The Sun, The Stars and The Sickle: Alt-WWII and a Tripolar Postwar World

What would you like to see next


  • Total voters
    41
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
And because I have no ability to restrain myself when it comes to boats, here is the story of the TTL Yamatos. Part of it is taken from my previous TL, so some may look familiar.

The TTL Yamato class draws heavily on naval designer Yuzuru Hiraga's design for "Ship No. 13", which was to be a class of four built after the Kii class battleships were built. They would have had a top speed of 30kn, a displacement of 47 500 t standard, and measured 900' x 101' x 29.2'. Armament was to be 4 x 2 18"/L50 guns.

Like many of Hiraga's designs, they feature powerful armament, armour that is very strong over a short citadel with long unarmoured ends, and high speeds. The one drawback to many of Hiraga's designs was the continued use of casemated rather than turreted secondaries.

Here are the OTL designs:

No. 13 Class Battleship
1920px-IJN_battleship_design_of_Project-13_class.jpg

(credit to Wiki user "kallgan")

Hiraga's 1929 battleship design:

capture-1a.jpg


TTL, the IJN wanted these ships to counter the impressive new construction from the United States and Britain. The original (TTL) plan was to skip over the Kii class and build these ships. The WNT, which required that guns be limited to 16" rather than 18" led to a revision; the ships were to have twelve 16" guns instead of eight 18" guns, using the new 16"/L50 and installed in turrets of a new design.

Due to the tonnage restrictions and massive costs, a four-ship class was out of the question, but two were authorized, and were even assigned the names Izumi and Sagami.

However, the IJN of the time lacked a three-gun turret, and the need to lay down the ships and have them complete by the end of 1927 meant that running out of time was a real risk. With the 18"s reduced to 16", the need for an entirely new ship was lessened, and in the end, it was decided to modify the Amagi design with many of the features that would have gone into the Izumi class. The Great Kanto Earthquake sealed the fate of any further new ships being laid down.


In the mid-late 1930s, with the 1927-1937 Battleship Holiday coming to an end, several designs were tendered. The IJN's new battle plans, abandoning the idea of a decisive battle, required a departure from a slow but incredibly heavily armoured battleship with mixed turbine and diesel propulsion, to an extremely fast but heavily armed ship, with a short armoured citadel, and all turbine propulsion, using high-pressure boilers and impulse turbines. A forward bulbous bow also contributed to efficient high-speed cruising. The Yamatos also utilized a sharply pointed cruiser stern, unlike their American and British contemporaries.

The IJN's strategy, in the rapprochement era, shifted to the use of highly tactically mobile carrier task forces that would be able to fight in any conditions, day or night, and use high speed to escape a stronger opponent (namely the USN), and regroup for repeated attacks outside enemy range. Nearly all of the 1930s designs were shaped by this requirement: The carriers were built to be fast. The Agano class light cruisers were configured to serve as flotilla leaders for the screening destroyers, while the Tone class heavy cruisers were configured to carry numerous seaplanes for fleet scouting, the carriers' capacity devoted entirely to fighters and strike aircraft. The updated Kongo and then-proposed Ashitaka class battlecruisers would either lead detached elements or stay with the core fleet to add to the weight of fire.

The Yamatos' task would be to keep up with the carriers and lay down a thick AA screen (compared to an American battleship, they carried slightly more 40mm weapons but considerably fewer 20mm ones), and fight off any battleships or cruisers that came near the combined fleet. Their guns are optimized for long-range plunging fire, in order to keep challengers well away.

The Yamatos are based on the Izumi class, but with ten years of improvements. Secondaries are no longer casemated, and there are no torpedo tubes. The hull form has a cruiser-like block coefficient with lots of sheer and flare on the long bows to keep the ships dry. The tower-pagoda mast installation and raked funnel (not as raked as the second picture, more like OTL Yamatos) complete the quintessentially Japanese appearance.

Japan's other great naval designer, Kikuo Fujimoto's work was also incorporated into the final design. For further weight savings and a sleek hull form, the Yamatos were welded rather than riveted. Finalized dimensions are 1021' x 115' x 35.5' and 57 000 t light, 63 000 t standard. Main armanent is 12x 16"/L53 Type 0 41cm Naval Guns in four three-gun turrets, secondaries are 6x 155mm low-angle guns on the centreline double superfiring main armament, and 20x 100mm DP guns in five twin turrets per side. Light AA consists of up to 112 Type 1 Bofors guns in twin and sextuple mounts, and 20-30 20mm Oerlikon MG-FFS cannon in twin and single mounts.
 
Last edited:
Any chance Pu Yi will fully abdicate his throne as his brother seems to be filling the role of Emperor better? Or at least improve his conduct as a result of his self imposed internal exile?

There's a very good chance that might happen. As it stands, Puyi has been in Macau for about a year now, but nobody is really hoping that he'll make a miraculous "recovery".
 
You know, lurking this TL and all, I'm starting to wonder...

...with Japan and the U.S. on the same side, do we end up in a postwar world where nobody knows how badly outdated the big gun battleships are?
 
You know, lurking this TL and all, I'm starting to wonder...

...with Japan and the U.S. on the same side, do we end up in a postwar world where nobody knows how badly outdated the big gun battleships are?


Eh.

I think that the sinking of the Bismarck in Operation Tiger has proven how battleships without air cover are weak to aircraft carriers...

That would be an excellent example of how big gun battleships are outdated, but the Gun Club will argue that the year prior, Courageous had trouble launching and recovering her Swordfish in bad weather, while Warburton-Lee in Rodney pursued and sank Gneisenau* in weather that was little better, after an all-night chase. As it stands now, the conclusion is that you need both.

*Alright, fine. I sank her first because her name is harder to spell.
 
Last edited:
And to think we already broke up Agincourt, the Gin Palace herself! :cryingface:

I'll have to do something really nice for Brazil to compensate!

This is starting to have the flavor of the Pepsi Navy threads that crop up.

I'm sure that would gin up a controversy. Probably a lot of wining by competitors who can hardly beer what is going on.
 
Has Finland cut off Leningrad, has Brazil entered the war and Portugal could be an possibility seeing as how well the allies are doing currently doing.
 
Has Finland cut off Leningrad, has Brazil entered the war and Portugal could be an possibility seeing as how well the allies are doing currently doing.

1. The Finns have not made an incursion into Soviet territory, but are positioned to prevent a Soviet escape into Finland.

2. Brazil is preparing an expeditionary division after talks between Vargas and FDR. Ten WWI era "tin-stacker" destroyers have also been transfered from the USN to the Marinha do Brasil.

3. Portugal is part of the Mediterranean Accord, and as such, maintains strict neutrality.
 
That would be an excellent example of how big gun battleships are outdated, but the Gun Club will argue that the year prior, Courageous had trouble launching and recovering her Swordfish in bad weather, while Warburton-Lee in Rodney pursued Gneisenau in weather that was little better, after an all-night chase. As it stands now, the conclusion is that you need both.

I also can see battleships being the chief first adopters of antiship missiles, eventually going whole hog into missile dreadnaughts with everything from tomahawk types to sea-skimming carrier killers.
 
I can think of one person who is betting that Pu Yi will take an active role soon. Chiang

With Beijing, the location of the Dragon Throne and the Qing seat of power now occupied by the Union of China, inviting him back wouldn't be workable, but Chiang would love to be able to undermine Pujie and the regime in Manchukuo.

What did you have in mind?

Ah yes of course

No worries! When you're writing a world-spanning TL, sometimes you have to look back and remember "now, where did I put X and what is Y doing now?"
 
With Beijing, the location of the Dragon Throne and the Qing seat of power now occupied by the Union of China, inviting him back wouldn't be workable, but Chiang would love to be able to undermine Pujie and the regime in Manchukuo.

What did you have in mind?

Puyi trying to meddle with the daily business in Manchukuo. Probably failing, but at this point, I think Chiang is getting very desparate
 
Not too sure, that will work. I'm sure the Allies can find a way to keep Pu-Yi from returning to Manchukuo so long as the war is on, and given the past update's mention of how Manchukuo is beginning to provide the Allies with increasing amounts of food, the Allies won't want to rock the boat and risk losing the rallying figure of Prince Pujie in the process.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top