The Spirit of Salamis- A Short Allied Victory in Crete TL
- Thread starter phil03
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But its not described to be a torpedo and Fiji would have to get to close in the face of Littorio's secondaries and escorts to do a torpedo run. And thing is... even if Littorio manages to run away the result of the battle is still the same.
Maybe Littorio's secondaries could have been damaged in her previous duel with Valiant since according the the post:
Littorio's escorts could have been heavily engaged by British destroyers allowing for a successful torpedo run by Fiji.
Littorio's escorts could have been heavily engaged by British destroyers allowing for a successful torpedo run by Fiji.
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SwampTiger
Banned
Sorry. I note Roma is still mentioned in the Naval Battle of Suda. What was Andrea Doria doing?
ITYM Fiji and Calcutta
So the Regia Marina has sunk a British battleship in a surface action. That's a very considerable achievement.
Engine room hits don't produce secondary explosions. And I rather doubt that a 6" shell could penetrate Littorio's armor, even at point-blank range.
This overstating the situation at sea TBH. In a reasonable amount of time the Regia Marina will once more have three battleships (I don't see why the reparation on the Vittorio Veneto should take longer then OTL) and it can still count on several cruisers as well as a good amount of destroyers. Suda Bay was a significant blow but not a knock out one.
As to the larger question, my first intent was to discuss the different aftermath of the battle and call it a day but it did gather more interests then I tought it would so I'll probably keep going for sometime. It would be fairly Crete centric, with the level of details given to operations elsewhere depending on their military and political importance from that standpoint, as a comprehensive and reasonably detailed TL on WWII is obviously a rather massive undertaking.
My train of tought was that part of the damage caused by the Valiant was to the part of the Littorio, causing its citadel to be far weaker then it had been at the beginning of the day. That being said, I do acknowledge equipment minutia is probably the aspect of WWII that I am the least familiar with so I do welcome constructive criticisms in that regard.Littorio being killed by Barham after being damaged by Valiant is entirely possible. Fiji doing it in the way described with a mere 6in shell going to an engine room and blowing the ship up on the other hand is completely impossible. The Littorios were extensively armoured... against 15 and 16in guns. Against one of the Colonies like Fiji? The 6in could penetrate at literally point blank 7.4in of Italian Terni armour. Littorio had 280mm plus an outer layer of 70mm in the citadel and 130mm outside it. In other words the citadel, where the engines were would be completely invulnerable to a Fiji's guns and even the non vital areas would need a Fiji to get within 4,000 yards. Even if somehow a lucky hit got into the engines its not likely to cause that kind of explosion.
If I gather correctly your suggestion would be to have the Barham do it instead, in a less spectacular fashion?
Thank you, it should be fixed now and it was engaged in some fighting of its own, its simply that it proved inconclusive and unconsequential enough that it wasn't mentionned in what is, ITTL, a fairly brief overall overview of the battle. Appart from the failed air attack on it the same applies to the Warspite on the allied side.
Yep. Suda Bay was, by all accounts, a clear British victory but it did have a significant and it was not, by any means, a decisive victory. Mind you, Britain's overall situation in the Med sea is, indeed, far better then in OTL, or will be soon, but that's as much (or even more) because it avoided the looses suffering during Crete's evacuation in OTL then because of the Battle of Suda Bay. Also, thank you for catching the issue with the names of the Fiji and Calcutta.
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Not sure if you did mention it - but one of the issues impacting the Greek forces on the Island was the lack of MMGs and LMG (something in the region of 50 odd weapons) , the somewhat eclectic collection of rifles in differing calibres and the lack of ammo for said weapons being in non 'British' Propriety ammo meaning that many of the Greek riflemen had only 20-50 rounds each 'on the entire island' and could not be resupplied by the British.
So this prevented any realistic training before the battle and then during the battle seriously degraded their ability to fight as well as they might have done.
Perhaps have stocks of captured Italian weapons (rifles and machine guns as well as other heavier weapons) captured during Compass along with ammunition supplied to the Greek forces allowing for training to be conducted and the ability to fight more effectively.
While many of the Italian rifles and machine guns left a lot to be desired compared to their peers of the day it was better than a lot of the kit the Greeks were operating on Crete at the time.
So this prevented any realistic training before the battle and then during the battle seriously degraded their ability to fight as well as they might have done.
Perhaps have stocks of captured Italian weapons (rifles and machine guns as well as other heavier weapons) captured during Compass along with ammunition supplied to the Greek forces allowing for training to be conducted and the ability to fight more effectively.
While many of the Italian rifles and machine guns left a lot to be desired compared to their peers of the day it was better than a lot of the kit the Greeks were operating on Crete at the time.
The Italian Rifles are fine.
The Italian Machine guns, now... Those are only fit to be issued as a punishment.
The Italian Machine guns, now... Those are only fit to be issued as a punishment.
Losing the Valiant will hurt since she's one of the 3 modernized QEs and one the two with decent DP armaments at that.
Without revealing too much this is definitely something that has been discussed in the thread I linked to over the prologue and an idea I am strongly considering exploring further.
The Greeks, and more broadly the allies, saving Greece during the battle in that regard was that the sector were the Greeks played the most important role was Heraklion. As the Germans used less ressources there then around Maleme and Rethymon, and that it was the most incompetently lead german assault on airfields aniway, the defenders were able to overcome that disadvantage.
Still, it did put them in hot waters from time to time as it was, for example, one of the reasons the situation grew so critical at the crossroad on May 25.
Indeed, there is no denying that. The Italians are even worst off, however, as I would argue loosing the Littorio was even more bitter blow for the Regia Marina then the sinking of the Valiant was for the Med Fleet and they also lost the Caio Dulio.
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A few resources on Italian weapons that might have ended up in the bag during Compass along with their ammo in large numbers and 'might' with some better organisation have ended up in the hands of our Greek Armed forces on Crete allowing them to perform training and perform much better in combat.
Rifle - Cacarno - generally in 6.5×52 but its confusing as the Italians from 1938 changed calibre but production had not really started approaching the needs of the Italian armed forces so most rifles I suspect where still in 6.5×52.
Considered to be a good rifle and for extra points in my world was lighter than most service rifles.
Famously one was used to assassinate JFK (fairy tale conspiracy theory's which are not entertained on this forum not withstanding).
It used a 6 round 'enbloc' clip like the 8 round clip used in the M1 Garand.
Light machine gun - Fucile Mitragliatore Breda modello 30 - as LMGs go this was one of the worst, an act of treason against the Italian peoples IMO. I have nothing good to say about it. Unreliable poor performing junk. But better than nothing and as each Italian Infantry Squad in 1940 had 1 should be plenty kicking about after Op Compass to equip the Greeks. Also came in both calibres but I suspect that the majority were still in 6.5 x 52.
Medium Machine gun - Breda M37 - a better weapon than the Mod 30 LMG but still much worse than its peers - equipping Italian units at Company and battalion level so probably available in large numbers post Compass. Fed from 20 round clips in 8 x 59mm RB Breda.
Light mortar - Brixia Model 35 - a fairly decent 45mm weapon compared to its peers that fired a 1 pound shell at a potentially high ROF. The only critique being the poor fragmentation of the small shells compared to other light mortars. Otherwise well regarded.
SMG - the MAB 38 was arguably one of if not the the best SMG of the war but any that were captured in Op Compass are unlikely to the point of never going to end up being sent to the Greeks as they were much admired by the British and commonwealth soldiers who captured them who at the time would have had a handful of M1928 Thompon's. So out of scope as all would end up in the hands of the British and commonwealth soldiers. Greek soldier however may still have some having captured them from Italian forces in Greece. Fired 9mm x 19 para so ammo could also have been supplied by the British from captured Italian stocks.
Aside from artillery an amount of captured infantry equipment had already been shipped to Greece or captured in Albania before April 41. Specifically:
Machine guns: 819 total from Albania and North Africa (311 Breda M37, 245 Fiat M35, the rest Fiat-Revelli M14)
LMG: 2300 Breda M30 total from Albania and North Africa. The Greeks rebuilt 1993 of them to use the Greek 6.5x54 instead of the Italian round.
Rifles: 12700 Mannlicher-Carcano from Albania and 8000 from North Africa
That's not covering what was used on the spot of course and never left the units of the front. For mortars for example the official history just mentions that "the army needs were covered by Italian spoils" and that the war material command in Athens had received from Albania and redistributed 204,150 45mm rounds aside from what was used on the spot...
Unfortunately very little of it and the ammo ended up in Crete - interesting numbers though thanks
Possibly a 15" shell had ripped away the armor in that area, but did not penetrate far enough, but does allow a salvo of 6" shells to penetrate into the engine room, perhaps blowing out the shaft seals, leading to fatal power loss and flooding! Perhaps drade losing Barham for Valiant?
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T'es ben francophone! Québecois? Acadien? FrancoXien (X={provinces})
You regularly confuse 't' and 'th', there's a few French spellings, and a couple of Faux Amis.
Still. It rarely impedes the story, and there's no way I could write as well in French, so....
Acadien (tough now living in Qc for professional reasons). One of my old TLs actually explore a world where the 1755 Deportation of the Acadians hasn't happened.
And thank you for the pointers. Part of the attraction of this particular hobby for me is that it allow me to continue to perfect my english writing abilities in a fairly forgiving environment so it is good to know where I still go wrong.
I'll try to keep an eye on those in the future
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Acadien (tough now living in Qc for professional reasons). One of my old TLs actually explore a world where the 1755 Deporatation of the Acadians hasn't happened.
through my great-grandmother (maternal grandmother's mother) I have a lot of Acadian in my background...come to find out I'm a distant cousin of a young lady who works for me as well as a good friend of mine...
how different would Louisiana be without the Cajuns? to somewhat paraphrase my father, "who would dat boy be what ruins those perfectly good redfish?"
through my great-grandmother (maternal grandmother's mother) I have a lot of Acadian in my background...come to find out I'm a distant cousin of a young lady who works for me as well as a good friend of mine...
how different would Louisiana be without the Cajuns? to somewhat paraphrase my father, "who would dat boy be what ruins those perfectly good redfish?"
At first the butterflies on the eastern front are gonna be fairly minor. Operation Mercury had been conceived to not affect Barbarossa in any shape or form no matter the result so the invasion of Russia is gonna go ahead and follow a course generaly similar to OTL. As the situation in the Med sea theater grows more and more distinct from OTL, however, there will be more important repercussions on the eastern front.
I hope to be able to return to that particular TL eventually but yes: appart from Atlantic Canada, Louisiana would have been the area more profoundly affected by the PODs. Without the Cajuns the area would have had a pretty small settler population when the Spaniards took it over. During the period of Spanish control over Louisiana there was some musing of encouraging trying to bring settlers from the Canari Islands. Nothing came of it in OTL but in this ATL, due to the need to build a demographic base for the colony, my train of toughts was that the scheme would have been put into motion, essentially creating a brand new, and completely ATL, cultural community in Louisiana, with all the butterflies coming with it.Acadien (tough now living in Qc for professional reasons). One of my old TLs actually explore a world where the 1755 Deporatation of the Acadians hasn't happened.
through my great-grandmother (maternal grandmother's mother) I have a lot of Acadian in my background...come to find out I'm a distant cousin of a young lady who works for me as well as a good friend of mine...
how different would Louisiana be without the Cajuns? to somewhat paraphrase my father, "who would dat boy be what ruins those perfectly good redfish?"