How would modern history be shaped if the Soviets were the instigators of WW2? How much would history change if Fascism was the post WW2 boogeyman instead of communism?
The Soviet Union Starts WW2
- Thread starter Everdarklegion
- Start date
Any world where the Nazis are not considered the utter monsters they are can go into the dark corner of places that I hope the multiverse murdered violently. That said; Stalin was planning to invade Europe.
Yes, but Stalin knew that in 1939, the Soviet Union was incapable of launching a full scale invasion west. That is why he agreed to supplement Hitler's invasion of Poland.
What I'm asking is if Trotsky became leader of the Soviet Union, who believed that Russia had to fund communist revolutions all over the globe, instead of Stalin.
What I'm asking is if Trotsky became leader of the Soviet Union, who believed that Russia had to fund communist revolutions all over the globe, instead of Stalin.
Here is the point from where the answer comes: "To fund and support communist revolutions everywhere as a priority", which is what an internationalist like Trotsky would do, is not necessarily synonymous with "start a Second Great War without any ally by sending the Red Army to goose step from the Urals to the Atlantic, establishing Soviet socialist republics along the way". Even Trotsky knew that going full Red Alert was no longer possible after the Miracle at the Vistula, because the plan was based on the fact that the Red Army would connect with the revolutionary movements in Italy, Germany and Hungary, which would trigger a chain reaction that would lead to a Communist Europe. These movements, in the moment that the Soviets have recovered from the setback in Poland, and Trotsky is in power, they have long been dead and buried, so instead of being a snowball that generates an avalanche, it would be a snowball in the desert that melts. Even without Great Purge, a full scale invasion west is an excess destined to fail. But let's imagine that Trotsky pulls out a Hitler: Believing that the western democracies fear war so much that they will not do anything to protect Eastern Europe... then the worst nightmare of the U.S.S.R. is going to happen: The West will give a carte blanche and full support to the Nazis and Fascists to destroy the Bolsheviks once and for all. Like with Uncle Joe OTL, Uncle Benny and Uncle Adolf will be seen as freedom fighters at first: "If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons." as that anti-Bolshevik crusader named Winston Churchill said. Communism will be considered the greatest evil, everything that is wrong with fascist regimes will be hidden and justified, everything that smells like a socialist will be persecuted in Red scares, infamous theories that the fall of Nazism discredited, as for example, eugenics, will continue to be popular. The League of Nations is going to die without a successor. Regarding a possible cold war, the Third Reich is not stable enough to last in such a conflict, even with all the lebensraum they could want in Russia: the economy will implode, if the Reich is not destroyed first because Hitler decided to start the Third Great War by invading France (Alsace-Lorraine, Revenge and Colonies are as important as destroying Communism for Nazism). Italy will be the one that promotes Fascism for the world, but it has no resources to really compete with the U.S. Most likely, there is a short cold conflict by influence, followed by a pragmatic modus vivendi (Fascism is not as incompatible with American capitalist economic interests as communism is) until the passage of time, and the arrival at the White House of idealists/moralists ends the detente, with Italy and its Roman Pact finally going the way of OTL Spain. That being the End of History.
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Well, it can't start it by invading Germany, since it didn't border on Germany. As for joining Germany in a partition of Poland, that's what it did in OTL...
Of course one could theoretically see an ATL where the USSR attacks a Poland that has good relations with both the Western countries and Germany--and they all go to war with the USSR. But that would be way too reckless for Stalin to undertake.
Of course one could theoretically see an ATL where the USSR attacks a Poland that has good relations with both the Western countries and Germany--and they all go to war with the USSR. But that would be way too reckless for Stalin to undertake.
There's literally no evidence for this. Stalin was quite conservative in his foreign policy.
marathag
Banned
Oh it was on his list.
But it was after 'purge all the traitors, wreckers and spies' so that was going to take some time.
Weird thing was, the harder he had Beria search, the more enemies of the State were found. Traitors everywhere.
So after all that was done, it would have been 1960 or so.
BigBlueBox
Banned
We had a thread on this a month ago. Most posters including myself thought it was very unlikely.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-and-nazis-against-the-soviets-in-ww2.471625/
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-and-nazis-against-the-soviets-in-ww2.471625/
kernals12
Banned
There was a Twilight Zone episode about this.Nonsense, comrade. There are ALWAYS more Enemies of the People to find!
I saw that one and its message is correct IMO. Paranoid dictators will always find more enemies to eliminate. They can't, a paranoid will always find people who are against them. That is the nature of paranoia.
Garrison
Donor
He never thought that. The M-R Pact wasn't the result of trust, Stalin was hoping Germany and the Allies would fight a replay of 1914-18 that would leave them all exhausted. In June 1941 he was assuming that Hitler wouldn't be crazy enough to start a two front war and that the troops being massed on the border was sabre rattling to squeeze more economic concessions out of the USSR. There was certainly an element of wishful thinking in 1941 but trust never came into it.
Are there any (trustworthy ?) references to what he actually thought ? ... aside from clever hindsighteering assumptions and allegations ?
"'Stalin believed, Stalin thought. . .' As if anyone knew exactly what Stalin thought of the war!"--Molotov Remembers: Inside Kremlin Politics, p. 31. https://books.google.com/books?id=5f90AQAAQBAJ&pg=PA31
I’ve listened to a few talks on YouTube by Stalin biographer Stephen Kotkin and that’s where I’ve heard the most detailed explanation that Stalin legitimately expected the western powers to fight another world war amongst themselves that would leave them vulnerable to communist revolutions and red army invasion. It’s not that hard to imagine an ATL where Stalin makes some slightly different strategic decicisions that bring about that outcome.
My understanding is that the historical record has plenty of contemporary, detailed, first hand accounts of what Stalin said in meetings and letters written by him. We might not have journal entries that say “dear diary, today my grand scheme for the downfall of capitalists is...” but a working knowledge of Stalins ideology and strategy is graspable.
My understanding is that the historical record has plenty of contemporary, detailed, first hand accounts of what Stalin said in meetings and letters written by him. We might not have journal entries that say “dear diary, today my grand scheme for the downfall of capitalists is...” but a working knowledge of Stalins ideology and strategy is graspable.
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