The Sons of Topiltzin Ce Acatl Quetzalcoatl

Topiltzin Ce Acatl Quetzalcoatl the bringer of life, beloved by his people, and worshiped as a deity by later cultures was credited by the Toltec for bringing them many things, most of them already having existed we know he did not; what if during his reign he, or at least a priest loyal to him, had brought his people an innovation that would not arrive be known to the Mesoamerican people until they came to be subjugated by men from another world? What if the Toltec had independently, and perhaps by complete accident invented gunpowder [1]? What if the God-Emperor had used this tool to build an empire that did not use Human sacrifice as a means to appease gods? What if the because of this innovation the Toltec never fell?

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[1] All the ingredients needed to create gunpowder can be found through out much of the area that the Toltec dwelled in or around.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Topiltzin Ce Acatl Quetzalcoatl the bringer of life, beloved by his people, and worshiped as a deity by later cultures was credited by the Toltec for bringing them many things, most of them already having existed we know he did not; what if during his reign he, or at least a priest loyal to him, had brought his people an innovation that would not arrive be known to the Mesoamerican people until they came to be subjugated by men from another world? What if the Toltec had independently, and perhaps by complete accident invented gunpowder [1]? What if the God-Emperor had used this tool to build an empire that did not use Human sacrifice as a means to appease gods? What if the because of this innovation the Toltec never fell?

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[1] All the ingredients needed to create gunpowder can be found through out much of the area that the Toltec dwelled in or around.

You need more than just gunpowder. The Incas knew metallurgy and used bronze, but beyond gold, the mesoamerican knowledge of such was extremely limited.
 
In addition, you need to make the utility of gunpowder immediately apparent. IOTL, it started as ceremonial use and siege weapons. Did the Toltecs or their neighbors have any particularly spectacular walls? If not, it may end up as nothing more than a ceremonial ritual toy.
 
Guns were not very useful in the Conquest. There were few of them compared to other arms and their best use in Spanish hands was as a noise maker that the natives learned how to counter by the time the Siege of Tenochtitlan happened. Given the lack of metallurgy experience in America, they will be even more useless than the Spanish guns most likely. And unfortunately I do not think that having an empire that did not sacrifice people would help them very much. Even if the Aztecs did not perform human sacrifice, the Spanish would still get hundreds of thousands of allies. The reason the Totonacs, the Tlaxcallans, and the Huexotzingans and such were angry at the Mexica was not that they were sacrificed by them, but that they lost. The resentment that made them join Cortez was the resentment of the conquered or the losing peoples world over.
 
In addition, you need to make the utility of gunpowder immediately apparent. IOTL, it started as ceremonial use and siege weapons. Did the Toltecs or their neighbors have any particularly spectacular walls? If not, it may end up as nothing more than a ceremonial ritual toy.

At this point in history neither the Toltec nor the other Mesoamerican cultures really had wall as defensive structures [1], but as a ceremonial tool it would revolutionize Toltec society. Imagine the impact on the Toltec if Ce Acatl Quetzalcoatl or one of his priests suddenly had the ability to create explosions of smoke and fire. This could prove enough to pull more of the Toltec influenced tribes into religious alignment, laying the foundation for a stronger Toltec empire. Perhaps some time down the ages its potential as a weapon of war is realize; maybe, not even by the Toltec but instead by another group of Mesoamericans. One can never underestimate the effects of pomp and circumstance. We must also take into account the Collapse of the Maya when discussing this [2].

You need more than just gunpowder. The Incas knew metallurgy and used bronze, but beyond gold, the mesoamerican knowledge of such was extremely limited.

They would indeed need to advance in metallurgy, but it takes baby steps. At this point in Western Mexico we see the Mesoamericans working with copper and a few low-arsenic metals. Mostly we just see jewelry, and hand tools, but in about the thirteenth century we see evidence of Contact between the civilizations of West Mexico and Peru in the form of Bronze. Now if we have a stable, strong, and rather renaissance-like [3] civilization flourishing in western and southern Mexico we could expect to see these ideas and techniques disseminate throughout the empire. With this we may see a rise in utilitarian metallurgy throughout the Toltec empire; in the form of tools, swords, and perhaps cannons.

And unfortunately I do not think that having an empire that did not sacrifice people would help them very much. Even if the Aztecs did not perform human sacrifice, the Spanish would still get hundreds of thousands of allies. The reason the Totonacs, the Tlaxcallans, and the Huexotzingans and such were angry at the Mexica was not that they were sacrificed by them, but that they lost. The resentment that made them join Cortez was the resentment of the conquered or the losing peoples world over.


I don’t want to sound rude or anything but, your referring to the Aztecs is slightly anachronistic. The Aztecan Empire would likely be butterflied away by the Pod [4], likely being either integrated into the Toltec Empire when they arrived in Valley of Mexico or being defeated by the Toltec militarily and being pushed back out of the Mexican Valley. Most historical evidence shows that though they both spoke the same language, and the Aztec claimed lineage from Ce Acatl Quetzalcoatl, the Toltec civilization was not hated on anywhere near the level same level that the Aztec were by those they had bested. Plus with the religious implications of the Pod we might not see that many other major civilizations in Mexico, and if we do they might be on much better terms with the Toltec than OTL peoples were with the Aztec.

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[1] We do see pyramids and cities of stone, but we don’t really see that many walled cities until the advent of siege warfare which came didn’t rise to prominence until the postclassical era.

[2] At the point at which the Toltec would be achieving the ability to use and make gunpowder the Maya are collapsing and a nomadic people similar to the Toltec, speaking the same language, are invading part of the collapsing Classical Mayan civilization.

[3] The Toltec were one of the most advanced Mesoamerican people; they would be emulated by the Mixtec and the Aztec. The cultures that we see after them never truly rise past them in art and architecture.

[4] If we have a surviving Toltec civilization the Aztec, barbarians at the time, would likely never risen in strength or sofistication to challange them.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
I'd have one more nitpick: the Aztecs were Great Basin peoples who emigrated for some unknown reason but they were not, as their mythology purports, nomadic hunters, they came from a region with settled civilization comparable to the ancient Utes, Hopis and other pueblo peoples (the remains we call stupidly Anasazi after the name for ancestor in the Apache invaders' language; that's about like calling the Roman empire the Hunnic empire :p ).
 
I'd have one more nitpick: the Aztecs were Great Basin peoples who emigrated for some unknown reason but they were not, as their mythology purports, nomadic hunters, they came from a region with settled civilization comparable to the ancient Utes, Hopis and other pueblo peoples (the remains we call stupidly Anasazi after the name for ancestor in the Apache invaders' language; that's about like calling the Roman empire the Hunnic empire :p ).

Sorry about that. They aren't barbarous nomads, but at the time of the Pod they are not equal to the Toltec.
 
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archaeogeek

Banned
Sorry about that. They aren't barbarous nomads, but they are at the time of the Pod they are not equal to the Toltec.

I know the description is tempting, they themselves adopted the notion that the peoples to the north of them were barbarous nomads as well and to some extent the expanse of Mexico between today's Arizona and Zacatecas was populated by peoples who had similar relationships to the mesoamerican empires as the pastoralists of eurasia had with the empires there. Plus they did have that idea of themselves where they came in and toppled a decadent, degenerate civilization to reshape it in their image into a strong powerful empire.
 
I know the description is tempting, they themselves adopted the notion that the peoples to the north of them were barbarous nomads as well and to some extent the expanse of Mexico between today's Arizona and Zacatecas was populated by peoples who had similar relationships to the mesoamerican empires as the pastoralists of eurasia had with the empires there. Plus they did have that idea of themselves where they came in and toppled a decadent, degenerate civilization to reshape it in their image into a strong powerful empire.

Just to let you know I kind of screwed up in my reply to your statment and didn't realize is until you replied. I completely agree with your statment.
 
I don’t want to sound rude or anything but, your referring to the Aztecs is slightly anachronistic. The Aztecan Empire would likely be butterflied away by the Pod [4], likely being either integrated into the Toltec Empire when they arrived in Valley of Mexico or being defeated by the Toltec militarily and being pushed back out of the Mexican Valley. Most historical evidence shows that though they both spoke the same language, and the Aztec claimed lineage from Ce Acatl Quetzalcoatl, the Toltec civilization was not hated on anywhere near the level same level that the Aztec were by those they had bested. Plus with the religious implications of the Pod we might not see that many other major civilizations in Mexico, and if we do they might be on much better terms with the Toltec than OTL peoples were with the Aztec.
My point still stands. Even in their own era the Toltecs were not the only people of Central Mexico. Nor were they universally loved despite what the Aztecs liked to say about them. And the POD is not going to butterfly everyone away. The Nahua are still likely to come, and the Zapotecs, Totonacs, Huastecs, Cholulans, and Mixtecs among others are already there. Toltec reign will not bring peace to Mexico, nor will their limited ability to create metal and guns fend off the conquistadors. Disease will still claim a great many, and their use of metal and guns to conquer many peoples will fuel more than enough resentment for their neighbors to join the invading Spanish.
 
Maybe if the Toltecs went on a unprecedented Assimilation spree. Chinese style.
They don't have the time for one thing. That, and a total conquest at all doesn't seem to be very likely. Toltecs with guns and bronze means that eventually, before the Conquest, their neighbors would have guns and bronze. Those two things would not help them to instantaneously take over everyone in the area. People will catch on, and fight back. And also, total conquest was never a Mesoamerican thing really. When the Triple Alliance conquered people, they reduced them to a tributary state, but they never outright assimilated them or destroyed them. Hell, they often adopted the local deities. Total conquest and assimilation was just something they never seemed to care for. The Toltecs might have a better chance if they just keep to themselves, not conquering the more powerful neighbors. But even then, the others might see an advantage in employing the Spaniards to increase their tribute. The only place in Mesoamerica where full-on unification is possible and advantageous would be in the Yucatan. Despite large differences in the various groups, they all thought of themselves as Mayan. In Mexico the wars were fought between nations and peoples. In Yucatan, wars were fought between families and dynasties. Well, in the Toltec era there was also a collective mistrust and sometimes hatred of the Mexican immigrants like the Itza most especially. But even they were absorbed into the Maya way of things and were considered more like a dynasty than a rival nation, albeit a foreign and bizarre dynasty.
 
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