The Sudeten War: History of the World after an Alternate 1938

About Austria--I think on paper the Allies should have insisted on unraveling the Anschluss and Austria separated from Germany. But practically speaking this is much easier said than done! On paper Austria should be separate, but the problem is that a large majority of the Austrian population wanted unity with Germany. So, if Allies much stronger than their actual power was as of the end of the ATL Sudeten War were to arbitrarily demand Austro-German separation, we'd wind up with two nations largely overlapping each other in government policy terms, seeking formal Anschluss again at the first opportunity. If some coalition of powers were to maintain the separation, they would find the two independent nations acting as one de facto anyway.

But in fact, who advocates for this separation? On paper Britain and France ought to, but I think they regard it as an exercise in futility. Pre-Anschluss, Mussolini opposed it, because the authoritarian regime in Austria was a client of his, but after Hitler took Austria he made sure to reach out to Mussolini and cultivate him as an ally, and by now even with the embarrassment of Hitler's collapse, I suppose Mussolini prefers to cultivate good relations with Germany as a whole, and has no interest in seeing Austria carved off again. The Soviets probably favored the separation vigorously but their power to demand it was limited. The only nation with a deep and powerful reason to want this separation is Czechoslovakia. The Yugoslavs might want it too. But Czechia is most immediately and grossly threatened. But they don't have the power to demand it, and again if they could it would be like trying to sweep the ocean back with a broom
 
Of course it is--relatively. Absolutely, I don't believe Stalin, who clearly has control over the Spanish regime, is going to order a Red Bloc strike against the bourgeois powers--nor will the four powers attack Spain, Czechoslovakia or the USSR. On paper, as a Bolshevik, Stalin is supposed to be actively working to destroy bourgeois power, but two things rein him in.

On the abstract level, Bolshevism certainly is a declaration of war against capitalist order...but it also emphasizes that it is the common people of this or that nation who are expected to rise up and defeat their own capitalists. This is of course not what happened in either Spain or Czechoslovakia! In both cases it was actually a case of Red Army presence escalating to commanding levels, giving cover for NKVD purging and manipulations. At least that is what happened in Spain--it does seem to me that when CZ goes Red, they will do so by democratic vote. And it remains to be seen whether Stalin will have the sort of autocratic power he does by this point have in both USSR and Spain. So--the Soviet Union, by Leninist doctrine, is always at war with the capitalist powers great and small, and must expect to be brutally and heavily attacked. But it is ambiguous in terms of that doctrine whether the Soviet state has any obligation to make war on behalf of a people who have not effectively challenged the legitimacy of their bourgeois governments themselves first. If it is convenient to claim this, in some opportunistic instance, then yes the Red Army can surge across the border and conquer a neighbor. But vice versa if it is not convenient, and serious and heavy war seems a likely consequence of such an intervention, then any Communist is on solid ground saying the "correlation of forces" is adverse and that it is after all the responsibility of the proletariat of each nation to rise up, and that if they can do this then the USSR is obliged to back them up as ally and patron. And not before!

More pragmatically, Stalin has reason to worry about some military leader becoming very popular due to battlefield success, and couping himself out as a Napoleon expy. Thus, his OTL policy of raising up a massive Red Army, and then not ordering it on any offensives until after Hitler struck at him and sent the whole force reeling. Well of course not zero--certainly they attacked Finland, and Poland, and took over the Baltic Republics by force and extorted concessions from Romania. But all of these actions were under cover of the Hitler-Stalin Pact. Without that in place, we have no reason to think Stalin will order any offensives--except in the sense of intervening in a civil war, as in Spain.

So--in real life, I don't believe either side will attack the other. But certainly if a civil war were to break out in France, Red Spain would be a base from which the Soviets would project material power to aid (and attempt to seize control of) the left faction.

And while I am quite certain Stalin will not in fact order the first blow, I suppose there are lots of political leaders and mass numbers of voters in such nations as France, the UK, still more in Germany, as well as many smaller nations, who assume the Reds will in fact attack at some point, and are very keen to advocate military preparedness against this at least, and in some cases will be preaching a preemptive strike against the Reds--if not so foolhardy as to strike at the Soviet Union itself, then perhaps quite gung ho for "liberation" of Spain today, and Czechoslovakia tomorrow.

Now compare this to Franco OTL. During WWII, which might be the period your comment is limited to, Franco had strong ties to the Axis--yet he procrastinated and temporized and ultimately managed to avoid being tagged as an Axis state. (Quite aside from crediting Franco with any serious regard for the interests of Spaniards generally, which I suppose he had in some limited and conditional sense, it was only pragmatic for him not to let himself be unambiguously tagged as a puppet of Hitler's. Had he done so, and let Hitler have his way in all things, he himself it seems likely to me would be couped out one fine day in favor of someone more amenable to taking Hitler's orders. And meanwhile, the Allies would damn him as another Quisling and tighten up the blockade, and take control of most of Spain's colonies, ultimately all of them; Spain would probably not get them back. Especially if Spain were not invaded and conquered and Franco survived to negotiate terms with the Allies. Spain was deeply dependent on imports which Allied blockades limited but did not choke off; being branded an Axis member would hurt Spain terribly even if neither side actually fought there.

Then after the war, Franco (except insofar as we bracket him and Portugal's Salazar as essentially two of a kind) was absolutely alone if they wanted to identify as a "fascist" power. I think yeah, Franco was surely a fascist, but it was not in the interest of the Allies (except possibly the Soviets, but they had other fish to fry) to take the position they were that. With no strong fascist power to ally with, in cold blooded realpolitik terms Spain was no threat, and once the rift between Soviets and the rest of the western Allies solidified, Franco was actually courted as a reliable anti-Communist. Eventually there were American bases there and long before Franco died, Spain was formally in NATO.

So you can't draw any meaningful parallel between Francoist Spain and TTL's Red Spain, certainly not after 1945 OTL. With Hitler's collapse, opposition to Franco outside Spain was a purely political position. Plenty of Americans or Britons or French people could despise him as a fascist, and rightly so IMHO--I'm one of these western leftists you see. But their national governments had no quarrel with him and no fear of his regime as any kind of threat to anyone but perhaps, in sentimental moments of reflection, his own national subjects. But no Western NATO nation made an issue of it as a matter of formal policy. Certainly not Uncle Sam.

Red Spain on the other hand is going to be seen as a dangerous front of Soviet power; the only thing that can mitigate the perception (at the level of national policy, if not the mythic public opinion of each nation's citizens, which will be divided in fact, no nation is ever of one mind!) that Spain is an enemy would be if some of these nations were to find it convenient or necessary to ally with the Soviet bloc. Which doesn't seem likely to happen any time soon.

Can Stalinist control lead to Spain developing its potentials to become a serious threat in its own right? I doubt it, I doubt Spain has the population even if ruthless Stalinist industrialization policies cause the abstract per capita material wealth of Spain to increase considerably. And realistically Stalinist development will create liabilities even as it also leverages assets into being. As a leftist of strongly socialist views, I believe in principle an anti-propertarian, anti-market, socialist regime might be able to prosper on all fronts--though I can't point to any successful examples. Specifically Stalinist policy will be a mixed bag in outcomes, that is I fear all too certain.

Spain's objective threat is limited then, and is mainly serious insofar as the Soviets can project power there, setting up bases for planes and ships and masses of men. If it comes to open war, the Western powers, even with Germany sitting it out, have ample power to cut Spain off and thus create great hardship there and probably greatly stifle whatever material productivity the Stalinist planners can foster. Again, this is without taking a step in the direction of actually invading to intervene.

If a situation arises where Spain is invaded, I suppose the collapse of the Stalinist Red state there is inevitable. But I also think such invaders and any conservative Spanish who ally with such invaders will face a really ugly and tough insurgency. It would be no cheap victory.

And such a piecemeal rollback of Red power could in fact trigger general war with the Soviets.

But since Western leaders are mostly going to assume Stalin intends to attack somewhere or other some day soon, Spain will trouble them as a costly threat as long as such tensions exist.

Man, it is been a long time since I read one of your comments.

You have the ability to make complex history into literature, which is why I love reading them so much.

But let us remember something: on the world stage, Stalin was first and foremost a geopolitical thinker.

Like all geopolitical thinkers, every decision, good or (in the case of Stalin, very) bad, was based off the geopolitical interests of the Red Russian Empire he ruled.

Whether it was purging the Ukrainians, deporting the Chechens and the Volga Germans, or even enjoying a siesta with his fascist enemy, all of Stalin's decisions were based off securing his own power.

Building communist puppet states was not about spreading the workers' paradise, but engaging in the centuries-long Russian battle for more buffer states to defend against enemy invasion.

Whether or not Stalin intends to use Spain will depend on whether or not he sees Spain as necessary to the survival of his country.

OTL, he wasn't as committed to the Republicans as the Italians and Germans were to Franco, so I don't know TTL if he'll really care much about what Red Spain does with its existance.

TTL, if the Cold War comes early, perhaps he'll arm them as a bulwark against the West.

Or perhaps Spain's communist go for the Tito approach of "neutral, capitalist-friendly communism."
 
The red army coming up with a doctrine which took Germany two years and two wars to develop and 4 years of traning may be possible but implementing it in less than a year is pretty ambitious. But radio in all tanks was not achievable to the red army until 1989(!) and waa actually not desired.

The red army until 1989 never placed emphasis to Auftragsdoktrin nor any individual or planning or initiative, as this all would go completely against the doctrines of the party.

So without the humiliation of Finland the red army making a radical change in doctrine and employing tactics that they OTL took until 43 to learn....

I dunno.
 
The red army coming up with a doctrine which took Germany two years and two wars to develop and 4 years of traning may be possible but implementing it in less than a year is pretty ambitious. But radio in all tanks was not achievable to the red army until 1989(!) and waa actually not desired.

The red army until 1989 never placed emphasis to Auftragsdoktrin nor any individual or planning or initiative, as this all would go completely against the doctrines of the party.

So without the humiliation of Finland the red army making a radical change in doctrine and employing tactics that they OTL took until 43 to learn....

I dunno.
Indeed.
While the theory of deep battle was around in the 1930s it is hard to know if the Soviets could use it in 1938.
The radios in all tanks I do not think is possible. How many of the radios would work or what range they would have is hard to say.
I suspect the Soviets had a lot more problem than the lack of radios in tanks.

The Development of Soviet Armour and its Doctrine 1918-1941​

 
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1989 sounds a bit excessive? IIRC radios were generalized way earlier.

Anyway, the French and British will probably be continuing their OTL rearmament plans, just not necessarily with the same urgency as in wartime. I think Italy's failure in Spain will force a major rearmament.
 
I wonder how well the persecution of the Church in Spain will actually go. The Soviet experiment with state atheism was interrupted by the Great Patriotic War and consequent truce with the Moscow Patriarchate. While they succeeded in neutralizing religion in public life, it persisted low-level in private life--and, if the propagation of UFO cults and nonsense theories like Phantom Time, alternative medicine, Lysenkoism, etc. is any indication, they didn't do that well in promoting rationalist critical thinking in its place. But I don't anticipate a Second Spanish Civil War in the near future--so will Spain end up looking more like East Germany or more like Poland in fifty years' time? Culturally, I want to suggest Mexico as the closest analogy--since it was also a Latin country whose government tried to enforce anticlerical measures--but the Cristero War ended in the government largely backing down (though in theory the Mexican constitution still promotes anticlericalism to this day).

One thing the Tsarist authorities in Poland once did to weaken the Catholic church was give support to competing sects (like the Mariavites). In fact, the post-WWII communists continued the practice (the branch of the Polish National Catholic Church in Poland was basically subjugated to the interests of the Communist Party). On the other hand, the Soviets were no more tolerant of Baptist missionaries in Ukraine than they were of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, to my knowledge. So which method is more likely in Spain--toleration of any non-Catholic religious organization that can peel believers away from Rome, or total antireligious persecution?
 
I wonder how well the persecution of the Church in Spain will actually go. The Soviet experiment with state atheism was interrupted by the Great Patriotic War and consequent truce with the Moscow Patriarchate. While they succeeded in neutralizing religion in public life, it persisted low-level in private life--and, if the propagation of UFO cults and nonsense theories like Phantom Time, alternative medicine, Lysenkoism, etc. is any indication, they didn't do that well in promoting rationalist critical thinking in its place. But I don't anticipate a Second Spanish Civil War in the near future--so will Spain end up looking more like East Germany or more like Poland in fifty years' time? Culturally, I want to suggest Mexico as the closest analogy--since it was also a Latin country whose government tried to enforce anticlerical measures--but the Cristero War ended in the government largely backing down (though in theory the Mexican constitution still promotes anticlericalism to this day).

One thing the Tsarist authorities in Poland once did to weaken the Catholic church was give support to competing sects (like the Mariavites). In fact, the post-WWII communists continued the practice (the branch of the Polish National Catholic Church in Poland was basically subjugated to the interests of the Communist Party). On the other hand, the Soviets were no more tolerant of Baptist missionaries in Ukraine than they were of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, to my knowledge. So which method is more likely in Spain--toleration of any non-Catholic religious organization that can peel believers away from Rome, or total antireligious persecution?


If Stalin and his successors couldn't destroy the Orthodox Church, what makes you think the Spanish commies can destroy the Catholic Church? In fact, I can definitely picture the Catholic Church becoming a form of resistance in Spain, eventually bubbling up to the surface once TTL Communism goes into decline.

OTL, Communist regimes tried all kinds of strategies. OTL The only place where this was....possibly successful in wiping out religion was in Albania, but not in the way Hoxha intended. According to what I've read, the reason why Albanians aren't religious fanatics is because Hoxha made them wary of any kind of fanaticism, even religious.

Other times, Communist regimes try and co-opt it. Think of how the CCP has revived Confuscianism and other old Chinese traditions to give themselves legitimacy. Or how the CCP has put a kid in monk robes and created their own Panchen Lama, after kidnapping the one Tenzin chose.

In short, oppressive governments pull all kinds of crazy stunts to give themselves legitimacy.
 
Red Gold staying in Madrid rather than Moscow for 'safekeeping' has a number of changes for even a Communist nation.
 
France and Britain never bothered to do so IOTL. I guess Spain wasn't high on their list of priorities. Italy might try, but would Mussolini risk conflict with the Soviets? They might win in Spain, but not in the Balkans IMHO. And of course there's the option of using maskirovka to get them in.

Not to mention the fact that they didn't bother to do so with Germany either (at least Italy can make a straight shot to Spain via the Mediterranean so yeah.)

Stalinist Spain huh...either you've been playing HoI4 or I need to (because I've never touched Spain in the vanilla game, and I should change that.)
 
Of course it is--relatively. Absolutely, I don't believe Stalin, who clearly has control over the Spanish regime, is going to order a Red Bloc strike against the bourgeois powers--nor will the four powers attack Spain, Czechoslovakia or the USSR. On paper, as a Bolshevik, Stalin is supposed to be actively working to destroy bourgeois power, but two things rein him in.

On the abstract level, Bolshevism certainly is a declaration of war against capitalist order...but it also emphasizes that it is the common people of this or that nation who are expected to rise up and defeat their own capitalists. This is of course not what happened in either Spain or Czechoslovakia! In both cases it was actually a case of Red Army presence escalating to commanding levels, giving cover for NKVD purging and manipulations. At least that is what happened in Spain--it does seem to me that when CZ goes Red, they will do so by democratic vote. And it remains to be seen whether Stalin will have the sort of autocratic power he does by this point have in both USSR and Spain. So--the Soviet Union, by Leninist doctrine, is always at war with the capitalist powers great and small, and must expect to be brutally and heavily attacked. But it is ambiguous in terms of that doctrine whether the Soviet state has any obligation to make war on behalf of a people who have not effectively challenged the legitimacy of their bourgeois governments themselves first. If it is convenient to claim this, in some opportunistic instance, then yes the Red Army can surge across the border and conquer a neighbor. But vice versa if it is not convenient, and serious and heavy war seems a likely consequence of such an intervention, then any Communist is on solid ground saying the "correlation of forces" is adverse and that it is after all the responsibility of the proletariat of each nation to rise up, and that if they can do this then the USSR is obliged to back them up as ally and patron. And not before!

More pragmatically, Stalin has reason to worry about some military leader becoming very popular due to battlefield success, and couping himself out as a Napoleon expy. Thus, his OTL policy of raising up a massive Red Army, and then not ordering it on any offensives until after Hitler struck at him and sent the whole force reeling. Well of course not zero--certainly they attacked Finland, and Poland, and took over the Baltic Republics by force and extorted concessions from Romania. But all of these actions were under cover of the Hitler-Stalin Pact. Without that in place, we have no reason to think Stalin will order any offensives--except in the sense of intervening in a civil war, as in Spain.

So--in real life, I don't believe either side will attack the other. But certainly if a civil war were to break out in France, Red Spain would be a base from which the Soviets would project material power to aid (and attempt to seize control of) the left faction.

And while I am quite certain Stalin will not in fact order the first blow, I suppose there are lots of political leaders and mass numbers of voters in such nations as France, the UK, still more in Germany, as well as many smaller nations, who assume the Reds will in fact attack at some point, and are very keen to advocate military preparedness against this at least, and in some cases will be preaching a preemptive strike against the Reds--if not so foolhardy as to strike at the Soviet Union itself, then perhaps quite gung ho for "liberation" of Spain today, and Czechoslovakia tomorrow.

Now compare this to Franco OTL. During WWII, which might be the period your comment is limited to, Franco had strong ties to the Axis--yet he procrastinated and temporized and ultimately managed to avoid being tagged as an Axis state. (Quite aside from crediting Franco with any serious regard for the interests of Spaniards generally, which I suppose he had in some limited and conditional sense, it was only pragmatic for him not to let himself be unambiguously tagged as a puppet of Hitler's. Had he done so, and let Hitler have his way in all things, he himself it seems likely to me would be couped out one fine day in favor of someone more amenable to taking Hitler's orders. And meanwhile, the Allies would damn him as another Quisling and tighten up the blockade, and take control of most of Spain's colonies, ultimately all of them; Spain would probably not get them back. Especially if Spain were not invaded and conquered and Franco survived to negotiate terms with the Allies. Spain was deeply dependent on imports which Allied blockades limited but did not choke off; being branded an Axis member would hurt Spain terribly even if neither side actually fought there.

Then after the war, Franco (except insofar as we bracket him and Portugal's Salazar as essentially two of a kind) was absolutely alone if they wanted to identify as a "fascist" power. I think yeah, Franco was surely a fascist, but it was not in the interest of the Allies (except possibly the Soviets, but they had other fish to fry) to take the position they were that. With no strong fascist power to ally with, in cold blooded realpolitik terms Spain was no threat, and once the rift between Soviets and the rest of the western Allies solidified, Franco was actually courted as a reliable anti-Communist. Eventually there were American bases there and long before Franco died, Spain was formally in NATO.

So you can't draw any meaningful parallel between Francoist Spain and TTL's Red Spain, certainly not after 1945 OTL. With Hitler's collapse, opposition to Franco outside Spain was a purely political position. Plenty of Americans or Britons or French people could despise him as a fascist, and rightly so IMHO--I'm one of these western leftists you see. But their national governments had no quarrel with him and no fear of his regime as any kind of threat to anyone but perhaps, in sentimental moments of reflection, his own national subjects. But no Western NATO nation made an issue of it as a matter of formal policy. Certainly not Uncle Sam.

Red Spain on the other hand is going to be seen as a dangerous front of Soviet power; the only thing that can mitigate the perception (at the level of national policy, if not the mythic public opinion of each nation's citizens, which will be divided in fact, no nation is ever of one mind!) that Spain is an enemy would be if some of these nations were to find it convenient or necessary to ally with the Soviet bloc. Which doesn't seem likely to happen any time soon.

Can Stalinist control lead to Spain developing its potentials to become a serious threat in its own right? I doubt it, I doubt Spain has the population even if ruthless Stalinist industrialization policies cause the abstract per capita material wealth of Spain to increase considerably. And realistically Stalinist development will create liabilities even as it also leverages assets into being. As a leftist of strongly socialist views, I believe in principle an anti-propertarian, anti-market, socialist regime might be able to prosper on all fronts--though I can't point to any successful examples. Specifically Stalinist policy will be a mixed bag in outcomes, that is I fear all too certain.

Spain's objective threat is limited then, and is mainly serious insofar as the Soviets can project power there, setting up bases for planes and ships and masses of men. If it comes to open war, the Western powers, even with Germany sitting it out, have ample power to cut Spain off and thus create great hardship there and probably greatly stifle whatever material productivity the Stalinist planners can foster. Again, this is without taking a step in the direction of actually invading to intervene.

If a situation arises where Spain is invaded, I suppose the collapse of the Stalinist Red state there is inevitable. But I also think such invaders and any conservative Spanish who ally with such invaders will face a really ugly and tough insurgency. It would be no cheap victory.

And such a piecemeal rollback of Red power could in fact trigger general war with the Soviets.

But since Western leaders are mostly going to assume Stalin intends to attack somewhere or other some day soon, Spain will trouble them as a costly threat as long as such tensions exist.
One day I should probe your mind on your ideas on your ideological views as someone who, while having monarchist sympathies and is opposed to fascistic or authoritarian views, really has no ideology to call his own.
 
I'm not really expecting Spain to be very useful in an actual conflict, however the potential threat of Soviet forces being stationed there could be enough to at least cause pause for the Western Europeans.

And it's a test for Stalin "supporting" potential allies in their internal affairs I suppose.
 
France and Britain never bothered to do so IOTL. I guess Spain wasn't high on their list of priorities. Italy might try, but would Mussolini risk conflict with the Soviets? They might win in Spain, but not in the Balkans IMHO. And of course there's the option of using maskirovka to get them in.
I think Mussolini might be willing to risk this kind of conflict. 1. Italian sea-power in the Med would suffice to make maritime interdiction at least a possibility; 2. the cause is politically useful to him - he can present himself as the leader of "Europe's resistance to Bolshevism" (or some such phrase), which is useful to him both at home and diplomatically; 3. a spread of the conflict to the Balkans isn't certain, and would in any case such a spread wouldn't immediately threaten Italy; 4. London & Paris aren't going to do more than grumble (they will not take any risks on Stalin's behalf). Also, a clear loss in Spain, after such a heavy Italian investment there, would hurt Mussolini's regime significantly.

Nit pick. A Customs Union would be a huge deal amongst the 4 powers. I think a vague commitment to a customs alignment is closer to what you have in mind.
Yes - I don't see any of the four going for a customs union - though a free trade area might be possible perhaps with sector-specific deals.
 
I wonder how well the persecution of the Church in Spain will actually go. The Soviet experiment with state atheism was interrupted by the Great Patriotic War and consequent truce with the Moscow Patriarchate. While they succeeded in neutralizing religion in public life, it persisted low-level in private life--and, if the propagation of UFO cults and nonsense theories like Phantom Time, alternative medicine, Lysenkoism, etc. is any indication, they didn't do that well in promoting rationalist critical thinking in its place. But I don't anticipate a Second Spanish Civil War in the near future--so will Spain end up looking more like East Germany or more like Poland in fifty years' time? Culturally, I want to suggest Mexico as the closest analogy--since it was also a Latin country whose government tried to enforce anticlerical measures--but the Cristero War ended in the government largely backing down (though in theory the Mexican constitution still promotes anticlericalism to this day).

One thing the Tsarist authorities in Poland once did to weaken the Catholic church was give support to competing sects (like the Mariavites). In fact, the post-WWII communists continued the practice (the branch of the Polish National Catholic Church in Poland was basically subjugated to the interests of the Communist Party). On the other hand, the Soviets were no more tolerant of Baptist missionaries in Ukraine than they were of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, to my knowledge. So which method is more likely in Spain--toleration of any non-Catholic religious organization that can peel believers away from Rome, or total antireligious persecution?
A lot depends on how much of a threat Stalin sees the Catholic church as.
I could see Opus Dei being a target for the NKVD.
How the rest of the Catholic world reacts will be interesting.
 
Yes - I don't see any of the four going for a customs union - though a free trade area might be possible perhaps with sector-specific deals.

Maybe. But the animosity between France and Germany I think needs to thaw a lot more before much can happen at all. Without the events of ww2 something bug needs to happen to change their relations before they can move or even want to move forward with this sort of thing.
 
A lot depends on how much of a threat Stalin sees the Catholic church as.
I could see Opus Dei being a target for the NKVD.
How the rest of the Catholic world reacts will be interesting.
St. Josemaria Escriva himself probably joins Franco in exile, but may return to Spain thereafter as an underground priest. Possibly gets martyred by the Republican secret police.

Salvador Dali IOTL refrained from a public statement for or against the Republic until the war ended, and thereafter professed support for Falange. Would he be a crypto-Nationalist ITTL, or back the winning horse? Though I'm not sure the Republicans would have him--Surrealism and Socialist Realism don't mix.
 
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