The Spruce Goose Flies Successfully

NapoleonXIV

Banned
WI Howard Hughes famous plane, still the biggest ever built I think, had been a success, delivered at the earliest possible date in WWII and immediately put to work ferrying troops and cargo, which it does with an admirable safety record and no losses? Would it have shortened the conflict? What would happen afterwards, would the era of the jumbos come two decades early?
 

Dean_the_Young

I'd like to point out that it did fly successfully, btw.

Really, not much change. It might move troops faster, and could conceivably see some use in the D-Day operations across the globe, but it's not a war-winning method, and it has the risk of being shot down if it tries to be ambitious.
 

PMN1

I dont think you would have 'jumbos' earlier - after all nothing much was done with the Brabazon and Constitution airframes.
 

David S Poepoe

Banned
PMN1 said:
I dont think you would have 'jumbos' earlier - after all nothing much was done with the Brabazon and Constitution airframes.
Click to expand...

Are you talking about the Lockheed Constellation?

You are perfectly right. A temporary brake on aircraft design was the demilitarization of military air transports immediately after the Second World War. Consolidated had built a transport version of their Peacemaker bomber, even outlined a seaplane version, but there was no market for 'jumbo' planes with hundreds of DC-3s flooding the market.

The first real 'jumbo' plane after the war - and commercially successful - was the Boeing Stratocruiser.
 

CDurham

The main problems were that it was obsolete by war's end. For starters it was made mainly out of wood... even Amelia Earhart's plane was made out of metal for strength... in the 1930's. In addition, it was a flying boat, it couldn't land on a runway which makes it a poor choice for a transport as it was invisioned to be.
 

CanadianGoose

Banned
CDurham said:
In addition, it was a flying boat, it couldn't land on a runway which makes it a poor choice for a transport as it was invisioned to be.
Click to expand...
Actually being flying boat is a huge advantage for a big passenger plane, as it is infinitely easier to find/built big shallow lagoon than to built and maintain 2-mile long airstrips. It was poor aerodynamics what killed flying boats, not their landing shortcomings.

Early and successfull career of the Spruce Goose could enforce idea of a seaplane as viable alternative, although I would not bet on it.
 

PMN1

How about the Saunders Roe P192

Length 318ft, Span 313ft, Height 88ft.

Powered by 24 RR Conways, it could carry 1,000 passengers with accommodation similar to that provided by a luxury liner.

Accommodation laid out over five decks to enable passengers to eat and sleep on board, with lounges and bars.

​
 

PMN1

David S Poepoe said:
Are you talking about the Lockheed Constellation?

You are perfectly right. A temporary brake on aircraft design was the demilitarization of military air transports immediately after the Second World War. Consolidated had built a transport version of their Peacemaker bomber, even outlined a seaplane version, but there was no market for 'jumbo' planes with hundreds of DC-3s flooding the market.

The first real 'jumbo' plane after the war - and commercially successful - was the Boeing Stratocruiser.
Click to expand...

I suspect there just was not the market although it would be interesting to find out if there were any studies at converting the Brabazon and Constellation to high density seating, though i'd not be too keen on crossing the Atlantic at piston or turboprop speeds in high density seating.
 

David S Poepoe

Banned
PMN1 said:
How about the Saunders Roe P192

Length 318ft, Span 313ft, Height 88ft.

Powered by 24 RR Conways, it could carry 1,000 passengers with accommodation similar to that provided by a luxury liner.

Accommodation laid out over five decks to enable passengers to eat and sleep on board, with lounges and bars.

​
Click to expand...

Ah, the Princess! Absolutely magnificent flying boat.

I actually think that flying boats could still have been successful at least thru the 1980s in way out places like Micronesia and Southeast Asia sort of island hopping carrying cargo and passengers. The only problem being the overhead in running the planes.

I think they could make a return for taking tourist to more remote sites where it would be hard to build a airport. Granted there are limitations.
 

David S Poepoe

Banned
PMN1 said:
I suspect there just was not the market although it would be interesting to find out if there were any studies at converting the Brabazon and Constellation to high density seating, though i'd not be too keen on crossing the Atlantic at piston or turboprop speeds in high density seating.
Click to expand...

There is a different mentality to air travel in the 1940-60s than currently - in a lot of ways. One of the problems with the Brabazon was that it wasn't initially built to carry alot of passengers sandwiched like sardines. I think high density seating develops because of deregulation and probably the earlier OPEC oil embargo - if not just to rising fuel prices and airport fees in general.

The Constellations were retired since they had reached the end of the line in that Lockheed's customers wanted a new look.
 

freodhoric

CDurham said:
The main problems were that it was obsolete by war's end. For starters it was made mainly out of wood... even Amelia Earhart's plane was made out of metal for strength... in the 1930's. In addition, it was a flying boat, it couldn't land on a runway which makes it a poor choice for a transport as it was invisioned to be.
Click to expand...

I guess that being made of wood is why the deHavilland Mosquito was such a failure. Totally obsolete, too slow, not good for much of anything.

Sarcasm aside, wood is lighter than metal, so is sometimes a superior building material. The Mosquito is a good example, Marcos built all-wood racing cars through till the late 60s, and Morgan still uses aluminum over ash bodies. Wood is still an extremely popular material for building boats, which kinda makes sense for the H-4 as it was a flying boat.


Maybe the H-4 could find a post-war niche doing trans-Pacific passenger service.

@Canadian Goose - A pilot has told me that landing on water is more difficult than landing on a runway, something about currents and there may have another reason or two why.
 

Roberto

Could the Goose's success inspire newer plane designs? I'm not sure how influential the 'bigger is better' mindset was in post-war America, though.
 

CanadianGoose

Banned
white crowe said:
Well that obviously depends on where you are in the world.
Click to expand...
Let's take a look at list of Most Populous Urban Agglomerations (http://geography.about.com/od/urbaneconomicgeography/a/agglomerations2.htm)
How many of them are farther than 20 miles from sea/big river/big lake? I guess 3 out of 35 (Lima, Bogota, Tehran), but even for them construction of the artificial lagoon isn't beyond reach.

David S Poepoe said:
I actually think that flying boats could still have been successful at least thru the 1980s in way out places like Micronesia and Southeast Asia sort of island hopping carrying cargo and passengers. The only problem being the overhead in running the planes.
Click to expand...
Jet engine presents unique set of problems in conjunction with flying boats, although Beriev's A-40 proves those can be dealt with. It's just that niche market does not justify R&D investments.

And let me repeat myself, flying boat suck at high speed. That was the main reason of their decline.
 

David S Poepoe

Banned
CanadianGoose said:
Jet engine presents unique set of problems in conjunction with flying boats, although Beriev's A-40 proves those can be dealt with. It's just that niche market does not justify R&D investments.

And let me repeat myself, flying boat suck at high speed. That was the main reason of their decline.
Click to expand...

Why don't you repeat yourself again, I wasn't listening the second time either.

I recognize that flying boats eventually will be eclipsed, but there are niche markets that they can find perhaps an added 5-10 years - most likely not exceeding the 1960s. Tho I do have a Popular Mechanics magazine from the 1970s with the cover story of jet powered flying boats.

However, the Hercules would have been of some use during the Second World War, particularly in the Pacific Theater for which it was primarily developed. One could imagine if the Japanese actually wielded their submarine force better - and Hughes and Kaiser built faster - that the flying boats would have been used to bring up supplies (a trickle, but faster than ship) during the island hopping campaign. It wouldn't be landing in any front line areas tho.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top