgium, while conversely, the French have a much longer border to fortify. This would have major impacts on the war planning of both states. British intervention seems less likely in such a circumstance, but still not impossible. Grey would have to work harder, however, to find a formal casus belli to justify his real interest, which was preventing German domination of France.
Hello xgentis,
Well, actually, I don't.
But there's pretty good odds that there would be another Franco-German war at some point; and an enveloping attack was the natural result of German general staff thinking, and the growing size of the German army.
Well, actually, I don't.
But there's pretty good odds that there would be another Franco-German war at some point; and an enveloping attack was the natural result of German general staff thinking, and the growing size of the German army.