The Sudeten War: History of the World after an Alternate 1938
- Thread starter Onkel Willie
- Start date
The Germans could lose a lot more tanks if they use them in urban warfare as they did OTL in warsaw.
Tanks are best used in open country. Urban fighting gives too many places for infantry and anti-tank teams to ambush tanks.
Sudeten Germans could be a useful source of intel for the Germans.
Tanks are best used in open country. Urban fighting gives too many places for infantry and anti-tank teams to ambush tanks.
There could also be a rebellion by the Sudeten Germans to disrupt Czechoslovakian defence and supply. How well armed the rebels are will depend on if the Germans can airdrop weapons to them or have smuggled weapons in advance.
Sudeten Germans could be a useful source of intel for the Germans.
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Let’s be realistic. Once Czechoslovak army fully mobilized Nazi terrorist lost appetite. And Czechoslovak army was still basically holding back in order not to fuel Nazi propaganda even more. Anyway in TTL Czechoslovak army retreated from most of border region so terrorists abilities to fuel intelligence to Nazi Germany is even lower.
As to tanks, everything up to Pz III and even Pz IV can be destroyed by Czechoslovak ATG. Pz IVs mostly by newer version though but how many Germans had. And somebody may get idea to use AA guns against them.
With the Russians swinging through Rumania, (and Hitler‘s strong anti- Bolshevik stance), couldn’t that push Poland to stand with Germany? After all, Russia was the ”devil they knew”, and they were no friends to the Czechs. And if Poland made this move, wouldn’t that put France and Britain in an awkward position?
ric350
ric350
I think Poland fence sits until it's obvious the German are going to lose and then does a snatch and grab for the land Germany has that they want. Its not like they can gain much in the East that isn't a hastle to hold.
Why the double post of what I said?
AA guns are only useful against tanks if they have AT rounds. OTL the Germans 88 flak guns had them for use against bunkers not for use against tanks.
marathag
Banned
Against 15mm armor, you don't need AP for large caliber cannons, Common HE will still punch thru.
M4s in the Pacific found HE more effective than AP in the few Tank v. Tank fights in the Islands
I just wanted to revisit this post because of an article I encountered dealing with Benes later in the second world war IOTL. Apparently, the USSR was the one country he went out of his way not to anger--in 1944, he actually pledged Czechoslovakia's support for the USSR in a future war with the US and UK. Presumably as a gambit to ensure the return of the Sudetenland, but still--it becomes a little bit easier to understand why he was so despised by everyone else.
I guess before Hitler, it was Benes that everyone loved to hate.
Oh, he did that a lot. Actually he and Masaryk both had an interesting liking for USSR. As late as August 1918, Masaryk was singing praises of the soviets as fellow revolutionaries (somewhat funny, as by that time, the legions have begun fighting the Reds). Later on, he refused to support the Poles against the invasion, though that was partially his distaste for just about every single one of our neighbours. And he really tried to improve the relations, though most of these were finished by Benes.
As for Benes himself, well he was always quite friendly to the Reds (there is even a speculation that he was a soviet spy, though thats quite unlikely). He did conclude the alliance with the USSR (which worsened relations with Romania and weakened the Little Entente), though he only went full pro-USSR when it begun fighting the nazis (mostly due to his anger at Western powers, and due to being an opportunist, though here it is understandable as the USSR had high chance to take CZS).
As much as I don't like Benes. At the end, more or less he realistically analyzed situation. Once France and Poland shot themselves in the foot by no supporting Czechoslovakia in 1938 who can really blame him? Poland historian are describing how Poland try to be realistic in 30-ties but at the end, they were same mistaken as Czechs were, if not more. Czechoslovaks at least realize that without France support they can't defend for longer then couple of weeks, maybe month or two. Poland politicians thought they are bigger dogs in the game. Well they were not.
Sorry for double quote. Must be some glitch in the system as I tapped only once on my phone. Anyway. You may be right w later tanks but seems Czechoslovak AA guns would be able to be employed against German tanks w their current ammunition. 20 mm AA Oerlikons would work against over 80% of German tanks employed. Higher calibers (around 8 cm) with their timed/ impact app 10 kg projectile would be most then sufficient against majority of German tanks. Probably even few Pz IVs employed could get in trouble. OTL Germans used some of Cz AA guns mfged in 20-ties against Maginot line. Did they order special ammunition? I didn't find reference to it though it could be possible. If not and Cz ammunition for these AA guns was good enough against Maginot line, it would be more then enough against German tanks mfged in 1938.
As to Czechoslovak gold reserves. Majority was in foreign banks. From Switzerland to Britain and some other counties. Only 6.5 t were held in Czechoslovak territory. OTL Slovak town Liptovsky Mikulas was designed as temporary capital of Czechoslovak Republic, with government, and I assume gold reserves still held in Czechoslovakia would be evacuated there. Bombing of Prague and it's capture would be for Germans symbolic victory but in reality Czechoslovak Government and military was preparing for it as they pretty realistically realized that without prompt French and British action they are playing for time. I would say in theirs planns they were more realistic then Poles with their huge ego.
As to Skoda, there were OTL plans for evacuation or destruction of factories. Why it should be done differently in TTL? At least some parts of Skoda factories would be damaged enough to forbid Germans to immediately use them.
The 83,5 mm gun could theoretically do this, considering the rather weak armour that most of the German tanks had at that point, and its high quality. The problem here would be to get them to the battle as most were present in the cities. In Prague itself, they could be quite well used, especially if placed in good spots. Perhaps next to the bridges, or on some of the squares
The army high command would by this point be most likely in Vyskov, Moravia. The gold reserves were mostly planned to be evacuated, with the remaining ones taken overland to Romania if necessary. The government would most likely move to Slovakia, when Prague itself would come under threat. Considering the rather quick German advance to Prague and incomplete mobilization, Skoda could be captured somewhat intact, before it could be evacuated. The fighting and perhaps sabotage actions would probably take them out of operation for some time.
The fall of Prague would be more important, as it would probably force CZS forces to abandon the Moldau deffensive line and retreat to the positions at the Bohemia-Moravia border, though this would simply mean another battle, and if this line is breached, then another battle at the Moravia-Slovakia border, both of which are quite mountainous.
Molotov cocktails can take out tanks in urban warfare.
Light tanks(Panzer I and II) tend to fall back when they run into heavier weapons and fall back on their AT guns to lure in enemy tanks.
I think the RN will be moving to cut off Iron ore for Sweeden.
How well the Germans can supply their army in the field will depend on taking railways and Bridges intact.
OTL the Germans got the gold and foreign currency from the central bank including the gold etc moved overseas.
OTL Hitler spent the money and gold he got in less than 6 months.
What about oil? Romania is allied w Czechoslovakia.
OTL he got the gold because Hacha capitulated and Brits actually recognized take over. Still he didn’t get all gold. As far as I remember approximately slightly or around half of it.
OIL indeed will be a problem for the Germans even worse than OTL.
Italy, I think will stay out of the conflict.
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