The Spanish Armada is victorious: Whom did the children of James I/VI and Infanta Isabella Clara Eugenia of Spain marry?

[The Gybson Boy]

This is a scenario I've been thinking about for a while:
The Spanish Armada was victorious in 1588, the Armada came by surprise against the English fleet, sailing near Cornwall, with the help of a great storm, which seriously damaged some English ships before the battle. After the English fleet was destroyed, the Spanish army landed near Dover. Here, an English garrison fought unsuccessfully against Spanish men, while Spanish ships bombarded and occupied the city, to gain its port as an operational centre.
The army marched furiously towards London, while the false queen fled cowardly to the north, while the English militia tried to resist and defend the city, in a few months the entire southwest of England was conquered by the Spanish.
After two long months of fighting, the Spanish marched north and besieged the city of York, where the false Queen Elizabeth found herself trapped within the city. After a short siege, the city fell and the army gathered there was defeated relatively easily, Queen Elizabeth herself was captured.
Elizabeth would be tried and publicly humiliated in London, in a trial presided over by Phillip II himself, she was convicted of several crimes and executed in a public square with the same ax that the executioner had used to execute Queen Mary of Scots two years earlier.
After the siege of York, England was ruled directly by Philip II. A standing army of 50,000 men remained in England enforcing religion. The nobility in particular were severely punished, as many lands confiscated from monasteries and the Catholic Church were granted to them. It wasn't long before many of them lost their titles and their heads. The Protestant religion was banned across England and many churches were restored to their original appearance.
The Spanish occupation lasted about a year and a half, during this period Phillip II was negotiating with King James VI of Scotland, the King of Scots was next in line of succession to the English throne, being the only son of the late Queen Mary, Phillip II intended to offer the throne of England to James, however the throne would only be his through a series of conditions that would be officially stipulated in the Treaty of Holyrood of September 30, 1590:

• King James VI of Scotland should convert to Catholicism
• King James VI agreed to marry Infanta Isabella Clara Eugenia, eldest daughter of King Phillip II
• King James VI agreed to allow Spanish troops to remain in England, and in England only, for a period of not less than five years.
• King James VI agreed in allowing Jesuits unrestricted entry into Great Britain
• King James VI agreed never again to let a false religion penetrate England's holiest shores

In the meantime, James VI was crowned as King James I of England at Christmas 1590, in this same ceremony he married Princess Isabella Eugenia of Spain, and this is where we return to the main topic of this Forum

King James I of England and VI of Scotland (June 1566-) and Infanta Isabella Clara Eugenia of Spain (August 1566-)
1.Princess Mary of England and Scotland (November 1591-)
2.Henry Phillip, Prince of Wales and Duke of Rothesay (December 1592-)
3.Princess Katherine of England and Scotland (September 1594-)
4.Charles, Duke of York and Albany (July 1596-)
5.Robert, Duke of Gloucester and Kintyre (July 1596-)
6.James, Duke of Clarence and Ross (February 1598)
7.Princess Margaret of England and Scotland (October 1600)
8.Phillip, Duke of Lancaster and Earl of Mar (January 1602)
9.Princess Sophia of England and Scotland (May 1604)
10.Princess Cecily of England and Scotland (March 1607)
Assuming all the children of James VI and Isabella Clara Eugenia are lucky and survive into adulthood what are the most viable marriage options for them?

 

[Rattenfänger von Memphis]

King James VI of Scotland should convert to Catholicism

Let me be the first to say it…. “London is worth a Mass.”

In the thread title, you asked only about the sons so I am only focusing on them. In the early 17th Century, three Catholic monarchs in Europe each had two daughters who might have married these English Catholic princes : King Henry IV of France, King Philip III of Spain and the Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand II.

(1) Philip III’s daughter, Anne of Austria (born 1601) could have married Prince of Wales Henry Phillip (born 1592) instead of her marrying OTL King Louis XIII of France.

(2) and (3) The twin princes Charles and Robert (born 1596): Prince Robert could have married King Philip III’s daughter Maria Anna (born 1606) while Prince Charles could have married Henry IV’s daughter Henrietta Maria (born 1609) instead of her marrying OTL King Charles I of England and Scotland

(4) Prince James ( born 1598) could marry Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand II’s daughter Archduchess Maria Anna (born 1610)

(5) Prince Phillip (born 1602) could marry Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand’s daughter Archduchess Cecilia Renata (born 1611)

This scenario leaves in play Henry IV’s daughter Princess Elisabeth (born 1602) who in OTL married King Philip IV of Spain. Italian marriages, German Catholic marriages and Polish marriages might also be considered but those were lesser houses and King James I/VI would probably prefer marriage alliances with the most powerful Catholic states if he could get them.

 

[The Gybson Boy]

In the thread title, you asked only about the sons so I am only focusing on them.

I always forget that in English the word "Sons" is used exclusively for boys

 

[The Gybson Boy]

Let me be the first to say it…. “London is worth a Mass.”

This reminds me that if the Armada won in 1588 the War of the Three Henriques could have a different ending.
From Wikipedia:
"After the defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588, the king called the Estates-General in the midst of intrigue and plotting. Henry of Guise planned to assassinate the king and seize the throne, but the king struck first by having Guise killed by his guards, The Forty-Five.[7]"
Perhaps Guise could win and take the French throne for himself here.

 

[HortenseMancini]

1.Princess Isabella of England and Scotland (November 1591-)
2.Henry Phillip, Prince of Wales and Duke of Rothesay (December 1592-)
3.Princess Mary of England and Scotland (September 1594-)
4.Charles, Duke of York and Albany (July 1596-)
5.Robert, Duke of Gloucester and Kintyre (July 1596-)
6.James, Duke of Clarence and Ross (February 1598)
7.Princess Sophia of England and Scotland (October 1600)
8.Phillip, Duke of Lancaster and Earl of Mar (January 1602)
9.Princess Margaret of England and Scotland (May 1604)
10.Princess Charlotte of England and Scotland (March 1607)

Some notes on names: Lady Isabella would almost certainly be given the more English name Elizabeth, and Lady Sophia is more likely to be Lady Katherine after Isabella Clara’s sister and maternal grandmother. Also I would maybe go with Anne rather than Charlotte as Charlotte was really not a name used in English speaking lands at this time.

 

[HortenseMancini]

Let me be the first to say it…. “London is worth a Mass.”

In the thread title, you asked only about the sons so I am only focusing on them. In the early 17th Century, three Catholic monarchs in Europe each had two daughters who might have married these English Catholic princes : King Henry IV of France, King Philip III of Spain and the Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand II.

(1) Philip III’s daughter, Anne of Austria (born 1601) could have married Prince of Wales Henry Phillip (born 1592) instead of her marrying OTL King Louis XIII of France.

(2) and (3) The twin princes Charles and Robert (born 1596): Prince Robert could have married King Philip III’s daughter Maria Anna (born 1606) while Prince Charles could have married Henry IV’s daughter Henrietta Maria (born 1609) instead of her marrying OTL King Charles I of England and Scotland

(4) Prince James ( born 1598) could marry Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand II’s daughter Archduchess Maria Anna (born 1610)

(5) Prince Phillip (born 1602) could marry Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand’s daughter Archduchess Cecilia Renata (born 1611)

This scenario leaves in play Henry IV’s daughter Princess Elisabeth (born 1602) who in OTL married King Philip IV of Spain. Italian marriages, German Catholic marriages and Polish marriages might also be considered but those were lesser houses and King James I/VI would probably prefer marriage alliances with the most powerful Catholic states if he could get them.

Anna of Austria seems rather young for Henry Philip and I find it extremely unlikely that James and Isabella’s younger sons would be considered suitable for an archduchess, Infanta, or fille de France. Those girls are only marrying sovereign rulers, not younger sons.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

1.Princess Isabella of England and Scotland (November 1591-)
2.Henry Phillip, Prince of Wales and Duke of Rothesay (December 1592-)
3.Princess Mary of England and Scotland (September 1594-)
4.Charles, Duke of York and Albany (July 1596-)
5.Robert, Duke of Gloucester and Kintyre (July 1596-)
6.James, Duke of Clarence and Ross (February 1598)
7.Princess Sophia of England and Scotland (October 1600)
8.Phillip, Duke of Lancaster and Earl of Mar (January 1602)
9.Princess Margaret of England and Scotland (May 1604)
10.Princess Charlotte of England and Scotland (March 1607)
Assuming all the children of James VI and Isabella Clara Eugenia are lucky and survive into adulthood what are the most viable marriage options for them?

I'd consider that very lucky indeed. Especially since Isabel Clara Eugenia was known to have "menstrual problems" her whole life (so I'd cut that list of potential kids in half, just for that; then perhaps half again, since neither Isabel nor James had the best luck with kids (blaming this on the doctors rather than genetics) OTL). Then add James' own bisexual predilections in and I'd say the number is less than ten.

To @Rattenfänger von Memphis ' suggestion, the answer is a round no. Felipe III despised his half-sister's offspring the prince of Piemonte OTL, so it's likely that he'd behave similarly towards Isabel's. The minute Felipe II is dead in 1598, so is the Spanish alliance. Nothing Isabel does is going to breathe life back into it. Good news is that it'd be from the Spanish side that the alliance fractures and England's clear of blame.

The eldest daughter likely gets paired with a prospective dauphin (1588 might be too soon to prevent Henri III's assassination but there's a possibility that Henri IV can still be murdered (as nearly happened in 1593) and that Henri, Prince de Condé winds up as king of France). Just to tie up the loose ends between the Valois and the Bourbons (like Brittany).

The prince of Wales would likely be paired with a French match (either as part of a double union with his sister - this had been on the cards since the reign of Mary I: a son and daughter of Mary Tudor and Felipe II to marry a son and daughter of Mary, QoS and François II - or by himself) or a potential Savoyard match (as a Spanish proxy).

If no French match is available (either because Henri IV's alive - he never liked James VI, always referring to him as "Monsieur David [Rizzio]'s boy" - or because there isn't a dauphin available), then I suspect we'd see pairings with second tier royals: Bavaria (has nobody), Lorraine (has nobody), Savoy (first cousins), Austria (only cousins to the emperor are available).

However, a strong point is to question how Catholic James would go. Isabel Clara Eugenia was particularly devoted to the Third Order of Saint Francis/Poor Clares OTL, and she might still be here, but James could simply be a lukewarm Catholic. He might raise the prince of Wales to be Catholic, but there's no guarantee he'd stick to it for his younger kids or even that the boy would be raised especially Catholic (a la Ferdinand II/Maximilian III in Austria). Or even that he would oblige his kids to marry Catholic (as what Felipe II doubtless required in the marriage contract). Especially since by the time the oldest one reaches marriageable age, relations with Spain are likely at an all time low, so James might easily decide "to Hell with it".

An interesting question is also what happens to the Spanish Netherlands and the Dutch Republic's Twelve Year Truce (a product of Albert and Isabella's diplomacy OTL) here? Do they just keep on killing one another?

 

[The Gybson Boy]

Some notes on names: Lady Isabella would almost certainly be given the more English name Elizabeth.

I don't think the name Elizabeth would be used in the English royal family for at least a couple of generations, remember that James only got his throne because Phillip II deposed Queen Elizabeth, who would be widely seen as a "psychotic tyrant", if James calling his eldest daughter that would be seen as an insult by the Spanish (who are still occupying England when Lady Isabella is born).
I think the mainland version Isabella will do at this time

 

[The Gybson Boy]

An interesting question is also what happens to the Spanish Netherlands and the Dutch Republic's Twelve Year Truce (a product of Albert and Isabella's diplomacy OTL) here? Do they just keep on killing one another?

Considering most of the navy was still fine, and they have a foothold in England with 50,000 troops stationed for the next five years, it's quite possible that they managed to suppress the Dutch revolt (even if only temporarily)

 

[Cymraeg]

This is a scenario I've been thinking about for a while:
The Spanish Armada was victorious in 1588, the Armada came by surprise against the English fleet, sailing near Cornwall, with the help of a great storm, which seriously damaged some English ships before the battle. After the English fleet was destroyed, the Spanish army landed near Bristol. Here, an English garrison fought unsuccessfully against Spanish men, while Spanish ships bombarded and occupied Clevedon, to gain its port as an operational centre.
The army marched furiously towards London, while the false queen fled cowardly to the north, while the English militia tried to resist and defend the city, in a few months the entire southwest of England was conquered by the Spanish.
After two long months of fighting, the Spanish marched north and besieged the city of York, where the false Queen Elizabeth found herself trapped within the city. After a short siege, the city fell and the army gathered there was defeated relatively easily, Queen Elizabeth herself was captured.
Elizabeth would be tried and publicly humiliated in London, in a trial presided over by Phillip II himself, she was convicted of several crimes and executed in a public square with the same ax that the executioner had used to execute Queen Mary of Scots two years earlier.
After the siege of York, England was ruled directly by Philip II. A standing army of 50,000 men remained in England enforcing religion. The nobility in particular were severely punished, as many lands confiscated from monasteries and the Catholic Church were granted to them. It wasn't long before many of them lost their titles and their heads. The Protestant religion was banned across England and many churches were restored to their original appearance.
The Spanish occupation lasted about a year and a half, during this period Phillip II was negotiating with King James VI of Scotland, the King of Scots was next in line of succession to the English throne, being the only son of the late Queen Mary, Phillip II intended to offer the throne of England to James, however the throne would only be his through a series of conditions that would be officially stipulated in the Treaty of Holyrood of September 30, 1590:

• King James VI of Scotland should convert to Catholicism
• King James VI agreed to marry Infanta Isabella Clara Eugenia, eldest daughter of King Phillip II
• King James VI agreed to allow Spanish troops to remain in England, and in England only, for a period of not less than five years.
• King James VI agreed in allowing Jesuits unrestricted entry into Great Britain
• King James VI agreed never again to let a false religion penetrate England's holiest shores

In the meantime, James VI was crowned as King James I of England at Christmas 1590, in this same ceremony he married Princess Isabella Eugenia of Spain, and this is where we return to the main topic of this Forum

King James I of England and VI of Scotland (June 1566-) and Infanta Isabella Clara Eugenia of Spain (August 1566-)
1.Princess Isabella of England and Scotland (November 1591-)
2.Henry Phillip, Prince of Wales and Duke of Rothesay (December 1592-)
3.Princess Mary of England and Scotland (September 1594-)
4.Charles, Duke of York and Albany (July 1596-)
5.Robert, Duke of Gloucester and Kintyre (July 1596-)
6.James, Duke of Clarence and Ross (February 1598)
7.Princess Katherine of England and Scotland (October 1600)
8.Phillip, Duke of Lancaster and Earl of Mar (January 1602)
9.Princess Margaret of England and Scotland (May 1604)
10.Princess Sophia of England and Scotland (March 1607)
Assuming all the children of James VI and Isabella Clara Eugenia are lucky and survive into adulthood what are the most viable marriage options for them?

Erm, a quick question: what Spanish Army was landed again? Because the plan was always sail past the South Coast of England, get to the Southern Netherlands, embark the Duke of Parma's army onto the barges that Parma had assembled, escort the barges across, protecting the barges & army as they went and fending off the English fleet. Medina Sidonia didn't have much of an army to land near Bristol or anywhere else. And IIRC there was never any plan to sail up the Bristol Channel, that would have bottled them up completely.

 

[The Gybson Boy]

Erm, a quick question: what Spanish Army was landed again? Because the plan was always sail past the South Coast of England, get to the Southern Netherlands, embark the Duke of Parma's army onto the barges that Parma had assembled, escort the barges across, protecting the barges & army as they went and fending off the English fleet. Medina Sidonia didn't have much of an army to land near Bristol or anywhere else. And IIRC there was never any plan to sail up the Bristol Channel, that would have bottled them up completely.

I'll replace Bristol with Dover then

 

[HortenseMancini]

I don't think the name Elizabeth would be used in the English royal family for at least a couple of generations, remember that James only got his throne because Phillip II deposed Queen Elizabeth, who would be widely seen as a "psychotic tyrant", if James calling his eldest daughter that would be seen as an insult by the Spanish (who are still occupying England when Lady Isabella is born).
I think the mainland version Isabella will do at this time

Then go with Margaret or Mary - James is already going to have an awkward enough time as a Scotsman thrust onto the throne by the Spanish without people having to deal with him calling his oldest daughter such a ‘foreign’ name

 

[ordinarylittleme]

I think the mainland version Isabella will do at this time

Just don't have Isabella/Elizabeth at all then. There are other names - Margaret, Mary, Cecily, Philippa...

 

[Santo Nombre]

Phillip II intended to offer the throne of England to James, however the throne would only be his through a series of conditions that would be officially stipulated in the Treaty of Holyrood of September 30, 1590

One of the conditions could be to break free Ireland?
After all the Desmond rebellions (with Papal support!) were just finished and the Spaniards will found a 18 y.o. James FitzGerald captive on the Tower of London, sick and manipulable. Is it possible to return to him their confiscated lands in Munster and make him King of Ireland? Or any other Irish noble?
This way you may have another catholic royal family in Europe that, even if non-important, is very strategic for England-Scotland.

 

[VVD0D95]

One of the conditions could be to break free Ireland?
After all the Desmond rebellions (with Papal support!) were just finished and the Spaniards will found a 18 y.o. James FitzGerald captive on the Tower of London, sick and manipulable. Is it possible to return to him their confiscated lands in Munster and make him King of Ireland? Or any other Irish noble?
This way you may have another catholic royal family in Europe that, even if non-important, is very strategic for England-Scotland.

That’ll turn James I into a pariah in England.

 

[The Gybson Boy]

Then go with Margaret or Mary - James is already going to have an awkward enough time as a Scotsman thrust onto the throne by the Spanish without people having to deal with him calling his oldest daughter such a ‘foreign’ name

I'll replace Isabella then, since it's such a troublesome name

 

[The Gybson Boy]

One of the conditions could be to break free Ireland?
After all the Desmond rebellions (with Papal support!) were just finished and the Spaniards will found a 18 y.o. James FitzGerald captive on the Tower of London, sick and manipulable. Is it possible to return to him their confiscated lands in Munster and make him King of Ireland? Or any other Irish noble?
This way you may have another catholic royal family in Europe that, even if non-important, is very strategic for England-Scotland.

which James Fitzgerald? do you have the wikipedia link or something?

 

[Santo Nombre]

which James Fitzgerald? do you have the wikipedia link or something?

James FitzGerald, 1st Earl of Desmond - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Santo Nombre]

That’ll turn James I into a pariah in England.

He just converts to Christianity and accepts Spanish and jesuits in his territories, so he is already a pariah, but only for the anglicans and the other protestants. The catholics will be pleased. Also, the occupation of lands and the plantations in Ireland was a project that benefited the protestanst, so it will be logical not only to stop it, but to reverse it.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

He just converts to Christianity

He was already Christian