The Sun, The Stars and The Sickle: Alt-WWII and a Tripolar Postwar World

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by WaterproofPotatoes, Sep 15, 2018.

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What would you like to see next

Poll closed Sep 27, 2018.
  1. Prewar Departures

    7.3%
  2. Technology: Ships, planes, etc

    7.3%
  3. Japan, China & Philippines 1939-1940

    31.7%
  4. Italy 1939-1940

    17.1%
  5. Nazi Germany: Norway Fallout

    34.1%
  6. Other (please describe in reply)

    2.4%
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  1. Anhtuan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2018
    Yep, Chang’s doing it, he let his idiotic control him. Feel like the Chinese army will run through Indochina and Burma soon enough, the mystery is how they poke the eagle. I’m so curious.

    Does this Japan has any long range bomber because if they do I believe Jang smartest choice is to move the the capital somewhere else than Nanjing.
     
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  2. Knightmare Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2012
    Location:
    FL
    "And in other news, the China lobby are currently denying that they ever supported Chang, and in fact, now are 110% behind the Empire of Japan's peacekeeping operations."
     
  3. WaterproofPotatoes #TeamMahan

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    That will be revealed in updates to come, as well as the extent to which the Eagle pokes back.

    The best long-range bomber Japan has right now is the Navy Type 1- Mitsubishi G4M. Some four-engine heavies for the IJN and IJA are in the works, but it will be a while before they're ready

    There will be a definite push to separate China from Chiang, definitely metaphorically, and as we now know, possibly physically.
     
  4. Anhtuan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2018
    Well if everything continues like this China will have another civil war, and surrenders in near future.
     
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  5. free115 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Location:
    New Vancouver, Planet Reach
    Just what forces do the Americans have in play the Philippines at this point? They've had months to fortify the islands and have been reinforced. Chiang gotta be huffing coke if he think the Americans are gonna take any assault on their stuff laying down.
     
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  6. WaterproofPotatoes #TeamMahan

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    The Americans have considerable reinforcements in the Philippines, on the order of a field army's worth, in addition to 4 battleships (Montana, South Dakota and 2 Standards), plus the attendant cruisers and destroyers and non-inconsiderable air assets as well. Up until a short while ago, these assets were aimed at Japan.

    Chiang really screwed up with that bluff, but the National Army is big, and the best assets are held around Guangzhou, Shanghai and Nanking.
     
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  7. Anhtuan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2018
    I don’t think China can attack Philippines, they have no navy and their airforce is busy with the Japanese. I believe how stupid Chang in this timeline is he smart enough to not order millions of his man swim to Philippines.
     
  8. WaterproofPotatoes #TeamMahan

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    I wouldn't count Chiang out just yet either, he has a lot of assets and a lot of room to maneuver. It's a big mistake to recover from, but it's early yet.

    China has minimal naval assets (some corvettes, cutters and such) and an air force that's small relative to the size of the Army, so there's little China can do to directly threaten the Philippines.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
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  9. free115 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Location:
    New Vancouver, Planet Reach
    Did Mac manage to whip the Philippine army into shape in this TL? If the Americans are gonna wage a land war on mainland Asia, having another source of competent soldiers might be needed.
     
  10. WaterproofPotatoes #TeamMahan

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    They're in pretty decent shape, and aren't using improvised guns made out of scrap wood and pipes (M1903 Springfields are their service weapon), and reasonably well equipped with machine guns, mortars and light/pack howitzers, but they're short on heavy artillery and Filipino armour consists of a few light tanks and armoured cars.

    Mac, who advises President Quezon on their training and holds the rank of Field Marshal in the Philippine Army, however, regards them as competent and brave, so they're definitely valuable.
     
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  11. Kiwigun Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2015
    Say why the focus on the Philippines gang? Honesty its amusingly depressing how they act towards Japan.
     
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  12. WaterproofPotatoes #TeamMahan

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    For much of the 20th century, OTL and TTL, Japan has been the biggest geopolitical threat to the USA and her interests. The third largest navy in the world after the RN and USN, and interests in the Pacific put Japan into that category by default. That Japan narrowly averted a far-right coup and government-by-assasination certainly didn't help.

    The Manila Gang is responding, albeit in their own stubborn way, to what they see as a rising threat, and attempting to predict Japan's next move.

    Plus it's fun writing their dialogue!
     
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  13. Threadmarks: The Pride and Disgrace

    WaterproofPotatoes #TeamMahan

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    Shanghai, Republic of China

    July 17th, 1941

    7:19 PM


    THE last forty-eight hours almost seemed surreal. It would have sounded unlikely weeks ago, madness months ago, and speculative fiction as late as a couple years ago.

    The mostly Anglo-American Shanghai International Settlement, the French Concession, and "Japantown" in Hongkou were where foreign nationals in Shanghai lived, in an increasingly tense peace as the conflict between China and Japan escalated. The peace negotiations were at a breaking point, with Matsui's Japanese delegation threatening to walk out. Both sides entrenched their unreasonable positions further.

    Then, it happened. An incident of "police brutality" and "kidnapping" occurred in the International Settlement two days ago. The exact circumstances were unclear, but a suspected opium dealer with connections to Du Yuesheng alleged he was beaten by the police in the International Settlement, and detained without being charged. Police Commissioner Smyth and his deputy Watari hotly denied these allegations, but no Chinese official would take a Briton and a Japanese on their word against a Chinese citizen in these trying times.

    News reached Chiang through Du and this proved to be the last straw. British, French, American and Japanese nationals were to be expelled from Shanghai, their concession rights terminated immediately. The National Army was sent in to enforce this. On July 16th, at noon Shanghai time, foreign nationals were given twenty-four hours to prepare for evacuation.

    Predictably, chaos ensued. A mad scramble of ships assembled by Shanghai's piers, ready to evacuate Americans to the Philippines, Japanese to Taiwan, Britons to Hong Kong and French to Indochina.


    The evacuation ships were severely overloaded, as residents piled on them with whatever belongings they could carry, and many were in danger of sinking. Everything from small liners to trawlers joined in the effort, and warships waited, watching, in international waters.

    The situation worsened when Japanese railway troops and American Marines fired warning shots at looters pouring into the International Settlement and Japantown before the evacuation was complete. This led to firefights between Shanghai police and National Army soldiers on one side; the retreating Japanese, American, British and French police and soldiers on the others. The National Army also committed armoured cars to the "enforcement action" which led to widespread panic.

    Eventually, order broke down, and evacuees piled onto any ship they could. British, Japanese and American destroyers rushed to aid ships in danger of sinking, and the Chinese forces interpreted this as an act of aggression. Aircraft attempted to attack the warships, which lay down thick smokescreens to obscure their charges. American P-38 Lightnings from the Philippines and IJN Zeroes were scrambled to provide air cover for the evacuation, engaging with Stukas, I-16s and Bf-109s flown by the Chinese Air Force.

    Ships simply made for whatever port they could, and had stopped bothering to check the nationality of the evacuees, resulting in some diplomatically tense moments. Fortunately, cool heads prevailed when diplomats conceded that a rescue effort such as this was not tantamount to kidnapping, and that carefully separating evacuees by nationality and destination would have been utterly impossible.


    The effects were far-reaching. Chiang ordered Wu Peifu to send additional forces eastward, to brace for a new Japanese retaliatory offensive. Wu refused. Chiang dismissed Wu from command, and repeated his request to Sun Chuanfang. Sun too, refused. Chiang angrily dismissed him as well. The result was that Wu and Sun, and the armies they controlled, proclaimed themselves to be separate from the "power-mad" Chiang. They stopped flying the KMT Sun, and proclaimed themselves to be the "New Union of All China", under the five-pointed Beiyang Star. Wu's forces had a powerful new ally as well.

    At 6pm, July 16th, 1941, the United States of America declared war on Germany and the Republic of China, for "repeated and deliberate acts of aggression against American citizens, a reckless disregard for American lives, and propagating a regime of violence and tyranny". The expulsion of Americans from Shanghai, during which 37 American Marines and civilians were killed, was deemed to be the last straw. German influence on Chiang was blamed, and the United States agreed to back Wu in expelling Chiang and his German advisors from China. There was a big problem, however. Wu's forces were on the other side of China, with the National Army between them.

    This also had the effect of making the United States and Japan allies. Few would have expected that. A conference was hastily organized to help deal with the "China Situation". The Southern China Area Army was also mobilized from Japan, the first division being dispatched to aid in the defence of Hong Kong.

    MacArthur's contingency speech was broadcast.


    MacArthur promised to arrive.
     
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  14. Knightmare Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2012
    Location:
    FL
    Hoh boy. There's gonna be hell to pay on the West Coast, given how many Chinese-Americans are there.
     
  15. AkulaKursk Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2018
    I love it! Shame there isn't no Pearl Harbor to rally the boys around the flag
     
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  16. Snowstalker ...

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2009
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    What did the vote for war in Congress look like? I suspect it wasn't nearly as close to unanimity as the OTL declarations of war on Japan, Germany, and Italy.
     
  17. WaterproofPotatoes #TeamMahan

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    Fortunately for the Chinese-American community, it takes on more of a tone of "we have to liberate China and the money we make there from the Nazis and their allies there". Wu Peifu rather than Chiang will be getting his picture on the cover of Life Magazine and such.

    "The Sack of Shanghai" and the Saratoga Incident, especially so close together, are pretty powerfully motivating; the fear of what the Nazi Menace will do next even moreso.

    Much closer for sure. Enough to override a veto (not that Roosevelt would, anyway), but not unanimous either. I haven't broken down how every Representative would have voted, but I estimate support for a DoW in the 70% range.
     
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  18. Knightmare Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2012
    Location:
    FL
    Oh good. So less chance of some very unpleasant riots.
     
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  19. WaterproofPotatoes #TeamMahan

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    When in doubt, blame the Nazis! You have the benefit of being right most of the time if you do, anyway.

    Having Wu (who kept a portrait of George Washington in his office OTL) as your ready-made Chinese Freedom Fighter (TM) helps too!
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
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  20. Rufus Shinra Statistical unlikeliness

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Location:
    Paris
    More like co-belligerents. [/nitpick]
     
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