The Sun, The Stars and The Sickle: Alt-WWII and a Tripolar Postwar World
- Thread starter WaterproofPotatoes
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Do you have any images of these? I have not heard of the designs before.
Sorry I just realised I posted to the wrong alt hist I am currently following yours and another one whoops
No worries! Hope you're enjoying both!
There is a post on Page 3 which has a line drawing of the Syren class.
I'll update with some more narrative type posts soon!
Here is the Syren, effectively, as built
Note that there are two very pointless guns on the aft (the 5"/51 might have been good there, but the 5"/25 wasn't quite effective). Note that with increased aircraft weight and takeoff speed, the deck run was too short - to preserve aircraft functionality, a catapult would have to be installed. A quick example I did of this (using a Shipbucket vessel as the base; I didn't draw the ship itself) would look something like this:
Where care was taken to maintain the field of fire of the 5"/25 guns while also providing a single catapult. The refit that would later give the vessel the DP guns would also allow the removal of those 5"/25, and the addition of a second catapult and a larger foredeck.
The Teaser class is similar, but maintaining 2x2 5"/38 guns fore and aft of the island, reminiscent of this OTL design.
But, instead of 1x3 8"/55 and 1x2 5"/38 fore of the deck, it would retain 3x3 6"/47 along with the other elements noted in the Syren class.
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The Cruiser Destroyer is a little harder to find. It's mentioned in Friedman's book on US Cruisers on page 249. This is the best I can get for you. Note that it has no secondary guns (unlike the 6 5"/38 on the above design) and fewer torpedoes - as the 8" variant had to have 5" guns for self defense, the size ballooned necessarily, and the 6" variant would have included 5" guns regardless of being DP or not.
Much of the development has its roots in the turbulent 1930s- when a war between the United States and Japan seemed all but inevitable. Nobody really expected Japan to sign the TTL 1935 (London II) and 1937 (Paris) Naval Treaties either- more than one US cruiser design was influenced by the existence of the formidable Mogami class cruisers. While extremely capable vessels, the Mogami class, TTL, is a class of two, but it showed just what Japan was capable of.
Similarly, the Alaska class small battleships are as much, if not more, built with the TTL reconstructed Kongo class battlecruisers (30 000 tons, 31.5kn, 8 x 14" but only 8" armour) than the Scharnhorst class small battleships in mind.
The USN is also in a privileged position- it has the industrial strength behind it to go full overkill.
There's also another point to be made - all vessels prior to Atlanta, they are the result of the expanded treaty limiting cruiser tonnages to a higher limit (and higher numbers) than OTL - 21 Heavy Cruisers vs the 18 in OTL for the US, for example. The biggest expansion is 16 lights vs the 9 of OTL, but it was a result of the compromise decided in the previous thread (long, long discussions therein) so that the US could get their cruisers. Overall, the number of Treaty cruisers of the Americans is about 100k higher than OTL, but so are the caps for the other nations. The Japanese have 14 heavies vs the 12 of OTL, meaning they possess the same ratio, and many of those are the newer Tone. And, just as OTL, the Mogami scared much of the US Navy, as these were ships with the (original) suspected 15 gun armament being unmatched in the world.
The Fall of France, one of the major powers, and the German Hegemony over much of Europe still exists TTL- though it was far bloodier,and the Anglo-French are in a strong position, Germany possesses the mainland and has at its back a favorable relationship with the USSR, making the only potential (at this point in time) ally being Italy, which will, of course, not partake in the war in which it'd fair so poorly. The threat of German raiders are still strong. Combine that with worse relationships with Britain than OTL (not quite as close, certainly) and Japan's ongoing war in China, and there are many enemies who are mobilized and could take advantage of American negligence.
Regardless if Japan seems saner now, that means they're only the #2 geopolitical rival expanding their power in the Orient at the expense of a state the US desired to maintain open trade for and which many citizens feel some sympathy towards.
Combine that altogether, and the US has ordered 18 Light Cruisers, 8 Hybrids, and 10 Heavies a few months ahead of schedule (only one of those ships has been launched, much less commissioned) compared to OTL, where the US eventually completed 27 Light Cruisers, 9 Light Carriers, and 14 Heavies of the Cleveland, Independence,and Baltimore classes. There is less rush... compared to OTL, as vs throwing down another run of 9 Vincennes or so, they are moving ahead with a successor design as mentioned, and there likely won't be a Navy Composition bill of 1941 (Dec 23) or a Naval Expansion bill in 1942 to bolster numbers with repeat runs.
The gameplan for the US is expansion yet maintenance of the fleet - the next wave of vessels would be expected to supplement and replace outdated units in the fleet in frontline duties (though, thinking this over did help a bit - the CL-109 would be the replacement for the Omaha, not the much newer light cruisers). I'm going to make a few edits to make things a little bit clearer as well.
The initial order itself is larger, but all of the projected growth put down is almost 72% of OTL projected projects, excluding the Des Moines and Worcester from the calculation. Including them, it drops to below 58%. In OTL, 61 War Project cruisers were completed at some point in time (a few years down the road), so if every single current projected is completed, then and only then will they outnumber OTL (including the proposed designs).
Though, I did alter the list to denote whether a ship is laid down or just scheduled; I have the dates for laying down by year, so it's an estimate. By that, only 15 ships have a keel laid down, and only one ship is launched; that should match better.
Anything I say is, of course, contingent on @WaterproofPotatoes of course.
Nice, I always liked the idea of smaller cruiser sized carriers for smaller fleets it makes a lot of naval sense.
Yes, a tad expensive. For an additional one percent of budget, Habakkuk will be improved with a full scale replica of Buckingham Palace and Versailles so that it can go to war with style at a very small cost increase, so expensive it would be to build. Habakkuk II will save money on the Buckingham part by simply adding turbines and propellers to the British Isles themselves.
TTL, Habakkuk will not be necessary.
First off, the U-Boat menace isn't as severe as OTL. Britain has more destroyers and sloops, as does Canada, which even built a small class of indigenous sloops optimized for cold-weather service, with enclosed bridges and hulls reinforced against ice.
Japan also sold Britain a number of old destroyers and light cruisers, which helped make up the deficit. Convoys have additional protection against raiders, with Britain's WWI-era battleships and battlecruisers providing additional cover. The old carriers Eagle, Argus and Hermes are usually assigned to convoy protection duties.
The Americans have been no slouches either. Unlike Admiral King OTL, Admirals Nimitz and Halsey are very willing to work with the Royal Navy in patrolling the North Atlantic, and the hybrid cruisers especially have acquitted themselves fantastically. Convoys, almost without exception, have a capable escort.
The U-Boats are also more constrained than in OTL. There are no sub pens on the French Coast- the Revenge and Queen Elizabeth class battleships shelled them to dust while they were under construction. Submarines either have to depart from the Dutch coast or Germany itself through the Skagerrak- which isn't helped by the fact that Norway is a full-fledged Allied nation, after Britain assisted in repulsing the German invasion, and is constantly on the lookout for German subs and raiders trying to slip out.
On the smaller end of things, even the escort carrier hasn't made an appearance yet- what would be called an escort carrier OTL is still considered an auxiliary aircraft carrier, and in the USN, bears the hull code of a dry cargo transport (T-ACV) rather than a fighting ship (CVE).
Instead, the Light Carrier makes its appearance earlier in the case of Britain, and in less of a hurry in the case of the USN. Fleet carriers, growing in size and capability quite rapidly, are simply too large for ASW patrols. In contrast, the Light Carrier is built to warship standards (unlike escort carriers which were built to merchant standards), with just enough size and capability optimized for ASW and patrol missions, not attached to a fast carrier fleet. The USN's TTL Independence class carriers (I did some shameless retconning), have a purpose-built hull based on the Vincennes class light cruisers; along the lines of a through-deck Iris class hybrid. The Royal Navy introduces the Colossus class light carrier earlier than OTL, in 1940. The improved Majestic class, with an angled deck as opposed to the straight deck on the class prior, is laid down next year. A much-improved and larger light carrier, the Centaur class, is due to be laid down in 1943; this class will exceed the capabilities and size of the Illustrious class fleet carrier in nearly every metric.
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@Luminous , everything looks good so far! In fact, going back, I realize I forgot some cruisers for Japan- the Sendai class of 1922; the last of the four-stacker light cruisers.
TTL, the plan for 8 was cut down to 4, as per OTL. Sendai and Jintsuu were completed; Kako scrapped on the ways while largely incomplete to meet Washington and budgetary commitments in 1922, and Naka, as in OTL, was badly damaged by the Great Kanto Earthquake while on the ways, and her remains scrapped. Unlike OTL, she was not laid down again. The remaining pair served alongside Yubari and the Chitose class, until the first flight of Agano class light cruisers allowed them to be relegated to secondary duties, and the second flight allowed them to be reduced to training ships, since the Fusos could no longer serve in that role.
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Echem. The Jintsou is actually spelled Jintsuu.
(Who knew being a grammar nazi could be fun?)
(Who knew being a grammar nazi could be fun?)
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Fixed, thanks for catching that!
I have a few things in mind for the next narrative update- is there anything everybody would like to see next? Naval technology was the last popular request and it turned out beautifully!
Yes, Japanese weapons, most of it is so ridiculous and I don’t know how the IJA used it in war. Just look at type 11 light machine gun, if the whole wiki is true then it’s a quite troublesome weapon the Japanese have, but the reloading is so funny. I don’t know it the most genius idea or the dumbest.
Japanese LMGs also came equipped with bayonets:
This is the Type 99, which is similar to the Bren gun and chambered in 7.7x57mm Arisaka.
This is the Type 99, which is similar to the Bren gun and chambered in 7.7x57mm Arisaka.
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