The Sun, The Stars and The Sickle: Alt-WWII and a Tripolar Postwar World

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That's downright staggering. That means they can have over 200 deployed on war patrol at once. What major project got less funding pre-war to allow for this.

Notably, there were no H-39 class battleships drawn up or prototyped, nor any battlecruiser/small battleship proposals beyond the Scharnhorsts entertained. Graf Zeppelin also was much farther from completion than OTL. Without Norway, no heavy water or A-bomb research developing from it is happening either.

They're probably not getting sunk as quickly because they have less encounters with any Allied shipping because they're based in Germany still.

This too.

With no bases in France, their range is a lot more restricted, and they are also the one thing the RN truly fears.

This 680 is not just Type VII attack boats. It includes a lot more Type II coastal subs than OTL, and long-range transport and minelayers, with some intended to travel to China.
 
If they have longer-legged boats capable of operating in the Atlantic on convoy attacks, then 680 should bring England to her knees.

OTL at the height of the U-Boat war, Doneitz only had 100 submarines which equated to about 35 on station / operations at any time. With that number he brought England to her knees.

Applying the same ratio as that (33% build / repair, 33% transit to operations / training, 33% on station and operations), then there should be some 200 U-Boats engaged in combat operations which should be more than enough to obliterate the convoy system.

OTL Doneitz wanted 300 boats before the war so that he could have 100 at sea in combat ops against the RN (We are lucky Hitler chose a surface fleet).

With 200 here, England / Convoys are F*CKED!
 
If they have longer-legged boats capable of operating in the Atlantic on convoy attacks, then 680 should bring England to her knees.

OTL at the height of the U-Boat war, Doneitz only had 100 submarines which equated to about 35 on station / operations at any time. With that number he brought England to her knees.

Applying the same ratio as that (33% build / repair, 33% transit to operations / training, 33% on station and operations), then there should be some 200 U-Boats engaged in combat operations which should be more than enough to obliterate the convoy system.

OTL Doneitz wanted 300 boats before the war so that he could have 100 at sea in combat ops against the RN (We are lucky Hitler chose a surface fleet).

With 200 here, England / Convoys are F*CKED!

Oh my.

I checked my notes and... it probably would have helped had I not used the figure for total # of U-Boote produced during the war years as all being in service as of 1942.

I'm certainly grateful my readership is good at noticing these things!

160 is more like it, with 40 being coastal subs.
 
That still brings the number up to 120 long-legged subs. But the failure of the surface fleet-and the general state of it and it's reputation-may cause a shift in strategic priorities, as Hitler may see the Kriegsmarine as no longer worth the resources it is using. For example, if only those resources were used for the subjugation of the üntermensch in the east...Thinks Hitler, because until now, the bigger Kriegsmarine policy has only succeeded in more steel being sent to the bottom to the ocean, and the Heer was only stopped just on the doorstep of Moscow and if I remember right there was even fighting in the city itself.
 
That still brings the number up to 120 long-legged subs. But the failure of the surface fleet-and the general state of it and it's reputation-may cause a shift in strategic priorities, as Hitler may see the Kriegsmarine as no longer worth the resources it is using. For example, if only those resources were used for the subjugation of the üntermensch in the east...Thinks Hitler, because until now, the bigger Kriegsmarine policy has only succeeded in more steel being sent to the bottom to the ocean, and the Heer was only stopped just on the doorstep of Moscow and if I remember right there was even fighting in the city itself.

Of that, the majority are the Type VII, and fewer but far from non significant are the Type IX long-range boats.

Production on the whole is lower than OTL, but numbers now are higher because losses are lower due to more constrained operation- no French coast sub pens since the RN blew the construction sites up, so U Boats have to come from Germany.

How well Dönitz will be able to sell it is a strong factor. The U Boat, TTL, is an incredible defensive tool, keeping the Baltic a Pact of Steel lake for now.
 

Yatta

Donor
I think that even if there are more subs, they would have to be split, because the UK has 2 routes from NA, NA East Coast to UK and NA West to Japan through the Suez and around the Iberian Peninsula.
 
I think that even if there are more subs, they would have to be split, because the UK has 2 routes from NA, NA East Coast to UK and NA West to Japan through the Suez and around the Iberian Peninsula.
I'm not sure that much shipping iOTL would have gone US/Canada West Coast around the long way. Much cheaper and still just as safe to use the Panama Canal and then go due east to the Coast of Africa and North. Same level of UBoats (more or less) and much less fuel. Now shipping from North America to Australia and India are probably on the Prewar routes.

That's the thing about TTL, the balance of Naval Forces is *silly* toward the Allies.
 
TTL, a big bottleneck that is coming up fast for the RN, even though it was larger than OTL during the interwar years, is going to be manpower.

As all those new destroyers and light cruisers are launched, not to mention the eight new carriers in various stages of readiness, it is very likely that the old, tired Revenge class battleships will have to be put in reserve- not that there's a lot for them to do anyway. Could sailors from the Dominions crew them? Possibly, but their presence would be more valuable on modern ships.
 
Well they should still have a good number of Revenge-class ships that could be sent in that way.

While they could, it's a real question as to whether the Brazilians would even want one. Are they better than Minas Geraes? Definitely, but they're also not that much newer, and also in a bad state.

They're the least well maintained of any of the RN's ships, and despite relatively light use (three were the RN's training ships until 1939), and need a lot of work. Their boilers and condensers need replacing and turbines need an overhaul at the bare minimum. Their directors are obsolete and the 15" mounts are still WWI era, so they did not receive the higher maximum angles and can't use supercharges.

Plus, Brazil's supply chain is more closely integrated with the American one by now, so spares would be a headache.
 
++Snip++
it is very likely that the old, tired Revenge class battleships will have to be put in reserve- not that there's a lot for them to do anyway. Could sailors from the Dominions crew them? Possibly, but their presence would be more valuable on modern ships.
While I agree with this,

I've heard the Brazilians are looking for a new battleship.
Well they should still have a good number of Revenge-class ships that could be sent in that way.
Would you really want a worn out ship which will require a huge sum of money to
a) Fix and make fully sea-worthy again
and
b) Will take ages to repair (RN Priorities)
and
c) Will in essence be powerful and short-ranged. Ok, nice ships Brazil, but its a range thing. She has a massive coastline and needs massive cruising range ships. OTL R's had a range of 7,000nm. The Brazil ships OTL had a range of 10,000nm. Would they accept a 30% reduction here?

I'm sure there was something else too, but can't remember what it was!
 
I suppose that's fair...

...pretty sure that something else is, "does anybody really want to give Brazil another Battleship anyway?"

Also in that case, might be better off to send the Revenge-classes to the breakers.
 
Britain's shipbuilding industry experiences different challenges TTL as well.

For starters, there are fewer merchant ship losses TTL, so less need to be replaced. A more cooperative USN, plus the purchase of old Japanese destroyers, and more Imperial built and/or operated destroyers and sloops and a larger pre-war RN all help too. The intact Marine Nationale also helps to alleviate pressure in the Mediterranean and Bay of Biscay.

As for what does get built, there are +6 Crown Colony class cruisers in addition to the carriers and battleships. Corvettes, far fewer than OTL are built as well, but spread out further, some even operated by the Indian Navy. With no need for all the War Emergency Programme vessels, destroyers are of the Tribal and TTL Battle and Weapon classes. The Battles in particular, with their high speeds, formidable armament of 6x 4.5" DP guns in 2 turrets fore and one aft on their 400' hulls are some of the finest destroyers of the war, and prestige commands for the destroyerman fortunate enough to receive one. The smaller Weapons are capable of much of what their larger cousins are, although they remain somewhat in the shadow of the "Big Boats".

On top of this, the RN has kept up its excellent training programmes for night fighting and combat in heavy weather.

This is a Fleet that is more capable and flexible on the whole, and able both to overmatch the Kriegsmarine (before destroying it) and keep the Regia Marina at the wall. There are a few knock-on effects. The first, although there are some savings from what isn't built, more has been spent and over a longer period, but even the Exchequer can see just how well this investment has paid off. Thus far, Britannia's rule of the waves hasn't yet been seriously challenged. Secondly, when combined with their close allies in the MN and IJN, the result is a huge naval presence worldwide, with far more fast battleships than the USN has in service, and far more operational experience. These combined forces, with their widespread basing, have shown that off Murmansk, Hong Kong and in the North Sea, they are more than capable of taking on challengers from raiders to battleships in all conditions.

This gives the USN some pause- they don't want to be playing catch-up, even with more resources and industrial capacity than the member nations of the Imperial Bloc/ Entente 2me. With the Soviets thus far a naval non-factor as far as the USN is concerned, attention turns to matching the Entente nations; a sort of naval proto Cold War, yet one that keeps close, if not exactly ton-for-ton parity. Essentially, the USN seeks to keep pace with the RN, MN and IJN in combination, much like how it retained 5:5 parity with the RN under the WNT which was effectively dissolved on September 3rd, 1939.
 
Granted, there's still some life left in them, not to mention those excellent 15" guns. They can soldier on as training ships or be transferred to an ally that has a lot of manpower but doesn't require long ranged fast ships...

Thing is, it might be better to keep some on hand, especially if Hood or Repair and Refit are going to be in service for much longer. Even an additional ten years or so might mean they might need a gun swapped out.

The turrets being taken and used for shore batteries could happen as well, but this late in the game, I don't imagine it'd be feasible (there's no imminent threat from the sea). Best to keep in mothballs with, perhaps, one ship for training (see the USS Mississippi of OTL for what that could look like in the post war era.)

attention turns to matching the Entente nations; a sort of naval proto Cold War,

I'm not sure it's completely that at the moment, though. The Germans seem poised upon victory in Moscow, if I remember correctly. Either way, the USSR is at risk of falling, which would leave Germany astride the continent. There must be apprehension as, while France is not necessarily solidly in German control, the fall of the USSR would also mean the return of veteran German forces from Russia, in effect cutting off any rebellion at hand.

If victory can't be brought onto the continent, there would certainly be worries of a renewed German naval threat. In worst case scenarios (perhaps unrealistic to us up time but not necessarily to downtime), Germany could renew the London Blitz and be content to build up its forces. And if Germany manages to force a peace, they'd be allowed to rebuild their own navy and be a threat once again - perhaps a more experienced one, with the lessons of the war incorporated.

So in that sense, the US can't afford to let the UK fall and must continue to build up.

There's certainly the proto cold war aspect, especially with maintaining equivalence to the UK, with whom both Japan and France have become tighter and tighter at the hip (sharing technologies), etc. Plus, I imagine that we've had aspects behind the scenes which have also lead the UK to be more assured of its position, with Imperial policies not being as swayed by the US's influence as per OTL. That's just conjecture, though.
 
Thing is, it might be better to keep some on hand, especially if Hood or Repair and Refit are going to be in service for much longer. Even an additional ten years or so might mean they might need a gun swapped out.

The turrets being taken and used for shore batteries could happen as well, but this late in the game, I don't imagine it'd be feasible (there's no imminent threat from the sea). Best to keep in mothballs with, perhaps, one ship for training (see the USS Mississippi of OTL for what that could look like in the post war era.)

Granted, the remaining Revenge class ships have their lease on life as fully commissioned British battleships extended for as long as it takes to complete refits on Renown and Repulse. They're fit enough to perform escort and bombardment duties, which is enough.



I'm not sure it's completely that at the moment, though. The Germans seem poised upon victory in Moscow, if I remember correctly. Either way, the USSR is at risk of falling, which would leave Germany astride the continent. There must be apprehension as, while France is not necessarily solidly in German control, the fall of the USSR would also mean the return of veteran German forces from Russia, in effect cutting off any rebellion at hand.

If victory can't be brought onto the continent, there would certainly be worries of a renewed German naval threat. In worst case scenarios (perhaps unrealistic to us up time but not necessarily to downtime), Germany could renew the London Blitz and be content to build up its forces. And if Germany manages to force a peace, they'd be allowed to rebuild their own navy and be a threat once again - perhaps a more experienced one, with the lessons of the war incorporated.

So in that sense, the US can't afford to let the UK fall and must continue to build up.

There's certainly the proto cold war aspect, especially with maintaining equivalence to the UK, with whom both Japan and France have become tighter and tighter at the hip (sharing technologies), etc. Plus, I imagine that we've had aspects behind the scenes which have also lead the UK to be more assured of its position, with Imperial policies not being as swayed by the US's influence as per OTL. That's just conjecture, though.

You raise a good point with the problems the USSR is facing as well. The Germans are deep into the country, and an offensive that penetrated so far will take that much longer to push back- and the problems are compounded by the fact that Lend-Lease supplies can only trickle through Arkhangelsk by sea, or the Trans-Siberian route, entering the USSR either by Vladivostok or Khabarovsk.

While the Allies might not be overly upset by a weaker USSR, your post demonstrates how disastrous its fall would be. Nor only that, it would allow Germany and the Republic of China to connect overland.

That is all without considering Generalplan Ost. The Allies, as much as they might not like it, will have to help the USSR in the form of materiel and other support.

There have been numerous small butterflies regarding Imperial policies. For instance, Canadian troops were sent to China TTL whereas OTL, the Canadian government would have refused that request. TTL, the Imperial Defence Grants which helped Canada's fledgling shipbuilding industry and offset some startup costs, also put London in a better position to ask favours in return from Ottawa. Said postings are strictly limited to volunteers as well. Australia has seen its own rounds of shipbuilding grants, although there has been less urgency with an increasingly friendly and then outright Allied Japan. Malaya, however, has little more in the way of defences, but the larger Royal Navy and absence of seaborne threats mean that whatever attackers come by land will have to come down the narrow Kra Isthmus- which is much more easily defended.
 
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News of the Week
AN: Since a lot of TTL situations are escalating at similar times, I thought I'd try a sort of more than flash but less than full update on each of these. Let me know if it works!

---

During one week in February, 1942...

Guangzhou, Republic of China

WANG Jingwei had seen the writing on the wall. The situation was bad and getting worse. The opposing Allied forces drew nearer to Nanking, concentrating their forces, and squeezing the salient formed around the city itself closer and closer. It even became difficult to ascertain just what forces the Allies were massing because of how adept they had become at shooting down reconnaissance aircraft. It was all but inevitable that the city would fall; a question of if rather than when, and the when seemed to draw ever closer.

It seemed like everybody except Chiang finally understood what a fool's errand this war was, and how the Germans had taken him for a fool, all while massaging his huge ego. This could only lead in one direction.

At last, Wang agreed to meet with Soong Chingling and Li Jishen to hear what alternatives they were proposing. Revolutionary stalwarts that they were, perhaps they could get Chiang to understand...

---

Eastern Burma

GENERAL Li Zhongren read by the light of a flickering gas light, a (poorly) translated paperback copy of Heinz Guderian's book Achtung - Panzer! in a bid to learn as much of the art of armoured warfare as he could, in the absence of competent German advisors.

The ones they sent were useless political appointees, more interested in rooting out what few Jews there were in southern China and introducing bizarre racial theories and symbolism. Chiang (and some say at Madame Chiang's urging) developed no small amount of disdain for these "advisors" and ordered most of them to return to Germany, with little regard for their safety.

This, however, left a vacuum- someone had to figure out how to fight this war. In absence of a better solution, the question arose: How would Guderian assault Rangoon?


Shanghai, Union of China (de facto)

American HQ

THE old Manila Gang had seen some additions in the previous months, although they would do little to fundamentally alter the character of MacArthur's "court". The most notable among these was Colonel Bonner Fellers, who had been given a portfolio which included both signals and intelligence, which aggravated Willoughby to no small degree.

Today's briefing, however, was a joint session with Auchinleck and the Japanese generals Terauchi and Hata. Hata wasted no time in reinforcing territory endangered by Tojo's disastrous attack on Huchow. An armoured train and two railway guns were brought up to defend the railway line linking Tsingtao to the north, and troops from Japan and Manchukuo were concentrated as well. The push on Nanking, due to these commitments, will be a largely Anglo-American effort, albeit with a Japanese presence.

Perhaps remarkably, the highly diverse Allied forces managed to operate cohesively. Auchinleck's task was made much easier by Symonds' and Morsheads's abilities to motivate their troops through inspiration and a combination of inspiration and terror respectively. Terauchi and Hata, having worked together so long, operate almost as if two parts of a highly effective whole, a trait that has not gone unnoticed by MacArthur and Fellers.

That MacArthur's court manages to not alienate all of its allies rests largely on the strength of Dugout Doug's personality. He's the only one with an ego and stubbornness to outmatch Patton's and manages to stay a step ahead of Stilwell and channel his abilities effectively.

---

Singapore

ARTHUR Percival, at long last, had a chance to be alone with his thoughts. The last two weeks had been a whirlwind of activity, requiring all of his skills in the military, diplomatic and political aspects of generalship. Singapore must not be allowed to fall, nor the Straits of Malacca be allowed to fall within the reach of Chinese bombers.

Among these many tasks were visits to the Thai-Malayan border, and the troops defending Singapore's water works. Attempting to absorb Leigh-Mallory's innovative theories on air power, and Mountbatten's naval strategies and integrating them with his own troop's operations required that no detail be overlooked, which was no easy task. He had met with General Yamashita several times as well, and perhaps some of Yamashita's audacity rubbed off on him when he told notorious defeatist Major General Bennett to shut up in an uncharacteristic outburst.

In spite of all of this, all Percival could do now was wait. The Chinese were coming- and only Monty could slow them down now.

---

Western Soviet Union

OBERLEUTNANT Axel Freiherr von dem Bussche couldn't bear to look, but couldn't turn away either. His conscience begged him to join them, but his legs wouldn't move. Some of the men in his platoon looked equally disgusted, and one young private tried to mask tears.

It was obvious what was going on- the SS marching lines of half-naked women and children towards a line of pits that forced labourers had dug. He turned away. The young private gritted his teeth and muttered "I am no longer German"

The sound behind him, although hundreds of metres away, would haunt him for the rest of his life. Desertion would mean certain torture and death for no consequence, so he hoped the next battle would take his life. But even that wouldn't be enough.

Someone had to stand up against this criminality- but just how would he do it, and who would listen?
 
Montgomery is a nut, but if you need someone to hold the line...

In hindsight, I shouldn't be surprised that MacArthur is able to 'manage' Patton. He 'managed' Halsey IOTL, so he should be able to deal with Patton as well.
 
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