This has always intrigued me; I've seen maps depicting the USSR in the Axis from 1939 to 1941. Though not formally in the Axis, it was in a nonagression pact and invaded several countries at the same time as Germany was fighting France and Britain.
The Soviet Union and the Axis, 1939-41
- Thread starter Snowstalker
- Start date
Sean Mulligan
Banned
Poland signed a non-aggression pact with Germany in 1934 and annexed parts of Czechoslovakia when the country was being conquered by Germany. Does that make Poland a German ally?
Tannhäuser
Banned
Yeah. And just because the Allies were afraid that the USSR was an Axis power doesn't mean it actually was. It did invade Poland, but that was opportunistic and somewhat justifiable (at least compared to Germany's blatant aggression), just as was Poland's invasion of Czechoslovakia.
The Axis can be seen as a group of powers dedicated to upsetting the status quo, in which case the Soviet Union does fit in, but it can also be seen as a group of nations whose ideologies were the antithesis of Communism. It's difficult to argue that the world's only Communist power was aligned with an "Anti-Comintern Pact" that was led by a nation whose leader had expressed his intention to annihilate or subjugate the Slavic peoples. The best one can do is argue opportunistic and temporary alignment of interests.
The Axis can be seen as a group of powers dedicated to upsetting the status quo, in which case the Soviet Union does fit in, but it can also be seen as a group of nations whose ideologies were the antithesis of Communism. It's difficult to argue that the world's only Communist power was aligned with an "Anti-Comintern Pact" that was led by a nation whose leader had expressed his intention to annihilate or subjugate the Slavic peoples. The best one can do is argue opportunistic and temporary alignment of interests.
Japhy
Banned
No because seizing lands from the Czechs was before the war, From the moment the Soviets sent troops into combat Poland, though their annexations, attacks, and logistical support for the Axis, up to the day that Barbarossa Started the USSR was propping up the Axis, just like the US was doing for Britain with our undeclared naval war and lend-lease in 1940-41.
Sean Mulligan
Banned
If the Soviets hadn't invaded Poland, likely all of Poland would have fallen under Nazi rule. How does preventing that and making it harder for the Nazis to successfully invade the Soviet Union equate to aiding the Axis?
The Soviets were opprotunistic dicks who made a deal with the Nazis to divide up Eastern Europe, sure. But that in no way makes them part of the Axis, any more than the 18th century Partitions of Poland mean that Prussia, Austria and Russia were all allies during that period.
(plus, I've played HoI, so I know the Soviets were Comintern the whole time, man
)
(plus, I've played HoI, so I know the Soviets were Comintern the whole time, man
)Same here, bro.(plus, I've played HoI, so I know the Soviets were Comintern the whole time, man
I would say they were a co-belligerent; but I wouldn't go so far as to call them an axis power. They were opportunistic, that's all.
Japhy
Banned
Because they helped the Nazi's conquor Poland, its that simple. And I know its hard for you to understand because you're always a massive Soviet apologist but you do realize they did more then just that?
The Soviets went along hand in hand with the Nazi takeover of Eastern Europe all the way to June 21st 1941. They carved up Poland, agreed to allow the Nazi's to conquer everything else, ordered their Communist Parties to oppose the resistance in those nations, used their agreement with the Nazis to seize land from Romania and to attack Finland, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia. AND up until the day the war began supplied massive amounts of fuel and raw material that allowed for the Nazi War machine to march across Europe from Oslo to Athens.
Its a bit more then "defending themselves" from the Nazis.
I did some reading and believe that the USSR was co-belligerent with Germany. Here language from the Holocaust website that I believe defines the "Axis":
"Although the Axis partners never developed institutions to coordinate foreign or military policy as the Allies did, the Axis partners had two common interests: 1) territorial expansion and foundation of empires based on military conquest and the overthrow of the post-World War I international order; and 2) the destruction or neutralization of Soviet Communism.
On November 1, 1936, Germany and Italy, reflecting their common interest in destabilizing the European order, announced a Rome-Berlin Axis one week after signing a treaty of friendship. Nearly a month later, on November 25, 1936, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan signed the so-called Anti-Comintern Pact directed at the Soviet Union. Italy joined the Anti-Comintern Pact on November 6, 1937. On May 22, 1939, Germany and Italy signed the so-called Pact of Steel, formalizing the Axis alliance with military provisions. Finally, on September 27, 1940, Germany, Italy, and Japan signed the Tripartite Pact, which became known as the Axis alliance.
Even before the Tripartite Pact, two of the three Axis powers had initiated conflicts that would become theaters of war in World War II. On July 7, 1937, Japan invaded China to initiate the war in the Pacific; while the German invasion of Poland on September 1, 1939, unleashed the European war. Italy entered World War II on the Axis side on June 10, 1940, as the defeat of France became apparent.
OTHER COUNTRIES JOIN THE AXIS ALLIANCE
In July 1940, just weeks after the defeat of France, Hitler decided that Nazi Germany would attack the Soviet Union the following spring. In order to secure raw materials, transit rights for German troops, and troop contributions for the invasion from sympathetic powers, Germany began to cajole and pressure the southeast European states to join the Axis. Nazi Germany offered economic aid to Slovakia and military protection and Soviet territory to Romania, while warning Hungary that recent German support for Hungarian annexations of Czechoslovak and Romanian territory might change to the benefit of Slovakia and Romania.
Italy’s failed effort to conquer Greece in the late autumn and winter of 1940-1941 exacerbated German concerns about securing their southeastern flank in the Balkans. Greek entry into the war and victories in northern Greece and Albania allowed the British to open a Balkan front against the Axis in Greece that might threaten Romania’s oil fields, which were vital to Nazi Germany’s invasion plans. To subdue Greece and move the British off the European mainland, Nazi Germany now required troop transport through Yugoslavia and Bulgaria.
After the Italo-Greek front opened on October 28, 1940, German pressure on Hungary and the Balkan States intensified. Hoping for preferential economic treatment, mindful of recent German support for annexation of northern Transylvania, and eager for future Axis support for acquiring the remainder of Transylvania, Hungary joined the Axis on November 20, 1940. Having already requested and received a German military mission in October 1940, the Romanians joined on November 23, 1940. They hoped that loyal support for a German invasion of the Soviet Union and faithful oil deliveries would destroy the Soviet threat, return the provinces annexed by the Soviet Union in June 1940, and win German support for the return of northern Transylvania. Both politically and economically dependent on Germany for its very existence as an “independent” state, Slovakia followed suit on November 24.
Bulgaria, whose leaders were reluctant to get involved in a war with the Soviet Union, and Yugoslavia, which was nominally an ally of Greece, stalled, resisting German pressure. After the Germans offered Greek territory in Thrace and exempted it from participation in the invasion of the Soviet Union, Bulgaria joined the Axis on March 1, 1941. When the Germans agreed to settle for Yugoslav neutrality in the war against Greece, without demanding transit rights for Axis troops, Yugoslavia reluctantly joined the Axis on March 25, 1941. Two days later, Serbian military officers overthrew the government that had signed the Tripartite Pact. After the subsequent invasion and dismemberment of Yugoslavia by Germany, Italy, Hungary, and Bulgaria in April, the newly established and so-called Independent State of Croatia joined the Axis on June 15, 1941.
On June 26, 1941, four days after the Axis invasion of the Soviet Union, Finland, seeking to regain territory lost during the 1939-1940 Winter War, entered the war against the USSR as a “co-belligerent.” Finland never signed the Tripartite Pact.
After Japan’s surprise attack on the United States fleet anchored at Pearl Harbor in Hawaii on December 7, 1941, and the declaration of war on the United States by Germany and the European Axis powers within a week, the Atlantic and Pacific wars became a truly world war."
"Although the Axis partners never developed institutions to coordinate foreign or military policy as the Allies did, the Axis partners had two common interests: 1) territorial expansion and foundation of empires based on military conquest and the overthrow of the post-World War I international order; and 2) the destruction or neutralization of Soviet Communism.
On November 1, 1936, Germany and Italy, reflecting their common interest in destabilizing the European order, announced a Rome-Berlin Axis one week after signing a treaty of friendship. Nearly a month later, on November 25, 1936, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan signed the so-called Anti-Comintern Pact directed at the Soviet Union. Italy joined the Anti-Comintern Pact on November 6, 1937. On May 22, 1939, Germany and Italy signed the so-called Pact of Steel, formalizing the Axis alliance with military provisions. Finally, on September 27, 1940, Germany, Italy, and Japan signed the Tripartite Pact, which became known as the Axis alliance.
Even before the Tripartite Pact, two of the three Axis powers had initiated conflicts that would become theaters of war in World War II. On July 7, 1937, Japan invaded China to initiate the war in the Pacific; while the German invasion of Poland on September 1, 1939, unleashed the European war. Italy entered World War II on the Axis side on June 10, 1940, as the defeat of France became apparent.
OTHER COUNTRIES JOIN THE AXIS ALLIANCE
In July 1940, just weeks after the defeat of France, Hitler decided that Nazi Germany would attack the Soviet Union the following spring. In order to secure raw materials, transit rights for German troops, and troop contributions for the invasion from sympathetic powers, Germany began to cajole and pressure the southeast European states to join the Axis. Nazi Germany offered economic aid to Slovakia and military protection and Soviet territory to Romania, while warning Hungary that recent German support for Hungarian annexations of Czechoslovak and Romanian territory might change to the benefit of Slovakia and Romania.
Italy’s failed effort to conquer Greece in the late autumn and winter of 1940-1941 exacerbated German concerns about securing their southeastern flank in the Balkans. Greek entry into the war and victories in northern Greece and Albania allowed the British to open a Balkan front against the Axis in Greece that might threaten Romania’s oil fields, which were vital to Nazi Germany’s invasion plans. To subdue Greece and move the British off the European mainland, Nazi Germany now required troop transport through Yugoslavia and Bulgaria.
After the Italo-Greek front opened on October 28, 1940, German pressure on Hungary and the Balkan States intensified. Hoping for preferential economic treatment, mindful of recent German support for annexation of northern Transylvania, and eager for future Axis support for acquiring the remainder of Transylvania, Hungary joined the Axis on November 20, 1940. Having already requested and received a German military mission in October 1940, the Romanians joined on November 23, 1940. They hoped that loyal support for a German invasion of the Soviet Union and faithful oil deliveries would destroy the Soviet threat, return the provinces annexed by the Soviet Union in June 1940, and win German support for the return of northern Transylvania. Both politically and economically dependent on Germany for its very existence as an “independent” state, Slovakia followed suit on November 24.
Bulgaria, whose leaders were reluctant to get involved in a war with the Soviet Union, and Yugoslavia, which was nominally an ally of Greece, stalled, resisting German pressure. After the Germans offered Greek territory in Thrace and exempted it from participation in the invasion of the Soviet Union, Bulgaria joined the Axis on March 1, 1941. When the Germans agreed to settle for Yugoslav neutrality in the war against Greece, without demanding transit rights for Axis troops, Yugoslavia reluctantly joined the Axis on March 25, 1941. Two days later, Serbian military officers overthrew the government that had signed the Tripartite Pact. After the subsequent invasion and dismemberment of Yugoslavia by Germany, Italy, Hungary, and Bulgaria in April, the newly established and so-called Independent State of Croatia joined the Axis on June 15, 1941.
On June 26, 1941, four days after the Axis invasion of the Soviet Union, Finland, seeking to regain territory lost during the 1939-1940 Winter War, entered the war against the USSR as a “co-belligerent.” Finland never signed the Tripartite Pact.
After Japan’s surprise attack on the United States fleet anchored at Pearl Harbor in Hawaii on December 7, 1941, and the declaration of war on the United States by Germany and the European Axis powers within a week, the Atlantic and Pacific wars became a truly world war."
It's "either Option X or a close variation of Option X" really. So the question still works.
But yes, it can look that way at first glance
(Just in case, my personal opinion is that they weren't, but I wouldn't group them with the Allies, either. Then again, whatever group Finland was in, the USSR probably wasn't (or the Winter War wouldn't have existed), so it that former one is Axis (I don't remember exactly) the question is then settled.