The Spanish Empire partitioned (option 2)

WI Spain and its possessions had been partitioned according to the 2nd treaty and the War of the Spanish Succession had been avoided? This is what things were supposed to go like:

1) The French were to receive Naples and Sicily. They would also get Lorraine, in exchange for which duke Leopold was to receive Milan.

2) The Spanish throne was to go to the Austrian archduke Charles. Spain was to keep its colonies and, from its European possessions, the Southern Netherlands and Sardinia.

3 consequences I can think of:

1) The absence of a war will make the Austrians need the help of Brandenburg-Prussia a lot less, so elector Frederick III will not be recognized as King in Prussia (as Frederick I, which is how he would go down in history in OTL).

2) If the Gonzaga line still dies out, Modena and Montferrat will pass to the duke of Lorraine, who in TTL already controls Milan. In OTL Charles IV, the last Gonzaga duke, allied with France and lost his possessions; at his death Mantua passed to Austria and Montferrat to Savoy, while the duke of Lorraine received Teschen as compensation for not getting the Gonzaga duchies.

3) At this point the emperor's son Leopold Joseph had been conceived but had yet to be born. In OTL the boy died in 1701 and his father 10 years later (of smallpox), which would make Archduke Charles the leader of the House of Habsburg. Butterflies make it very unlikely that he would still rise to that position, but if he dies then the Habsburgs would reunite Spain with Austria and bring back the empire of Charles V.

Partition.jpg
 
Last edited:
Oops, my mistake. I always get the 2 mixed up because they both became associated with the Habsburgs in the 18th century (though in very different ways). I'll change it here and in the other thread.

And the fact that both are neighbours and start with "M" doesn't help too...:D
 
And the fact that both are neighbours and start with "M" doesn't help too...:D

I can mostly keep the north Italian families straight: Medici in Tuscany, Farnese in Parma, Este in Modena and (before they lost it) Ferrara, Gonzaga in Mantua and Montferrat. But if I go too long without having to think about them I forget.

Anyway, what effect could this have on the Great Northern War? It could be interesting if butterflies lead to Peter the Great being captured or killed when the siege of Narva is broken.
 
OK, since there seems to be little to no feedback on the Partition Treaties threads I will attempt the beginning of a TL for this one. But this isn't really a TL, so instead of waiting for a next "installment" I'd prefer you guys to give me some ideas of your own.

1700:

The 2nd Partition Treaty is implemented despite Austrian opposition. The emperor eventually agrees when William III hints that a 3rd Partition Treaty could leave him with less. Faced with Europe's determination, Spanish opposition amounts to nothing.

Francis Rakoczi is arrested by the Austrians after his secret correspondence with the French is discovered and executed. (In OTL he managed to escape and would later lead a Hungarian rebellion against Austria.)

The Swedes break the siege of Narva and Peter the Great is killed in the ensuing chaos in the Russian camp. (In OTL he had left before the battle.) His son is crowned tsar as Alexis II, with Boris Galitzine as regent. (I'm gonna need some help with the plausibility of this.) Charles XII then proceeds to invade Poland-Lithuania.

Some later developments: Archduke Leopold Joseph doesn't die in childhood and Charles IV of Mantua and Montferrat manages to produce an heir.

Ideas for later developments: WI the Ottomans take advantage of Russia's weakness and attack Azov? Could the Cossacks in the Hetmanate and Zaporozhia break free of Russian domination? What would Louis XIV, William III and Leopold I concentrate their energies on now?

Edit: And Frederick III of Brandenburg-Prussia isn't crowned King in Prussia.
 
Last edited:
Some later developments: Archduke Leopold Joseph doesn't die in childhood and Charles IV of Mantua and Montferrat manages to produce an heir.

Actually, you don't need to make Charles IV producing a heir (which I believe it was too late for him). You just could make the Emperor accepting his illegitimate son Giovanni (1671 - 1743) as heir of Mantua. Possibly Montferrat would still go to Savoy, but the Gonzagas keep Mantua.

Or, as OTL the Duke of Lorraine received Teschen in exchange for Montferrat, you could make him receiving Mantua instead (which would be nice, if Lorraine still is annexed by France, but the House of Lorraine survives in Northern Italy).
 
Actually, you don't need to make Charles IV producing a heir (which I believe it was too late for him).

It just seemed to me rather unlikely that he would still fail to produce a legitimate heir in TTL - he wasn't really that old.

Or, as OTL the Duke of Lorraine received Teschen in exchange for Montferrat, you could make him receiving Mantua instead (which would be nice, if Lorraine still is annexed by France, but the House of Lorraine survives in Northern Italy).

I thought he was supposed to inherit both duchies. Are you saying that he was only next in line in Montferrat? Who was next in line in Mantua then?
 
It just seemed to me rather unlikely that he would still fail to produce a legitimate heir in TTL - he wasn't really that old.

I believe the problem wasn't on him, since he did produce some illegitimate heirs. Probably his two wifes weren't fertile. You would need to make his second wife die, and choose a third one. But still he is going to die in 1708, and so his son would be too young. You would need some princess that the Emperor would accept to let her taking the regency until the young Duke is old enough to take the post.


I thought he was supposed to inherit both duchies. Are you saying that he was only next in line in Montferrat? Who was next in line in Mantua then?

Yes, only Montferrat could be inherited by women (that's the reason why he was the heir of it). If the Gonzaga male line dies out, Mantua would probably be annexed into the Habsburg possessions (and so, maybe the Emperor could give Mantua to the Duke of Lorraine instead of Teschen).
 
I believe the problem wasn't on him, since he did produce some illegitimate heirs. Probably his two wifes weren't fertile. You would need to make his second wife die, and choose a third one. But still he is going to die in 1708, and so his son would be too young. You would need some princess that the Emperor would accept to let her taking the regency until the young Duke is old enough to take the post.

OK, then I'll have the Gonzaga line die out. But Charles IV would probably live a few extra years without all the stress the war must've caused him.

Yes, only Montferrat could be inherited by women (that's the reason why he was the heir of it). If the Gonzaga male line dies out, Mantua would probably be annexed into the Habsburg possessions (and so, maybe the Emperor could give Mantua to the Duke of Lorraine instead of Teschen).

Didn't he get Teschen in OTL as compensation for Montferrat? That won't be the case here. So Habsburg power in Italy is reduced to Mantua (their later inheritance of Tuscany being butterflied away). Ouch!

Anyway, things seem to go pretty bad for Savoy in TTL. They don't get either Sicily or Sardinia, they don't get Montferrat or part of the Duchy of Milan, they don't even get those territories on the French border (Exilles and Chateau Dauphin). They're lucky not having lost anything, since it seems that one of the ideas being thrown around when the 2nd Partition Treaty was negotiated was that if the duke of Lorraine wouldn't go through with the exchange then France would get something else rather than Lorraine, such as the region of Savoy (but not the whole duchy).

What do you think about developments in Russia? Is it realistic to make Alexis tsar and Galitzine regent? I'll admit I don't understant much about all the power struggles that took place there between the ascension of Peter the Great and that of Catherine the Great.
 
OK, then I'll have the Gonzaga line die out. But Charles IV would probably live a few extra years without all the stress the war must've caused him.

If the Medici male line still dies out, would the powers allow Tuscany to be inherited through a female line? If they do so, then the next in line as heir of Tuscany would be the Farnese of Parma. You could have both Duchies united.
 

Rockingham

Banned
OK, since there seems to be little to no feedback on the Partition Treaties threads I will attempt the beginning of a TL for this one. But this isn't really a TL, so instead of waiting for a next "installment" I'd prefer you guys to give me some ideas of your own.

1700:

The 2nd Partition Treaty is implemented despite Austrian opposition. The emperor eventually agrees when William III hints that a 3rd Partition Treaty could leave him with less. Faced with Europe's determination, Spanish opposition amounts to nothing.

Francis Rakoczi is arrested by the Austrians after his secret correspondence with the French is discovered and executed. (In OTL he managed to escape and would later lead a Hungarian rebellion against Austria.)

The Swedes break the siege of Narva and Peter the Great is killed in the ensuing chaos in the Russian camp. (In OTL he had left before the battle.) His son is crowned tsar as Alexis II, with Boris Galitzine as regent. (I'm gonna need some help with the plausibility of this.) Charles XII then proceeds to invade Poland-Lithuania.

Some later developments: Archduke Leopold Joseph doesn't die in childhood and Charles IV of Mantua and Montferrat manages to produce an heir.

Ideas for later developments: WI the Ottomans take advantage of Russia's weakness and attack Azov? Could the Cossacks in the Hetmanate and Zaporozhia break free of Russian domination? What would Louis XIV, William III and Leopold I concentrate their energies on now?

Edit: And Frederick III of Brandenburg-Prussia isn't crowned King in Prussia.
Well, the thing is all of these partition threads deserve their own TL:D.....

I don't thin kanyone has ever done one on them though....
 
Top