The Sun, The Stars and The Sickle: Alt-WWII and a Tripolar Postwar World
- Thread starter WaterproofPotatoes
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If this goes as well as the future turn out of TL implies it going I look forward to Eichmann being forever known as a horrible screw up that failed upwards and basically gave the game away with two key German allies and ensured that nothing close to their goals were accomplished.
How long until Bose starts wondering if he should have kept trying his luck with the Japanese or even the British?
That plays a part (and deliberate misinformation and selection bias fill in the rest), but a lot of his optimism can also be attributed to finally having a receptive ally. The successes the Pact of Steel is having in the Soviet Union and Burma further fuels this.
Given how well Nazi Germany treats her allies, that is anyone's guess. Chiang certainly won't do anything to help him.
It's annoying... I'm Rereading the Story again because Frankly I love it.... But there is still that One Bit that Just rangles me.................. Damn you Bismark! you should not have physically been able to do that!
Breath In, Breath Out...... I'm still gonna re read it because despite that one bit It's Still. One. Of. THE. Single. Best. Stories. I. Have. Ever. Had. The. Fortune. Of. Reading!!!
Just saying that.... Thanks WaterProof for the Wonderful Story, Because the Lore on it Is brilliant. The Story is Fantastic, and this is the first story I have Re-Read in Years!
Breath In, Breath Out...... I'm still gonna re read it because despite that one bit It's Still. One. Of. THE. Single. Best. Stories. I. Have. Ever. Had. The. Fortune. Of. Reading!!!
Just saying that.... Thanks WaterProof for the Wonderful Story, Because the Lore on it Is brilliant. The Story is Fantastic, and this is the first story I have Re-Read in Years!
That is a high honour indeed!
As for Bismarck, remember that Swiftsure is a 15 year old, 40 000 ton ship overdue for a refit, built to a design compromised by Washington and the Exchequer's office. Meanwhile, Bismarck is a 58 000 ton ship, brand new, and fighting completely in her element. Even then, it took destroyers and a U-Boat to finish Swiftsure off.
The effects are profound as well. There were approximately 1 200 survivors of Swiftsure's sinking, now scattered to other ships in the Royal Navy. These sailors could have easily been left to the mercy of the ocean, but they were not. England did not forget her own; Tovey declared "The Sea shall not have them!". 1 200 sailors, knowing that their service does not go unnoticed, and eager to get back at the lot who sunk their ship certainly does a lot for the pride of the Royal Navy. Many of them saw their revenge enacted while serving on the ships that made up Tiger Force, but for others, that was just the start...
I know, it's not so much that. I'm very patriotic, some would say excessively so. They'd probably be right in saying that. It's that reason why it bugs me so.
Besides that let us focus on the rest of the story.
The detail and depth is tremendously beautiful. I doubt there are quite so many stories that you can live quite comfortable there if you were dumped there with only the stories as a guide. Discworld might be the other.
The personalities are all perceptibly different and incredibly well written. There are many I would enjoy just sitting down and talking to. And many I can sit and despair at the road they've chosen for their country.
The details on the navies!!!! I've often just sat down imagining the navies fighting off other navies and the ships ship sailing past.
I admit it took me till the second read through to actually notice many of the smaller details but that's to be expected.
I can only hope you continue. My imagination is always asking for more content. And yours is a particular favourite that I like to indulge in on (more than) occasion.
Thank you, again! As ever, I'm just happy that people enjoy reading this TL as much as I enjoy writing it! I have no intention of stopping it anytime soon either!
I'm glad you enjoy the details as well! If charged with rivet counting I will plead guilty, but it was, after all, a naval treaty responsible for so much of the departures ITTL.
We're also at 99 threadmarks, and I'm working on the 100th now! The TL's anniversary is coming up too
Another Lovely Day in Rangoon
Headquarters of Lt. Gen. Bernard Montgomery
Rangoon, Burma
April 16th, 1942
1:31 PM
MONTY in the last few weeks, saw the situation go from tenuous to untenable. An April 1st promotion to the rank of Lieutenant General was the ultimate April Fool's joke. He had already held out longer than anyone would have expected, managing to stretch out Li's forces, thinning out his thrusts and delaying his advances. In the face of the mighty Chinese Dragon, Monty's forces managed to be everywhere and nowhere, forcing Li to stretch his supply lines. However, the National Army was just too large, and too well equipped. Li was a worthy adversary as well, with incredible tenacity and and ability to recover from miscalculations and learn from his mistakes.
Li, in addition to hundreds of thousands of men, also had thousands of tanks at his disposal, and thousands of aircraft. They ranged from Bf-109 and I-16 fighters, Stuka dive bombers and He-111 level bombers. The RAF had Spitfires and Wellingtons at their disposal, albeit in far more limited numbers. What few of the new Tornadoes could be spared were earmarked for Malaya.
Monty's forces, much like those under now-full General Percival's command in Malaya were very diverse, and came from all over the Empire. Many were British, but also included Indians, Burmese, New Zealanders, Gurkhas, and even Kenyans in the King's African Rifles. By God, thought Monty, we need them all and then some. These were not mere rabble; they were trained soldiers, many of whom were used to harsh and isolated conditions and minimal supplies. Li's troops were no less worthy- they were some of the best trained soldiers in the National Army, with trained, and now experienced officers and NCOs. The KAR in particular had distinguished themselves in the fierce fighting and took heavy losses, their officer corps in particular. This meant that for the first time, black Africans were granted officers' commissions, up to the rank of captain.
Off Rangoon, the Allies maintained a considerable naval presence. Admiral Tamon Yamaguchi, with his flag in the battleship Kaga, commanded a fleet comprising the battleship Mutsu, the battlecruiser Haruna, the hybrid carriers Ise, Fuso and Yamashiro and carrier Takao, along with cruisers, destroyers and auxiliaries. The Royal Navy was present as well, with Rear Admiral Louis Mountbatten commanding the battleship Howe and carrier Victorious, along with cruisers and destroyers of his own.
The aircraft carried were a mixed assortment. Takao carried a mixture of Zeroes and B5Ns, the latter usually operating as level bombers as there was no need for torpedoes. The hybrids' capacity was much more limited. Their primary aircraft were D3A dive bombers, strengthened to take the short shots of their catapults; their slow landing speeds also allowing them to land on the hybrids' shorter decks. The hybrids also tended to float-equipped Zeroes, which while less effective than their conventional counterparts, were nonetheless appreciated. Victorious rostered Sea Hurricanes and Skuas, the latter operating as dive bombers. They were good, these pilots, and Yamaguchi would keep sending them until the magazines were empty
Monty now looked upwards in the direction of the sound of aircraft. It was Yamaguchi's boys, off on another sortie against Li's rapidly closing armies. It was a mere drop in the bucket, but anything helped now. The situation was down to a matter of days rather than a matter of weeks. It was getting far too close to the uncomfortable realization that evacuation would have to take place. Monty had done everything he could to stretch Li's lines out and delay the inevitable, but there was nowhere left to go. The rear was now the front. The last thing he wanted to do was give the order and begin pulling back towards Malaya, leaving the door to India ready for Li to batter on.
He looked at the casualty report in front of him, then looked up at a staff major.
"Fitzgibbon" he began "Tell Percival that the situation cannot hold, and that I am giving the order to evacuate any and all nonessential personnel. That, and if he has any objections, full General or not, he can refer them to Brooke, because I'm not bloody interested!"
Rangoon, Burma
April 16th, 1942
1:31 PM
MONTY in the last few weeks, saw the situation go from tenuous to untenable. An April 1st promotion to the rank of Lieutenant General was the ultimate April Fool's joke. He had already held out longer than anyone would have expected, managing to stretch out Li's forces, thinning out his thrusts and delaying his advances. In the face of the mighty Chinese Dragon, Monty's forces managed to be everywhere and nowhere, forcing Li to stretch his supply lines. However, the National Army was just too large, and too well equipped. Li was a worthy adversary as well, with incredible tenacity and and ability to recover from miscalculations and learn from his mistakes.
Li, in addition to hundreds of thousands of men, also had thousands of tanks at his disposal, and thousands of aircraft. They ranged from Bf-109 and I-16 fighters, Stuka dive bombers and He-111 level bombers. The RAF had Spitfires and Wellingtons at their disposal, albeit in far more limited numbers. What few of the new Tornadoes could be spared were earmarked for Malaya.
Monty's forces, much like those under now-full General Percival's command in Malaya were very diverse, and came from all over the Empire. Many were British, but also included Indians, Burmese, New Zealanders, Gurkhas, and even Kenyans in the King's African Rifles. By God, thought Monty, we need them all and then some. These were not mere rabble; they were trained soldiers, many of whom were used to harsh and isolated conditions and minimal supplies. Li's troops were no less worthy- they were some of the best trained soldiers in the National Army, with trained, and now experienced officers and NCOs. The KAR in particular had distinguished themselves in the fierce fighting and took heavy losses, their officer corps in particular. This meant that for the first time, black Africans were granted officers' commissions, up to the rank of captain.
Off Rangoon, the Allies maintained a considerable naval presence. Admiral Tamon Yamaguchi, with his flag in the battleship Kaga, commanded a fleet comprising the battleship Mutsu, the battlecruiser Haruna, the hybrid carriers Ise, Fuso and Yamashiro and carrier Takao, along with cruisers, destroyers and auxiliaries. The Royal Navy was present as well, with Rear Admiral Louis Mountbatten commanding the battleship Howe and carrier Victorious, along with cruisers and destroyers of his own.
The aircraft carried were a mixed assortment. Takao carried a mixture of Zeroes and B5Ns, the latter usually operating as level bombers as there was no need for torpedoes. The hybrids' capacity was much more limited. Their primary aircraft were D3A dive bombers, strengthened to take the short shots of their catapults; their slow landing speeds also allowing them to land on the hybrids' shorter decks. The hybrids also tended to float-equipped Zeroes, which while less effective than their conventional counterparts, were nonetheless appreciated. Victorious rostered Sea Hurricanes and Skuas, the latter operating as dive bombers. They were good, these pilots, and Yamaguchi would keep sending them until the magazines were empty
Monty now looked upwards in the direction of the sound of aircraft. It was Yamaguchi's boys, off on another sortie against Li's rapidly closing armies. It was a mere drop in the bucket, but anything helped now. The situation was down to a matter of days rather than a matter of weeks. It was getting far too close to the uncomfortable realization that evacuation would have to take place. Monty had done everything he could to stretch Li's lines out and delay the inevitable, but there was nowhere left to go. The rear was now the front. The last thing he wanted to do was give the order and begin pulling back towards Malaya, leaving the door to India ready for Li to batter on.
He looked at the casualty report in front of him, then looked up at a staff major.
"Fitzgibbon" he began "Tell Percival that the situation cannot hold, and that I am giving the order to evacuate any and all nonessential personnel. That, and if he has any objections, full General or not, he can refer them to Brooke, because I'm not bloody interested!"
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Yatta
Donor
Kind of, but less explodey. The only reference I could find for a system like this is from before WWI by the Russians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_Pochtovy
Though this was using compressed air.
I was thinking maybe the O2 Tanks could be slung on the bottom of the submarine, so that it would be more likely for the tanks to rupture into the ocean.
Also, since the submarine recycles the exhaust, there would be no wake as in the case of the Pochtovy.
This should make it so that the subs can make high speed underwater for a longer period of time.
EDIT: This should also be safer than the HTP that the Explorer type submarines used, because anything is probably safer than putting a rocket engine in a submarine.
Though this was using compressed air.
Also, since the submarine recycles the exhaust, there would be no wake as in the case of the Pochtovy.
This should make it so that the subs can make high speed underwater for a longer period of time.
EDIT: This should also be safer than the HTP that the Explorer type submarines used, because anything is probably safer than putting a rocket engine in a submarine.
That, and the Chinese have the bodies to simply bury him with, something neither or both the Germans and the Italians could in North Africa IOTL.
That is indeed part of it, but Monty and the Allies would be learning the wrong lesson if they chalked it up to just numbers.
Li Zhongren is one of the National Army's most capable commanders, unlike KMT cronies like Chongren Chen who would just try to bury Monty in bodies. Li is cognizant of the fact that his closest major supply depot is Kunming, which isn't exactly close to the Burmese coast. He must advance over a broad front, and through difficult terrain, which must be done slowly and methodically so his supply lines are not cut. As much as Chiang urges, Li cannot simply make a dash for the coast, which is why the campaign is one that takes months rather than weeks. Li's forces will also not be easy to dislodge.
Monty's task TTL is a lot harder. His supplies come via the port of Rangoon, and thus limited by its throughput and lower priority than Malaya, or over not particularly good roads from India. It is much harder to stretch Li's lines vis OTL Rommel's, as Li has such a commanding numerical advantage, and is employing a broad-front strategy. If Monty manages to squeeze back a salient or form a pocket in Li's lines, chances are there is an equal yet opposite reaction elsewhere.
Monty, with his careful maneuvering and picking at Li's weak points, wherever they are, has allowed him to hold out longer than many have expected, leading to the ultimately false hope that he could have done so indefinitely. "Vinegar Joe" Stilwell would have lost Burma long ago.
The coming weeks will not be easy for Monty- it is much harder to supply his forces on the trip down the Kra Isthmus than the shorter retreat into India would be, but his seasoned troops are needed far more in Malaya. It is also hoped by the Allies that it is there where Li's forces are drawn into the Tiger's jaws before they reach Singapore.
It's a case of two very good generals both playing the hands they were dealt very well, and one that is likely to be wargamed at military academies postwar, throughout the world.
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That is definitely interesting, and possibly a paper project being worked up by the IJN, but one that will not be seen off the drawing board until after WWII. For now, the IJN has a lot of projects to digest:
-The Mitsubishi A7M large carrier fighter, Aichi B7A (slightly larger TTL with a 52' wingspan, designed to carry a 1 000 kg torpedo) carrier strike bomber and Nakajima G8N heavy bomber are all in the prototype stages now and are expected to enter service in 1943. All types rely on new large, powerful radial engines, developed with British engineering assistance. Farther off are the Nakajima G10N "Fugaku" superheavy bomber and a jet program.
-The four Ashitaka class battlecruisers have been laid down; the high wear on the aged Kongous prevents any further delays.
-The design for the two Yamakuni class light cruisers has been finalized, finally. Originally intended to to be a relatively straightforward design built on an Ooyodo hull with a more conventional configuration, the design morphed into a 15-gun, 700'+ ship on a hull of its own. This too was rejected for being too complicated. Instead, the design that was laid down in late 1941 was a 665' ship on a stretched Ooyodo hull with 5 x 2 155mm/L60 guns, 3 turrets fore, 2 aft. The turrets and cradles were developed with French assistance, despite outwardly appearing similar to (but taller than) the traditional triple with the centre gun missing. However, these turrets allow the guns to be elevated to 85°, and the extra space in the turret allows for more powerful motors for faster train and elevation and power ramming. They utilize many of the lessons learned from the turrets on the Richelieu class battleships and La Galissonnière class light cruisers. In addition to these features, the Yamakunis also carry two floatplanes and a catapult; and the two 4-tube reloadable torpedo launchers their Agano class predecessors carried.
-The final Taihou class carrier, Kaimon ("Sea Gate") was originally to be constructed as a fleet support carrier with much larger maintenance and supply facilities and a comparitively small airwing, hence the different naming convention- fleet carriers are typically named after flying creatures. The IJN believed this to be a waste for such a large carrier, and ordered her built like her sisters. Instead, either Hosho will be reconfigured for this role or one of the later Unryuus built for it.
-The I-201 long-range diesel-electric attack sub and I-400 carrier sub programs are going ahead as well, along with the Ohka flying bomb for the latter.
The IJN has basically its entire wishlist checked off, and that is a challenge in and of itself. Navy Minister Yonai and now Admiral of the Fleet Nagano's skilled maneuvering managed to get all of this approved by the Diet, but that doesn't do much to alleviate the yard bottlenecks or the fact that the design bureaus are up to their eyeballs in work. The navy really can't ask for more, even if they wanted to. There are no more major fleet units planned to be laid down for 1943, 44 or 45- as of now, the Yamato class battleships and Taihou class carriers are prioritized for completion. Numbers for new kaibokan have actually been reduced, with older destroyers instead being assigned to ASW.
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I guess that you kinda pointed at one possible solution to at least one of the problems, that of design bureaus being overwhelmed: the experience sharing with the French might come a bit further, assuming that some of their design teams have been extracted, either before the invasion or afterwards. You could have French designers working in Japan on various elements that are similar enough between the navies to free Japanese personel for the most critical and confidential parts.
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