The Stillborn States of India: The Nation-States That Could Have Been

I can actually see that working very well for mixed-ethnic states. Not all of them, of course, but in at least one or two I can see the majority/plurality ethnic group supporting the King partly for being one of them (and therefore amenable to their interests) and also for being a ceremonial religious leader and 'defender of the faith', whatever that faith is. However, the King can simultaneously be a defender of minorities, granting special privileges and protections to minority castes/ethnicities/religions. They in turn would support the king in order to protect their interests, and so a 'nation' arises out of multiple, possibly conflicting ethnicities due to all parties coming to rely on and respect the king.

The problem is then one of just how much power and devolution to grant. The Hapsburgs managed to calm Hungarian nationalism by elevating Hungary to equal status with Austria but then the Bohemians and Yugoslavs started getting grumpy. Vijayanagar will actually be in a directly analogous position with the royal family being Kannada and the Tamils being probably the largest single ethnic groupin the Empire but with a large Telegu population and a smaller but still distinct Malayalee population.

Also, sorry, I know I seem to be focusing on Vijayanagar but thats just because thats where my interest lies. I don't want to seem like I'm running this scenario down.
 
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The problem is then one of just how much power and devolution to grant. The Hapsburgs managed to calm Hungarian nationalism by elevating Hungary to equal status with Austria but then the Bohemians and Yugoslavs started getting grumpy. Vijayanagar will actually be in a directly analogous position with the royal family being Kannada and the Tamils being probably the largest single ethnic groupin the Empire but with a large Telegu population and a smaller but still distinct Malayalee population.

Also, sorry, I know I seem to be focusing on Vijayanagar but thats just because thats where my interest lies. I don't want to seem like I'm running this scenario down.

Well, as with the Hapsburgs the power equilibrium between Royals and 'States' would more then likely shift as either side tries to gain more power for themselves, it just depends if their struggles destroys the unity of the Empire.

Also, while not spefifically on Vijayanagar I think that it would collapse all the same but, another analogoue-successor would emerge to take its place. Something of a Time of Trouble Russia though, their successor would no doubt draw up on the past history of the Vij. as a glorious period and probably referance it as a sort of nationalism.
 
Here's a couple ideas for Hindustani nation states:

An interesting scenario for a Bengali nation state would be if Raja Ganesha's dynasty survived. They were known for their liberal justice, and (AFAIK) were the only 'Ajlaf' Muslim dynasty of the era.
Ajlaf meaning Native Hindustani, as opposed to Turkic-Persian migrants.

Another scenario, a "Rajput Reconquista" of the Delhi Sultanate, but the principalities would have to be united by a Maratha-esque Prithviraj for them to ever truly unite.
 
During the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries, when Vijayanagar Empire was established and was flourishing, the linguistic groups had not emerged as in the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Kannada and Telugu had emerged and Malayalam had separated from Tamil. But languages were not identified as a basis for nationalism. The loyalty was to the king and the kingdom. The "nation" was not yet born. The language was not much important for the rulers then. I think the Vijayanagar rulers stressed on a Hindu identity than any linguistic identity.
Had the Chola Empire lasted a few more centuries and consolidated in the whole of the South, perhaps a Tamil "Nation" covering the entire South might have emerged. If the Cholas had lasted the necessity of "Vijayanagar" itself wouldn't have risen. Perhaps the Cholas shouldn't have squandered their resources in the South East Asia but should have tried to conquer and consolidate in the Subcontinent itself.
After the fall of Vijayanagar, it was the Marathas who got the chance to build a "national" empire. Again it was the untimely death of Shivaji which gave the initial setback for the Marathas. Shivaji died in 1680 and Aurangzeb died in 1707. Shivaji was ten years younger than Aurangzeb. How different history would have been if their dates of death were interchanged!! The Mughals would have collapsed earlier and the Marathas could have consolidated their empire! By the middle of the eighteenth century Marathas had more than half of the subcontinent under their rule.
 
The problem is then one of just how much power and devolution to grant. The Hapsburgs managed to calm Hungarian nationalism by elevating Hungary to equal status with Austria but then the Bohemians and Yugoslavs started getting grumpy. Vijayanagar will actually be in a directly analogous position with the royal family being Kannada and the Tamils being probably the largest single ethnic groupin the Empire but with a large Telegu population and a smaller but still distinct Malayalee population.

Also, sorry, I know I seem to be focusing on Vijayanagar but thats just because thats where my interest lies. I don't want to seem like I'm running this scenario down.

Well, Vijaynagar has something Austria-Hungary didn't-the overwhelming majority of its population is of one religion (Hinduism)

Thinking about this, I wonder if Vijay could have constructed a national identity around Hinduism-maybe the ruling dynasty promotes itself as the "defenders of Hinduism" against the Muslim powers of northern India. Especially if the Mughals (or an ATL analogue) arise and conquer everything north of the Deccan, leading southern Indians to see unity under Vijaynagar as the only thing preventing them from falling under Muslim rule as well.
 
Well, Vijaynagar has something Austria-Hungary didn't-the overwhelming majority of its population is of one religion (Hinduism)

Thinking about this, I wonder if Vijay could have constructed a national identity around Hinduism-maybe the ruling dynasty promotes itself as the "defenders of Hinduism" against the Muslim powers of northern India. Especially if the Mughals (or an ATL analogue) arise and conquer everything north of the Deccan, leading southern Indians to see unity under Vijaynagar as the only thing preventing them from falling under Muslim rule as well.

Hinduism varies hugely across India. Even within South India the traditions practiced by Tamils are different to those of Karnataka, the Telinganas and the Malayalees.

Vijayanagara did portray itself as the defender of Hinduism but while that works to an extent, keep in mind that there are sizeable and non aggressive non Hindu minorities in Tamil Nadu and Kerala.

As with the Austrians, all these strategies are workable but are going to lay the seeds of future disunity.
 
Hinduism varies hugely across India. Even within South India the traditions practiced by Tamils are different to those of Karnataka, the Telinganas and the Malayalees.

Vijayanagara did portray itself as the defender of Hinduism but while that works to an extent, keep in mind that there are sizeable and non aggressive non Hindu minorities in Tamil Nadu and Kerala.

As with the Austrians, all these strategies are workable but are going to lay the seeds of future disunity.

Hmmm didn't they have a founding myth where the two brothers were ordained by a local version of Vishnu or Shiva or something like that?
 
Hmmm didn't they have a founding myth where the two brothers were ordained by a local version of Vishnu or Shiva or something like that?

I'm sure they did and that will be a great bit of dynastic propaganda. However, my point was that just saying 'Oh they're all Hindu' is oversimplifying the situation because 'Hindu' means different things in different times and places.
 
Hmmm didn't they have a founding myth where the two brothers were ordained by a local version of Vishnu or Shiva or something like that?

Harihara Raya I and Bukka Raya I, were the brothers who established the Vijayanagara Kingdom. They were guided by Vidyaranya, an exponent of Advaitha School of philosophy. The main works of Vidyaranya are Sarva darsana sangraha and Parasara Madhaviya. Vidyaranya also had served as the 12th Jagadguru of Sringeri Sharada Peetham, from 1380 to 1386. Sringeri Sharada Peetham is one of the four seats of Shankaracharyas established by Shri Shankaracharya in Badrinath, Puri, Sringeri and Dwarka, at four corners of India.
Vidyaranya was the guide and mentor of the founders of Vijayanagara and served as their high priest and minister also. His role was similar to that of Chanakya who was the guide and mentor of Chandragupta Maurya in establishing the Mauryan Empire.
 
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