Interesting, I didn't know. Do you have any connection to this? Was it in the same vein as Paris' relationship with the bishoprics of Trier and Mainz?
Actually, it's more that the Prince-Bishop of Liège was Bavarian, all of them until the Revolutionary wars. And that Bavaria became the principal and most trusted French ally in the HRE during Louis XIV reign (abd again until the Revolution).

Hence why Liège was used to attack the Dutch during the Franco-Dutch war.
 
I'm glad you like it!
I hope that the footnotes in my chapters allow you to distinguish between what comes from fiction and what is historically true.
Do you think my chapters are too long? I'm quite surprised because I find them too short. I'll think about that.
Yes, they are very helpful !
I guess it's because I read on this forum only on my phone, so there's a lot of scrolling.
I pointed out the chapter which included the battle of Rocroi, the further developments, and right after was the peace conference. I would have seen them in separate chapters, but it's not bothering, just a nitpick.
Anyway it's just my opinion. ;)
 
Yes, they are very helpful !
I guess it's because I read on this forum only on my phone, so there's a lot of scrolling.
I pointed out the chapter which included the battle of Rocroi, the further developments, and right after was the peace conference. I would have seen them in separate chapters, but it's not bothering, just a nitpick.
Anyway it's just my opinion. ;)
Currently my longest chapter is Part II of the Twenty-five Years' War in number of words. I couldn't see myself cutting even more and playing more parts to that big chunk. Otherwise I am holding back for a next time to perhaps separate the peace conference from the war itself.
I think that some of the chapters to come will be lighter too.
Do you have any ideas for future events? I really like to hear from my readers.
 
Currently my longest chapter is Part II of the Twenty-five Years' War in number of words. I couldn't see myself cutting even more and playing more parts to that big chunk. Otherwise I am holding back for a next time to perhaps separate the peace conference from the war itself.
I think that some of the chapters to come will be lighter too.
Do you have any ideas for future events? I really like to hear from my readers.
Well, now you are facing a BIG problem: LXIII is dead (unless you changed that), LXIV is a child, the government is weak and Conde is even more glorious than in OTL. Unless you are going to change his character completely, this means that he is even more ambitious and arrogant than in OTL while possessing the same level of the political skills (aka, zero).... Turenne may come even more handy than in OTL. 🤪

Seriously, none of the problems which France was facing in OTL disappeared with acquisition of Belgium unless this acquisition is being used to strengthen the “government” (or rather Anne’s regency) and somewhat reduce the taxes thus decreasing the political pressure.But the “princes” are still unhappy with what was left to them by Richelieu and Conde is still one of them. Of course, if the rest of his character is the same, he still does not give a damn about well-being of his own troops and can end up as a general without an army (as in OTL). And in your TL, besides having Turenne (after he gets fed up with Conde) as an asset, there is one more big asset just across the border: his soldiers may be settling down but would they mind making an extra buck?

Or would you have Mazarin being able to handle things peacefully?
 
I think that ,from very beginning, the op has implied that Condé is a very different person (mostly more loyal).

It was clearly implied that he is a much better strategist than in OTL. Term "loyal" within a framework of a contemporary France is a grey area. Loyal to whom? AFAIK, neither Parliamentary Fronde nor Fronde of the Princes were against Louis XIV. They were against the "bad government" in general and against Mazarin specifically. Nobody swore loyalty to Mazarin so this notion is neither here nor there. Gaston of Orleans, Conde, Conti, Bouillon (which meant, for a while, Turenne out of the family solidarity), Gondi, Beaufort and, not to be forgotten, Madame de Longueville and Madame de Chevreuse, wanted to be a part (preferably an important one) of a government, or to get back the territory lost during the reign of Louis XIII, or to be influence behind the scenes and in all cases to get some extra bonus (cash, administration of a province, cardinal's hat, military command, etc.). Some of them, like the Duke de Beaufort or Grand Mademoiselle, probably even did not have a clear idea what exactly they want besides a general wish of being involved in something. Their motivations are exactly the same as in OTL and the same goes for their resources including possession of the fortresses, their own troops and ability to raise dependent nobility to their cause.

Then, not to be confused with the modern times, calling for a foreign help was not considered a treason (especially if you won). Tradition was there since at least the Wars of Religion. In this TL the Spanish and Austrian military involvement is excluded but Lorraine still may be a factor: small possessions did not mean inability to raise a mercenary army.

So Conde could remain loyal to young Louis but feel entitled to getting an important position in a government. Preferably, one on the very top or close. He could make claim to the regent's position which, of course, would not please neither Gaston nor Mazarin. What's left? Position of Connetable is free but it is more or less an empty sound. Being one of the ministers would be below his dignity and, anyway, he does not have any relevant skills. But pushing aside a national hero is much more difficult than doing so in OTL where he was just a hero of few battles (and not superior to Turenne as a general even if he had a precedence as a Prince of Blood). But he is lacking administrative experience and, deservedly, is even more arrogant than in OTL. What he can be given to keep him quiet? The obvious idea is to make him a viceroy of the former Spanish Netherlands but would it be a good idea? Besides an obvious risk of him mismanaging the territory all the way to causing a revolt, there is also a risk of him deciding that he can do just fine without "vice" part and here you have a danger of the modified Fronde of the Princes with a powerful base in Belgium.
 
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@blackswordzero : You are right to remember that Condé ITTL is not the same Condé as OTL (in the first chapter you can see that his date of birth is different). My Condé will have a different character on some points compared to Condé OTL.

@alexmilman : On the other hand, you are right to say that the situation in France remains partly similar to OTL, especially for the Princes who with the disappearance of Richelieu will try to regain importance. The fact that the war was already over in 1643 could help the Regent and Mazarin to keep their popularity as they no longer needed to finance the war and pressurize the population.

Even if Condé is different ITTL, he risks taking the big head by his acquisition of the Spanish Netherlands (he remains human after all). In the next chapter we will see how the relations between Condé, Anne of Austria, Mazarin, Louis XIV as a child, the Parliament of Paris and the Greats of the Kingdom will evolve.
 
I’m hoping that France will become stronger than IOTL, having a larger population and more power so that it willbe one of the strongest powers in Europe. I also expect the map of Europe by around 1900 to be very different from OTL.

great timeline so far.
 
Loving this timeline, it's has a good flow to it and your writing style is a great read, very excited for the next chapter.
Thank you very much! I'm quite happy with the feedback and it motivates me to keep going.
Do you also have ideas for the future?

I’m hoping that France will become stronger than IOTL, having a larger population and more power so that it willbe one of the strongest powers in Europe. I also expect the map of Europe by around 1900 to be very different from OTL.

great timeline so far.
France is going to do much, much, MUCH better. She will succeed in becoming more efficient and will be very lucky.
The map of Europe and the world will change enormously before 1900. Expect that in 1750 a large part of the world will be unrecognizable.
 
Thank you very much! I'm quite happy with the feedback and it motivates me to keep going.
Do you also have ideas for the future
I hope to see a french colonial empire that is well developed, French South Africa and a surviving New France come to mind. And of course I always find very interesting when it shows the political and social changes and reforms within the country.
 
I hope to see a french colonial empire that is well developed, French South Africa and a surviving New France come to mind. And of course I always find very interesting when it shows the political and social changes and reforms within the country.
France will have a very good colonial empire but of course she won't be the only one to have one.
New France will receive many butterflies (the first one being the non capture of Quebec City by Kirke during the Franco-English war).
For South Africa I don't see the French going there for the moment, I have an idea in mind which I hope will be quite original. ;)
Do you have other ideas for alternative or more successful colonies?
 
Thank you very much! I'm quite happy with the feedback and it motivates me to keep going.
Do you also have ideas for the future?


France is going to do much, much, MUCH better. She will succeed in becoming more efficient and will be very lucky.
The map of Europe and the world will change enormously before 1900. Expect that in 1750 a large part of the world will be unrecognizable.
Aren’t you a little bit too optimistic? Let me throw few monkey wrenches, just not to make your life too simple (so far you managed to deal with the problems quite well so here are few more). 🤪

France already grew bigger in a meaningful way by obtaining a well-developed Belgium and as a side effect both breaking the Hapsburg Encirclement and more secure strategically (with a patently friendly Luxembourg Paris is further away from the Northern border. These are pluses.

However, the problems did not disappear because the main players are the same with the same attitudes. Mazarin is in charge and while he is a capable diplomat (seemingly, mostly in the foreign affairs because domestically he managed to piss off pretty much everybody and then spent enormous effort getting out of troubles of his own creation), IIRC, very few good things can be said about his economic policies (except for his ability to get very rich) and those below him are also not quite encouraging. End of the war would not make Mazarin less greedy (ditto for the rest of the court) so I would not bet too much on a tax relief. Anyway, in his internal dealings he was seemingly following Richelieu’s idea that “glory” of the state goes ahead of the well-being of its subjects (well, with the understandable exceptions 🤪). Fouquet was a brilliant thief/wastrel on a scale which would make him suitable for a high position at the court of Catherine II. Colbert was much better but, even without Louis XIV as a factor, he was trying to develop economy by decrees and regulations with a stress upon production of the luxury items because the “lower part” of the internal market was too poor to provide a good purchasing base.

Nobility was not too much into the activities which were below its dignity (with the exception of the speculative schemas) and in that sense it was well behind not only England b even Russia.

Nobility of the mantle .... well, how the lawyers and bureaucrats are helpful in developing economy or making the life better?

Merchant class was rather weak and not inclined toward the risky adventures. IIRC, the French merchant fleet, after all Colbert’s efforts was at least an order of magnitude smaller than the Dutch. Banking was developing but even by the late XVIII France did not have the credit institutions adequate for supporting a growing trade. As for the attitudes, even just before the Revolution the French goods were carried to Russia almost exclusively by the British ships and a trade treaty profitable for France (CII was interested mostly in the list of items disregarding the cost) died on the French side due to the absence of interest.

So, if you are talking about doing better in Richelieu/LXIV sense, this is relatively simple: just maintain a strong army, build up the navy, avoid the policy pitting you against the rest of Europe and you’ll keep expanding in Europe step by step by the direct annexations and/or be creating a net of the allied (to put it politely) states which are also getting something out of your expansion. Among other things, maintain strong alliance with the Dutch helping them against the British competition: balance of the naval powers between these two gives France an opportunity to build up its navy and maintain its colonies (there is still enough of a “free” space for everybody). Getting enough of the German princes as the allies/clients allows to weaken the Austrian Hapsburgs and, when opportunity presents itself, grab some of the Italian possessions of the Spanish ones without causing a powerful anti-French coalition (the Netherlands as the French ally make British involvement on the continent rather difficult). Of course, there is still a big problem with getting enough people to settle in your colonies in North America (and it is rather difficult to maintain Louisiana with its reliance upon a single river). But to be more successful in India was quite realistic. To make the long story short, you’d just need to avoid the major idiocies associated with the reigns of LXIV, XV and XVI.

In the case you mean doing better for the French, good luck. 😂

In both cases I’m waiting for the new chapters.
 
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Do you have other ideas for alternative or more successful colonies?
Well considering Portugal is still within the Iberian Union it might be a good chance to get some of their colonies( Ceylon for a foothold in India, Angola and/or Mozambique for the slave trade, Mollucas for access to the spice islands and future expansion towards Asia).
There's only a few l can think of but depending on how well France develops it's navy they might have better success in other places and maybe even a war with the Dutch that are going to do the same.
 
We're at 1643 right now. The Dutch Cape Colony was established in 1652, so the French have ten years.
Exactly, it's the perfect place for a settler colony maybe with it being a dumping ground for religious minorities or a penal colony, but it's important for them to seize it as it was the pathway to India and eventually find the massive amounts of diamonds and gold.
 
Aren’t you a little bit too optimistic? Let me throw few monkey wrenches, just not to make your life too simple (so far you managed to deal with the problems quite well so here are few more). 🤪

France already grew bigger in a meaningful way by obtaining a well-developed Belgium and as a side effect both breaking the Hapsburg Encirclement and more secure strategically (with a patently friendly Luxembourg Paris is further away from the Northern border. These are pluses.

However, the problems did not disappear because the main players are the same with the same attitudes. Mazarin is in charge and while he is a capable diplomat (seemingly, mostly in the foreign affairs because domestically he managed to piss off pretty much everybody and then spent enormous effort getting out of troubles of his own creation), IIRC, very few good things can be said about his economic policies (except for his ability to get very rich) and those below him are also not quite encouraging. End of the war would not make Mazarin less greedy (ditto for the rest of the court) so I would not bet too much on a tax relief. Anyway, in his internal dealings he was seemingly following Richelieu’s idea that “glory” of the state goes ahead of the well-being of its subjects (well, with the understandable exceptions 🤪). Fouquet was a brilliant thief/wastrel on a scale which would make him suitable for a high position at the court of Catherine II. Colbert was much better but, even without Louis XIV as a factor, he was trying to develop economy by decrees and regulations with a stress upon production of the luxury items because the “lower part” of the internal market was too poor to provide a good purchasing base.
I was not expecting tax relief in France, plus a "no increase". Is this possible or would the upper classes have continued to crush the lower classes under taxation?

Nobility was not too much into the activities which were below its dignity (with the exception of the speculative schemas) and in that sense it was well behind not only England b even Russia.

Nobility of the mantle .... well, how the lawyers and bureaucrats are helpful in developing economy or making the life better?

Merchant class was rather weak and not inclined toward the risky adventures. IIRC, the French merchant fleet, after all Colbert’s efforts was at least an order of magnitude smaller than the Dutch. Banking was developing but even by the late XVIII France did not have the credit institutions adequate for supporting a growing trade. As for the attitudes, even just before the Revolution the French goods were carried to Russia almost exclusively by the British ships and a trade treaty profitable for France (CII was interested mostly in the list of items disregarding the cost) died on the French side due to the absence of interest.
Do you know any competent people who could have developed the French economy at that time? Or was France really too far behind and would have to catch up with it in more or less time?

So, if you are talking about doing better in Richelieu/LXIV sense, this is relatively simple: just maintain a strong army, build up the navy, avoid the policy pitting you against the rest of Europe and you’ll keep expanding in Europe step by step by the direct annexations and/or be creating a net of the allied (to put it politely) states which are also getting something out of your expansion. Among other things, maintain strong alliance with the Dutch helping them against the British competition: balance of the naval powers between these two gives France an opportunity to build up its navy and maintain its colonies (there is still enough of a “free” space for everybody). Getting enough of the German princes as the allies/clients allows to weaken the Austrian Hapsburgs and, when opportunity presents itself, grab some of the Italian possessions of the Spanish ones without causing a powerful anti-French coalition (the Netherlands as the French ally make British involvement on the continent rather difficult). Of course, there is still a big problem with getting enough people to settle in your colonies in North America (and it is rather difficult to maintain Louisiana with its reliance upon a single river). But to be more successful in India was quite realistic. To make the long story short, you’d just need to avoid the major idiocies associated with the reigns of LXIV, XV and XVI.

In the case you mean doing better for the French, good luck. 😂

In both cases I’m waiting for the new chapters.
I quite agree with what you are developing, France will manage to use its various "allies" as well as to play tensions between its potential enemies. France will avoid starting a tradition of "European coalition" turned against her. 🤪
I did not understand one of your sentences: "and it is rather difficult to maintain Louisiana with its reliance upon a single river". How does a single river weaken Louisiana?

Well considering Portugal is still within the Iberian Union it might be a good chance to get some of their colonies( Ceylon for a foothold in India, Angola and/or Mozambique for the slave trade, Mollucas for access to the spice islands and future expansion towards Asia).
There's only a few l can think of but depending on how well France develops it's navy they might have better success in other places and maybe even a war with the Dutch that are going to do the same.
Indeed the Portuguese colonial empire will suffer if Portugal loses its war of restoration. Unless, by some miracle, Madrid succeeds in taking care of it and puts the means in it.

We're at 1643 right now. The Dutch Cape Colony was established in 1652, so the French have ten years.
Exactly, it's the perfect place for a settler colony maybe with it being a dumping ground for religious minorities or a penal colony, but it's important for them to seize it as it was the pathway to India and eventually find the massive amounts of diamonds and gold.
If the war ended sooner for the Dutch they could also settle earlier at the Cape. ;)
In any case expect to be surprised at what will happen in South Africa.
 
I was not expecting tax relief in France, plus a "no increase". Is this possible or would the upper classes have continued to crush the lower classes under taxation?

I'm not sure that it was the "upper class" that crushed the lower classes with the excessive taxes. I'd say that it was a state. Both by the costly foreign policies and by the insane court expenses. The rest was pretty much a domino effect. Extraction of the indirect taxes had been given to the tax farmers. Seemingly, a reasonable move allowing to limit the size of a state-paid bureaucracy and to get the guaranteed lump sums of money but, obviously, the tax farmers expected some profit and, as a result, had been extracting some "extras". Maintaining a big army even in the time of peace cost a lot of money and so did building up the navy and constructing the numerous border fortresses. Maintaining the court was enormously expensive (not to forget the enormous card debts of the royal family and the favorites paid by Louis, various pensions, money grants, etc.). Then goes bureaucracy. The positions had been officially sold by their holders. Obviously, just salary would not justify the payment and a new owner would be doing some squeezing of the "clients". Add this to the general burden.

The peasants were mostly personally free but majority had been the tenants on the lands owned by the upper classes (unlike England, they were practically "hereditary tenants" with the right of selling the land). Of course, they had been paying some dues to the landowners but here goes the next problem. The nobles, typically, owned their land in the small parcels, which would make introduction of the more advanced methods quite difficult even if there was such an intent. When in need of money, they were trying to squeeze more of the manorial duties. OTOH, a majority of even the free farm lots was quite small and often not enough for supporting the family, not to mention investment in some kind of the innovations. Anyway, a big proportion of the nobility was most of the time away from its lands (and could not be present on all of them, anyway) spending time at court (and expecting some tangible benefits from the King) or in military service (again, expecting something from the state).

Income from exports of the manufactured products was limited because strong regulations had been killing the innovations and while France was a leading exporter of the luxury items, the market for these items was not limitless and neither was their nomenclature and volumes.

So, France (as a state) could get more revenue from establishing and expanding the profitable colonies producing and supplying ...er... "colonial goods" (tobacco, spices, sugar, molasses, etc.) or getting actively involved in supplying the slaves to the Spanish and Portuguese American colonies (probably would take a war to get this right from Spain) or establishing a large scale trade from India (AFAIK, at that time Indian states were not too interested in European imports so the profit was made on reselling their goods in Europe). Pretty much what France did or tried to do in OTL but more successfully. I'm not sure if, with a possible exception of the fur trade, Canada and Louisiana were making a lot of sense in an absence of a big number of people willing to emigrate from France to the colonies. Seemingly popular idea of shipping the Huguenots there misses 2 main points: 1st, before abolishing of the Edict of Nantes there was no reason for them to go to the colonies and 2nd, majority of those who preferred to emigrate in OTL were city-dwellers and moving to some German state where they could continue to work according to their skills would make much more sense for them then sailing across the ocean with a purpose to become the farmers or hunters.

This, of course, would not directly improve situation of the farmers in France but, in the best case scenario, could lesser a tax burden.

Then, there could be some smaller things like abolishing of the internal customs, lowering taxes on the salt, etc. Cancelling the Little Ice Age and Great Famine of 1695-1697 also would be nice (;)). Actually, Vauban made some proposals which made Louis very angry (probably meaning that the proposals were good): "Vauban's solution was to levy a flat 10% tax on all agricultural and industrial output, while eliminating tax exemptions, which meant the vast majority of the nobility and clergy paid no taxes.:."

I did not understand one of your sentences: "and it is rather difficult to maintain Louisiana with its reliance upon a single river". How does a single river weaken Louisiana?
Look at the map below: there was a single access point and communications from there mostly done by the Mississippi. Somebody establishes blockade at its mouth and you are completely cut off.

1587660579399.png

Do you know any competent people who could have developed the French economy at that time? Or was France really too far behind and would have to catch up with it in more or less time?

Colbert was quite competent (actually, there were 5 members of his family on state service) but an individual hardly could change people's mindsets, landownership system and many other things by the click of his fingers. It is not that mercantilism was wrong per se (*). Under the circumstances, it was quite right but it looks like at that time France simply could not do Munchausen's trick by pulling himself and the horse on which he was sitting out of a mire by his own hair (see the depiction of this remarkable event below) x'D.
1587658935414.png

Of course, besides the "objective" problems, Louis can be considered as a handicap of a "strategic" proportion capable and willing to screw up pretty much everything so it would not matter whom you chose as his ministers as long as he is around. "If you can't produce a sum that I require, I'll find somebody else who will".

How about improving the general situation by just letting him die quietly as a child from some disease? It seems that Phillipe, with all wrong upbringing that he got, was a much less destructive person. In OTL he proved to be a good general (after which he was never given a command again). Philippe sponsored projects to help maintain his estates and enhance their profitability. He built the Canal d'Orléans, that allowed to transport goods from Orléans to Paris and was a financial founder of a family whose monetary value would rival that of the main line of the House of Bourbon. Plus, was a patron of arts and founder of the Orleans Collection. So perhaps he could be less destructive than his brother and most of the rest would take care of itself. At least, things hardly could be worse (well, you never know).
______________________________
(*) Just a funny factoid which came to my mind. When the future Alexander III was getting his education in economy from a leading Russian specialist in the area (and one of his father's advisors), he was told that the tariffs on imports are a bad idea. The young Alexander (still in his early 20s and generally considered as not too bright) objected that in the case of Russia the high tariffs are necessary to protect the domestic industry. Now, under AII Russian economy was not growing because the low import tariffs were making the fledgling Russian industry non-competitive. AIII reversed the course by introducing the high import tariffs and Russian manufacturing was jump-started. So, the knowledge of a general theory is not always a substitute for a common sense. ;)
 
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