When I said North America I was originally going to say colonizing North America below the borders of the British Carolina Colony. But thought back on it when I realized that British Carolina and French Lower Louisiana would only be founded a century later.
The Sons of Inti Shall Not Perish
- Thread starter King of the Uzbeks
- Start date
When I said North America I was originally going to say colonizing North America below the borders of the British Carolina Colony. But thought back on it when I realized that British Carolina and French Lower Louisiana would only be founded a century later.
Well about 80 years from the PoD really. The British didn't have a successful colony until 1606 with the Virginia colony, although they did have a number of previous attempts (Saint John's, Newfoundland on and off between 1520 and 1620 when they finally established a permanent settlement; Roanoke Colony in North Carolina which existed for at best about four years between 1585-1590; Cuttyhunk colony in Massachusetts, which was settled and abandoned within the month in 1602).
France wouldn't have one until 1608 with Quebec (their previous attempts included settlement along the Gaspe Peninsula in 1534, Fort Caroline in 1564 [which was subsequently sacked and burned to oblivion by the Spanish the following year], Sable Island in 1598, Tadoussac in 1600 & Ile-Saint-Croix in 1604 (who went on to become Port-Royal in 1605-1613, and later various settlements in Acadia from 1613 onwards.)
Long story short, both England and France have the resources to colonize, even as early as they did. They just didn't get lucky for the entirety of the 16th century, probably further worsened by the fact of Religious issues leading to unrest in England and outright Civil War in France.
France wouldn't have one until 1608 with Quebec (their previous attempts included settlement along the Gaspe Peninsula in 1534, Fort Caroline in 1564 [which was subsequently sacked and burned to oblivion by the Spanish the following year], Sable Island in 1598, Tadoussac in 1600 & Ile-Saint-Croix in 1604 (who went on to become Port-Royal in 1605-1613, and later various settlements in Acadia from 1613 onwards.)
Long story short, both England and France have the resources to colonize, even as early as they did. They just didn't get lucky for the entirety of the 16th century, probably further worsened by the fact of Religious issues leading to unrest in England and outright Civil War in France.
So with the change circumstances of the Spanish Empire, will the colonization of the americas change in any substantial manner in your mind?
I cannot say for sure. With a PoD this early, I could forsee any one failed colony before there actual successful ones OTL actually having better luck. More so with England than with France considering France would probably be far more focused on its Italian ambitions over establishing colonial states in the New World.
The big question would be thus, who would be in a better position to support Tawantinsuyu as a counterweight to Spain in the New World. Do note that such support would only be of convenience really. Even with friends from Europe, the Inca would still be effectively isolated for the most part, surrounded by Spain on all sides except to its east, which is dominated either by Andes Mountains or Amazon Rainforest.
The big question would be thus, who would be in a better position to support Tawantinsuyu as a counterweight to Spain in the New World. Do note that such support would only be of convenience really. Even with friends from Europe, the Inca would still be effectively isolated for the most part, surrounded by Spain on all sides except to its east, which is dominated either by Andes Mountains or Amazon Rainforest.
Depending on whether or not Queen Elizabeth I comes to power like OTL, then it's safe to say that she would take great interest in forging an alliance with the Tawantinsuyu in combating the Spanish trade monopoly on Gold and Silver. Which could lead to establishment of forts and eventual settlements along the southern cone to better access trade with the native empire
The settlements on the Rio de la Plata are dangerous because the Tawantinsuyu have no idea they exist and had very little way in defenses in the Southern areas. A small force could run around the Southern empire, currently run by someone a little on the outs with Cusco, with little opposition for a long time before Atahualpa could organize his plague ridden armies for the long march south, and they'd likely have native allies. Th south is also where the iron mines are.
I have plans. I will not comment on them except to say that the word that something big and rich is fighting the Spanish in the Americas is starting to be heard around Europe.
Thanks.
I will say that English politics/succession will decide if/when they show up.
That was mainly due to FUR
Yep. Just wait until Germany goes to shit.
Still looking pretty precarious for the Sons of Inti: this is turning into a real cliff-hanger of a serial.
They are walking the tight rope, that's for sure.
Welsers you say.....
stay tuned
By nadir I meant what you said above. The overall population is still in a downward spiral, but the percentage lost each year has passed the worse.
Well, Atahualpa can't forever. But fear not! Nobody knows about some of the the silver mines just yet.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
Well, I've already made my opinion on this silver clear (that it's most interesting if it remains in the mountain for longer). Also, you sure, given that major change, that Germany will still go to shit? Because the lack of a silver influx in Europe could very well have an effect there.
I get the feeling that a war of succession will arise between those who support Queen Mary I and OTL Elizabeth I if King Edward VI dies like OTL. The former will win in such a scenario since she will have support from the Irish and English Catholics for restoring Roman Catholicism, and for being married to King Philip II who would gladly support his wifes succession to the English Throne if it means better relations in the future. That is depending if he isn't to busy with continental and colonial affair that is.
Does anyone know about Potosí? It seems that a literal mountain of silver discovered would cause immediate renewal of war between the Spanish and Tawantisuyu.
The Schmalkaldic League is almost certainly going to seize on the current issues surrounding Imperial inheritance to press their case.
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Thought on north America: no, there isn't going to be a major Spanish colonial push. The Spanish colonists of this era aren't looking for a little farm to call their own: they want gold and silver and tractable Indian servants to do the work, so they can live the life of a proper Don. The sort of precious-metals rich, densely populated societies they need just aren't there, especially after the first few waves of plagues have gone through. What might happen, given the larger number of would-be Conquistadors so far cheated out of Andean slaves by this TL, is more exploratory expeditions and people heading off into the bush in search of some Dorado or other. We might get some more minor missionary outposts in north America or small settlements: most, like the Florida colonies of OTL, probably won't amount too much: but something might take root that grows into something important by the 19th century. (Another *Uruguay? Another *Nicaragua?) Also, more exploratory missions means the Spanish may find things they don't OTL: they might cotton on to the fact the Mississippi river De Soto crossed OTL is part of a system that connects the entire interior of North America, and dispatch some explorers upriver, maybe in search of that fershelugginer Northwest Passage.
Then, of course, the solution is to build alliances with some of the native groups, engage in wars of extermination with the others, and then turn on the remaining native groups.
That sounds way too hitlery for the 16th century, and is also not how warfare works in North America at the time.
Wouldn't controlling the mouth of the Mississipi be enough. Since they could control it from New Spain and have a monopoly on future trade throughout the river basin.
There is the example of the Huron, who were destroyed with the help of the Iroquois, and then the Iroquois were then turned upon and destroyed.
But I suspect the situation will look a lot more like French Louisiana, with loyal Spaniards in the south and everything else being a backwater until the nineteenth century.
The problem is, how are they going to control it? As far as I know, the terrain isn't the friendliest to be sure, and there's a ton of native Americans around who are really not going to be happy with the ultra-Catholic Spanish around. Colonization in the Americas is a lot harder than just plopping some settlers somewhere and hoping for the best. Finally, why? The Spanish don't really want anything from the Mississippi at the time that they can't try getting from the Incas or Mexico.
If that is the case, then explain why did the french set up forts and eventual settlements throughout the area in OTL?
Chapter 1.15: Juan's Adventure's in Colonial Bureaucracy
Apparently this scene didn't happen enough
As clashes with the Spanish increased alongside his concerns over succession Atahualpa faced a multitude of problems, some of which he saw and some of which he did know. One thing that was in his favor was Sebastián de Belalcázar. The old conquistador still ruled in San Miguel, and his control of the city was undisputed, though Belalcázar did not particularly care about the raids done by fellow Spanish he did keep trade flowing into the empire from Spain. Any full on invasion would have cut into his profits and so he cracked down hard on any attempts at invasion. But the increased strain on relations was cutting in on his profits, and he faced increased suspicion at home. Many Spaniards could not comprehend that skirmishing was in fact an upgrade in violence instead of a deescalation of hostilities. Rumors began to swirl about Belalcázar's position. Rumors began to swirl about his relationship the the heathen natives. Rumors began to swirl that he was being payed off to keep the peace. This was, of course, completely and utterly true. Belalcázar had indeed been given large amounts of precious metals to stop his invasion of the empire. But these rumors expanded into a vast conspiracy headed by Belalcázar to keep other Spanish from raiding the Tawantinsuyu and to turn over Spaniards to the pagans for "vile rituals". These were slightly less true. Belalcázar did try and keep some raids from occurring, fearing retaliation against San Miguel, but if he himself profited he backed them. And when Spaniards found themselves seized by the Empire and pressed into the service of the Sapa Inka official protests often faded if Atahualpa poured a bit more silver into that month's purchases of gunpowder. Rumors that Belalcázar had abandoned Catholicism and had embraced the "pagan sun cult" of the natives were completely false.
Into this cesspit of rumors and half-truths waltzed Juan de Carvajal[1]. Not much is known about Carvajal earlier exploits, but sources from before 1545 have him hopping around Central America and the Caribbean. Like a few other brave souls before him he arrived in San Miguel determined to ignore Belalcázar and launch a full on invasion of the Tawantinsuyu empire. Unlike previous such men he came with a few hundred men, all ready to take on the Tawantinsuyu the minute they arrived on March 16 1545. Belalcázar balked and began his usual habit of denying supplies towards troublemakers. In response Carvajal made preparations to leave immediately. Skirmishes ensued between Carvajal's men and Belalcázar's men, skirmishes that began to turn out dangerously well for Carvajal. In response Belalcázar played one last card, a move that is hotly debated to this day. He sent a message to Quisquis in Tumbez.
Despite what some may say it was not a plea for help. It was not an invitation to enter San Miguel to crush Carvajal. It was a statement in his capacity as "Captain-General of Nuevo Oaxaca" that Carvajal was not a merchant "but a bandit" who by being so "forfeited all protections given to him by god and the law". The message was clear, Belalcázar would not raise a protest if Carvajal was crushed by Quisquis. Belalcázar was panicked about the loss of wealth that he would incur should Carvajal succeed. Belalcázar was also panicked about a loss of wealth should Carvajal be defeated and the Tawantinsuyu retaliated my storming San Miguel. Fragmented reports show the Quisquis was confused by the message and suspected a trap, and so sent out only a fraction of his forces, mostly crossbow men and only a few horses. They lay in wait just a few miles outside San Miguel to ambush Carvajal. On April 12 they attacked Carvajal's force as it marched towards Tumbez. But Carvajal had the benefit of hindsight and was well prepared for such an attack. And so, unlike previous Conquistadores, his men formed up, stood firm, and drove back the attacking party. Carvajal demonstrated clearly that while the Tawantinsuyu were quickly adapting European weapons they still lacked a firm grasp of the tactics needed to utilize them perfectly.
The Walls of Tumbez
Carvajal's tactical superiority would prove less useful when he reached Tumbez. The city, as was custom, ridden by plagues and food supply issues. However here Quisquis had a massive numerical advantage and the most formidable native built defenses in the Americas. Had Carvajal been better acquainted with the politics of the area he might have around Tumbez and rallied angry anti-Tawantinsuyu locals. But by attacking early he had only his own men to rely on. He didn't have the numbers for a siege nor the strength to take the city. 4 times he tried to gain entry to Tumbez, and he failed 4 times. His strength dwindled, and it became apparent that he faced death or capture. So Carvajal took his remaining men and returned to San Miguel on April 29 and sailed back off towards Panama.
Angered by the interference of Belalcázar Carvajal intended to take up his grievances with the Real Audiencia of Panama[2], which had nominal legal authority over San Miguel, though this authority had never been tested. However he found little restitution in Panama City. San Miguel kept Panama City an important place for merchants or would be bandits to travel through as they went to and from the Tawantinsuyu Empire. All of the Audiencia members had their fingers in the pie and also were receiving bribes that Carvajal could not hope to match. So Carvajal traveled even further north into lands conquered by Cortes.
There he appealed to Antonio de Mendoza, Viceroy of New Spain. The role of San Miguel had always been somewhat ambiguous, having come into existence by a Treaty with a foreign power. This meant who exactly had final say over it was in dispute. Mendoza went for the chance to assert control over San Miguel. He sent a message south demanding the Belalcázar come to Mexico City and a point for the story Carvajal was telling, which by now included human sacrifice. Instead he got a letter denying the allegations, asserting that nowhere in the founding documents of New Spain or Nuevo Oaxaca was the Viceroy of New Spain given any authority to pass judgment on the Captain-General of Nuevo Oaxaca. Mendoza responded with a further demand for Belalcázar to come to Mexico along with a formal judgement that Carvajal receive compensation for his losses. Belalcázar responded by sending a subordinate to Mexico who reiterated the previous point about lack of jurisdiction while also pointing out that judicial matters such as this were typically handled by Audiencias. Mendoza had had enough and formally declared Belalcázar outside of the law and stripped of his titles. Carvajal was giddy.
Then Mendoza did nothing.
See Some Evil, Hear Some Evil, Send Strongly Worded letters to the Evil
Antonio de Mendoza was a cautious man by nature, and had larger issues then a rebellious conquistador for to his south. Indeed had Belalcázar not been so spectacularly insubordinate it is unlikely Mendoza would have done as he did. Mendoza was a man who would advise his successor in New Spain to "Do Nothing, and Do it Slowly". When it came to organizing anything to force Belalcázar out of San Miguel Mendoza offered no help outside of declarations in his capacity of Viceroy. And that proved little help to Carvajal in Mexico, where local Spanish landowners resented attempts to expand the crown's power. Thus they were not supportive of a man whose sole claims were the dubious declarations of the Viceroy.
Carvajal might have been planning on giving up then and there, maybe galavanting off to Venezuela or something. Or perhaps he indented to sail across the Atlantic and press his claim with the Council of the Indies. But as he prepared to leave Mexico City he was hit with a bout of fever that kept him bedridden for months before killing him on January 4th 1546. Carvajal's rather anticlimactic death also killed off any chance of a private venture removing Belalcázar. From now on it would almost certainly being the Spanish crown enforcing Mendoza's decisions if they were ever actually enforced. Ironically it was around the time of Carvajal's death that Charles V and the Council of the Indies began to look at Mendoza's dispatch attacking Belalcázar's conduct.
Meanwhile Belalcázar responded to news of his removal with several actions. He beefed up the defenses of San Miguel, turning cannons towards the sea and raising the walls. No one seems to have informed the Tawantinsuyu of the change, which is odd. Obviously Belalcázar was not keen on telling them that he no longer had the backing of the crown, but generally the Tawantinsuyu were kept fairly well informed about events in San Miguel via spies, bribes, and captured Spaniards. It is possible they did hear rumors of the incident but dismissed them for some unknown reason. In any event these rumors, and Belalcázar's fortifications, slowed when word arrived of Carvajal's death.
So Atahualpa continued raising his sons and pursuing modernization. All the while the situation was shifting outside of his control, not just in San Miguel but also in Klein-Venedig.
•••••
1: Best known IOTL for violently ending the Welser's experiment in German colonialism.
2: IOTL a combination of corruption and Pizzaro's conquest meant that it would split up into two Audiencias, one in Lima and the other in Guatemala City. With no vast new conquest to govern it remains, though still very corrupt.
Pretty much all French settlement was in the Quebec area and the mouth of the Mississippi: most of the area claimed, the French were so thin on the ground that they didn't disturb the natives much. Also, French ventures into the American interior didn't get going until the 1600s, after several waves of plague had already gone through. (One reason the Puritans and Pilgrims were successful in the New England of the 1620s was that the area had already suffered heavy population losses from disease brought by casual contact with explorers, fishermen, etc.)