Hello! This is my first post on here after reading countless alternate timelines. I have been researching this idea on and off for about a month and I have just plucked up the courage to post. Any idea’s, help, critiques and so fourth are most welcome.


George, Duke of Bedford, third son of King Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville was born in March 1447, but died just two years later in 1479 from the plague.


When Edward IV dies in 1483, George, had he survived, would have been just six years old. In trying to find a way for George to not only have lived past his death in OTL but also the reign of his uncle, King Richard III, I came up with an idea.


George, known to have been sickly from a young age, was sent from court at the age of four or five to live in the country, where it was thought he would grow stronger, away from the constant bouts of sickness in London. He is sent perhaps to live with Thomas Grey, Marquess of Dorset, his half brother, at Gleaston Castle (cared for whilst Thomas returns to court by Thomas’s wife, Cecily Bonville). Living at Gleaston, which is in the North West of England, by the sea, helps him massively (though bouts of sickness do still plague him). Upon his father’s death on the 9th of April 1483, George is away from court, unlike his younger brother, Richard of Shrewsbury, Duke of York. Richard, Duke of Gloucester (future King Richard III), who was at York at the time, if I remember correctly, immediately travels south to take control of the situation. He meets the now King Edward V on the road from Ludlow and takes the young King into his custody and puts him in the tower of London, for his safety. After much persuasion Elizabeth Woodville agree’s to allow his younger brother, Richard of Shrewsbury, to join Edward in the Tower.


As we do not know the intentions of Richard III when he set off south, whether his plan all along was to find a way to become King himself or if he actually intended to crown Edward but truly believed the issue of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville’s illegitimate, we will likely never know. However, if for instance he initially planned to crown his nephew King Edward V, then it is very likely that his youngest nephew, George, who resides at Gleaston, much further North than York, is an after thought, and Richards focus is in the south with his eldest nephew and perhaps the ‘spare’.


It is very plausible that when Richard decides to take the throne, he does order Thomas, Marquess of Dorset (who was absent at the time of Edward IV’s death and was instead at Gleaston with little Prince George) to bring Prince George south so he may join his brothers in the tower, and also very plausible that Elizabeth Woodville would agree to this, as she had also agreed to her second son joining her eldest in the Tower. But, very quickly it became perfectly clear that the Woodville’s, and by extension, the Princes were not safe. Thomas would be very, very hesitant to travel south after his younger brother, Sir Richard Grey and his uncle Anthony, Earl Rivers, were executed on the 25th of June 1483. Perhaps he replies to the summons by saying that George is sick and the journey could kill him. It is very likely that Richard would send someone up to Gleaston to take control of the situation and watch over Prince George, pretty much putting him under house arrest. George, perhaps not even sick at the time (the excuse given by Thomas Grey), is ordered to fake his ailments. I expect that the arrival of Richards men would have sent Thomas Grey fleeing for the hills (perhaps not any time to escape with little George). OR by the time Richard’s men have arrived, Thomas and George have escaped (depending on if this is before or after the rumours of the murders of the princes in the tower, which I believe started to circulate by late summer).


However, either way, George and Thomas manage to escape (either Thomas returns for him or they initially flee together) with the help of Sir Edward Woodville, uncle to Prince George, who travels in ships he commandeered from the English naval fleet during the Woodville/Gloucester power struggle. As the Castle is surrounded by beaches and means of escape by water, this plan is successful.


Now, this is where I struggled a little bit (if any of this is even plausible or remotely believable, as I do not actually know if George being sent to Gleaston castle is realistic in the first place). By this time I would think it is about autumn 1483 and there is no clear place to go for Sir Edward Woodville, Thomas Grey and George. Burgundy, a future haven for Yorkist exiles, is loyal to King Richard. Margaret, Duchess of Burgundy despised Elizabeth Woodville (if I remember rightly) and sided with her brother (it was not until Henry Tudor’s ascension to the throne that Margaret supported the claim of her nephew ‘Richard of Shrewsbury’, Perkin Warbeck). Then, there is Brittany which still houses Henry Tudor, even though Edward V, George’s older brother, was betrothed to the Duke of Brittany’s daughter, Anne of Brittany.


I think perhaps the most obvious place they would go is Ireland, as it is not far across the sea from Furness, where Gleaston Castle is. However, is there even anyone in Ireland who would take them in and go against King Richard? Or, there is Scotland, ruled by King James III, who was seen as very much pro-English by his subjects, but his reign at the time was very precarious and an uprising very likely. Is it likely he would offer them sanctuary?


I am looking for a way to have George survive and eventually take the throne of England, however, to do so, my first hurdle is find a safe place for them to live and bide their time, especially after King Richard passes Titulus Regius in parliament, declaring the children of Elizabeth Woodville and Edward IV as bastards.


(Side Note: If this was to happen, the people would know that George, Duke of Bedford, survives, unlike his brothers. This means that it is likely that Henry Tudor would not get the same amount of support for his claim from France and Brittany and the disgruntled Yorkist's who have fled from Richard III. Also, Elizabeth of York would not marry Henry Tudor, as she has been declared a bastard and to reverse Titulus Regius, as he did in OTL, would mean that her brother has a better claim than he does).


Any idea’s?
 
Last edited:
Some thoughts...
I have had some thoughts that I would like to share….



1- I think an alliance between Henry Tudor and George Bedford is plausible. Henry would be facing the possibility of remaining in exile all his life with the continuing survival of Richard III and George Bedford. The throne is not as open for the taking at it was in OTL. In fact, it is pretty unlikely that the Battle of Bosworth, or a battle like this, would happen at all. I think an alliance between George (The Woodville-Yorks) and the remnants of House Lancaster could happen pretty early on. A loyal member of the Woodville-York faction travels to Brittany or the French Court and treats with Henry Tudor. If Henry fights on their side, he will be restored to Earl of Richmond, as will his uncle, Jasper, be restored to Earl of Pembroke. He will be back in the line of succession, given a position at court and on the Privy council, the Lancastrians pardoned and restored (within reason). And, I think this would look like a pretty sweet deal to Henry, who I imagine is desperate to return home (Edward IV was in the process of offering him a similar deal if I am not mistaken).


There could be more clauses to this ‘treaty’, it could be incredibly wrung out and such so both side believes they are getting from the other what they wish. I imagine that Jasper Tudor may be more reluctant than Henry to give in to the Woodville-Yorks, but I think he could be persuaded. The point being, I do not think this is so far fetched. I also think future unrest or uprisings from the Lancastrians who have been accepted back in England is pretty likely. They may just agree to join forces so that they have help defeating Richard, then they may see George as easy prey as he is just a boy.


2- Thinking on George Bedford’s and Thomas Grey’s flight from Gleaston, I am leaning more towards Scotland, than Ireland. Initially, any way. James III had no love for Richard and was a serious Anglophile (at least that is the conclusion I have come to after reading up on him). In OTL, he was in the middle of arranging a marriage between himself and Elizabeth Woodville and Cecily of York and his son, James, Duke of Ross, when he died. So, I think something similar could happen in this new timeline. Perhaps he and Elizabeth Woodville do marry and he supports her son. Even with Scottish support (the support may still be pretty weak as King James’ subjects were pretty sick of his pro-anglo policy), the Scots were not renowned for their military expertise or even any success, especially during the WotR. So a Scottish alliance may show strength outwardly, but it may not be as such when it comes to the actual war.


Also, in OTL King James III died in battle in June 1488, after a rebellion lead by disatisfied nobles, his own son, future James IV, the figurehead of the army. Now, this could very well butterfly the rebellion away, or maybe even accelerate it to happening much earlier. Elizabeth Woodville was a very ambitious woman, and I think if she did marry James for the sake of her son, she would see the flaws in his reign and know that an alliance with his son, James IV, may not serve her as well (he is not such a pro-English King as his father). Maybe Elizabeth could have a good affect on James III, try and help him, persuade him to travel to deliver justice and be seen by his subjects (a major complaint amongst his people) or help distance him from his undesirable favourites. Elizabeth wasn’t a fool and I would think she could quickly recognise where he was going wrong and would have the foresight to see how this would affect her and her sons cause.


3) Elizabeth of York was welcomed back at court by her uncle, King Richard, along with her sister, Cecily, in 1484. Elizabeth is inside the lion’s den so to speak. I think it likely Elizabeth Woodville would flee from Westminster and travel to Scotland around this time, with her three younger daughters: Anne, Catherine and Bridget, with various other loyalists. I know that Elizabeth of York was incredibly fond of her uncle, and he and his wife, Anne, were incredibly fond of her (or if you believe Philippa Gregory, they were in love with other another). I cannot get a grasp on the personality of Elizabeth of York, as well as I have been able to when reading about others during this period. When reading of her, she seems quite changeable at times. However, for the sake of this TL, let us say that she is 100% loyal to her younger brother, George. I imagine she and Cecily would be closely watched by Richard’s men and their ladies out of fear of them rallying support for their brother at court. Elizabeth and Cecily could possibly be the Woodville-York factions eyes and ears at court.


In OTL, King Richard planned to marry Elizabeth to Manuel of Portugal, future King Manuel I of Portugal. I am torn whether these plans would take place and even come to fruition in this TL. On the one hand, Manuel was not expected to inherit the throne of Portugal and thus an alliance between George Bedford and him may not seem a threat to King Richard, especially since he planned to marry Joanna, Princess of Portugal, who was sister of the then King. On the other hand, Richard may want to keep Elizabeth close in England, as Manuel may offer to house young George, perhaps give him money for his cause. I cannot tell whether the risk outways the rewards for Richard, any thoughts?


4- Deciding on marriage prospects for George Bedford is fairly difficult at this point, because I am not 100% sure where this timeline will take me, only that George will end up as King of England. I think an obvious match would be Anne of Brittany (they are the same age and she was betrothed to his older brother, Edward V, prior to his death in OTL), however, I do not think George is as a desirable match as his brother, as he is a King living in exile, labelled a bastard and disinherited. Francis II of Brittany was looking for support against the French and the assurance that Brittany would not fall into French hands when he made the betrothal. George is not in a position to protect Brittany like his brother was, so its likely that the betrothal would not originally go ahead. If it was to go ahead later on, it would have to be before 1490, when Anne married Maximilian I by proxy at Rennes. There is little possibility of her marrying George after the annulment of this marriage in 1492 because she was at this time already in the hands of Charles VIII of France and was forced into marrying him instead. This prospect entirely depends on when George takes back the throne.


In exile, its possible George will marry elsewhere as the Woodville-York faction will need allies who have armies and gold and so fourth to support and protect them. I did think of matches in Scotland, but I feel it more likely that Elizabeth Woodville would marry James III and perhaps Anne of York would marry James, Duke of Rothesay (future King James IV). With alliances already made in Scotland, they may look to Scotlands old friend, France. This would probably be an unpopular alliance with the English and even members of the Woodville-York faction. French Queens do not have the best reputations (Margaret of Anjou, Catherine of Valois, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Isabella of France…) and are rarely well liked by the people. And, I am finding it hard to find a suitable bride for George, one who is similar in age, not too high born (as there is a lack of them, plus I do not think Charles would give an exiled King such a desirable wife) or one who is not too low born, already married etc (the usual problems).


A Portuguese match is out as Richard is already in negotiations and by this time he may have succeeded in marrying Joanna of Portugal, as is a Habsburg match. If I remember correctly, Margaret of York and Maximilian, her former Stepson-in-law, were on good terms and were friendly towards one another and she would steer him away from an alliance with the Woodville-Yorks. Plus, Maximillian aimed to expand the influence of the Habsburg’s at this time, and an alliance with George Bedford would not benefit him.




I am slowly putting this together and would love any help. Questions are welcome, as are suggestions and so on.
 
Welcome to the board.

1) I think a Tudor-Wydeville alliance is unlikely in this scenario. Tudor was pretty much viewed as a gag candidate by everyone before he became king, and by some afterwards. OTL Tudor got into the position he did by dint of other candidates. Here, no marriage to Liz of York + one of Edward IV's sons surviving means he probably won't get into such a position.

PS: We can debate endlessly about whether Henry Tudor had a claim to the throne or not - yes, mom was a Beaufort, BUT Beauforts were barred from the succession. And if he HAD claimed the throne via the Beauforts his mom should've been Queen-Regnant, not him. He was king by right of conquest. Here, the Edwardian Yorkists aren't going to support some 80lb soaking wet candidate with a pretty vague claim to the throne, they're going for the duke of Bedford.

4) As to marriage prospects for George, it obviously depends when he takes his throne back. In 1485 he's 8yo. Unless he's channeling Edward of Westminster, he's not going to be leading armies against Richard. However, if a faction in England rises up and sends Richard packing, provided Edward of Middleham has died, George is the logical choice for a king - since your 3 candidates are 1) George, duke of Bedford (bastard according to the Titulus Regius); 2) Edward, earl of Warwick (barred by dad's attainder IIRC) and 3) John, earl of Lincoln (legitimate, but through a woman).

As to marriage candidates: Juana/Maria of Aragon (Isabel of Castile was ambivalent towards the Yorkist court, she disliked Edward IV and never forgot that she was rejected in favour of a "widow of England", but she had no objections to talks about her daughter marrying Richard of Shrewsbury/Edward of Middleham; on the contrary, it was her husband who was not in favour of it); Margaret of Austria (dodgy, since Margaret of York is her step-grandmother, but if Richard III's removed from the picture, George is preferable to Tudor); Charlotte of Naples (most likely, since she's royal but her dad's not a king, and she's in France); Anne of Brittany (if George is restored before Frañsez II kicks, since AFAIK, the Titulus Regius was never widely accepted outside of England); or some Yorkist lord's daughter/sister (poor choice)
 
I did go back and fourth about a Tudor/Woodville alliance, but I thought that if the Woodville-York's were to try and allie themselves with others on the continent, the closest being Brittany and France, they may have to play nice, since there were many who sympathised with the exiled Lancastrians, like Henry and Jasper Tudor. As you said, Henry Tudor appears to be a very weak threat with a very weak, questionable claim. He does however have support from the like of the Earl of Oxford. I think there may come a point where any support is good support. However, that all depends if they are desperate enough to try and ally themselves with France. As the Woodvilles were so unpopular, I can see even those within England who want to or do support young George being slightly put off, as due to George's age, it would really be the Woodville's ruling. And, I cannot see any diplomacy or politics going incredibly well, since looking at their camp, the highest ranking amoung them is Thomas Grey, Marquess of Dorset, who was mediocre (at best).

Of corse, that all depends on who does join them, the obvious being: Sir Edward Woodville and Richard Woodville, 3rd Earl Rivers. I think these two would be in exile with Liz Woodville, her youngest daughters and George. But I struggle to really find true allies and supporters of the Woodvilles who would put their necks out. As there were no uprisings in support of the Woodville's during this time, it is hard to figure out who would come to their aid now. Even though it is to place George on the throne, if Elizabeth feels threatened, like they are going to try and take over and rule through her son (her and her family pushed out), she is going to try and find support else where (in my head she may be slightly more abitious than she actually was, but I do think this is a woman who would stop at nothing to see a child of hers on the throne of England, for no other reason that to keep her power). Also, the second any Lords come to their cause, their lands will probably be confiscated and given to someone else, meaning that they could end up being pretty useless allies. I am hoping that even though Thomas Grey goes into exile, Cecily Bonville and their children do keep their lands due to the familiarity Richard has to her mother, who he took under his protection after excecuting William Hastings (maybe for Thomas to swoop in at some point and raise men with the help of his son).

I think a potential ally (eventually) is Henry Stafford, 2nd Duke of Buckingham. He becomes disenchanted with Richard in OTL and he is married to Catherine Woodville, Liz's youngest sister. However, I think him coming to their side would take some time and when he does, he will proclaim himself Regent for George until he is of age and will fight to pretty much put himself on the throne (until George is of age). This would be a huge problem for Elizabeth as he had no love for her or her family, but it also may be better for George. With Buckingham standing with them, I think more nobles would be willing to put themselves at risk and fight for George.

In regards to George's marriage prospects, I like the idea of Charlotte of Naples, but I love the idea of Maria of Aragon. Not only would it be a 'what would have been' in regards to their parents (who I both love), but in OTL she married Manuel I of Portugal, and if a marriage between him and Lizzie of York did go ahead, Maria marrying George would wrap all that up in a neat little bow.
 
Top