The Silver Knight, a Lithuania Timeline

What's your opinion on The Silver Knight so far?


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I love how a limo is something you fire and kill with in your world ;-)
Sometimes I wondered a little, though, why cultural, philosophical and artistic developments mirror OTL so much.
Is that some underlying materialist or universal belief of yours? (I would be surprised...) Or something else I didn´t realise so far?
Because to me, the way enlightenment was followed IOTL by Romanticism, then Realism, then Impressionism etc. in the Western world looks far from unavoidable.
I noticed this myself, and the way I justify this to me is that while the names of the movements themselves and the basic things they stand for are similar or even the same, the actual inner workings of the movements are quite a lot different from OTL.

For example, in this chapter, Realism has been presented as a lot more social-oriented than OTL, while Impressionism (Ispudia) is a lot more radical, and in fact much more resembles Expressionism rather than the movement it mirrors with the name, on my opinion.

Partially also because I find Victorian art and it's timeline boring.

However, Modernism is my favorite period in art history, and I wouldn't be me if I wouldn't make a number of changes there. Which I will. :)

What makes you think so? ))
latest
I can personally guarantee you that violence will not be the focus of the next chapter. And I can give you a 50% chance that it won't appear at all :p
 
I noticed this myself, and the way I justify this to me is that while the names of the movements themselves and the basic things they stand for are similar or even the same, the actual inner workings of the movements are quite a lot different from OTL.

For example, in this chapter, Realism has been presented as a lot more social-oriented than OTL, while Impressionism (Ispudia) is a lot more radical, and in fact much more resembles Expressionism rather than the movement it mirrors with the name, on my opinion.

Partially also because I find Victorian art and it's timeline boring.

However, Modernism is my favorite period in art history, and I wouldn't be me if I wouldn't make a number of changes there. Which I will. :)
I´m glad you like Modernism, too, and I´m looking forward to what you make of it. Yeah, your Realism sounds a bit like German Naturalism.
Boring Victorianism, yeah - I suppose the most boring culture in this timeline will be French, given how its socio-economic and political system mirrors OTL´s English/British...
 
Same culture. As for differences from Britain, well, they don't have influences coming in from a massive colonial empire, for one...

I don't know, I may be talking out of my ass or I just missed a joke you were trying to make.

What's up in Volga Russia? Haven't heard from them in a while
I wasn't planning to make a special chapter about them (I wouldn't have much new to say), but basically, conquest of the steppes and Central Asia has slowed due to Ottoman and Lithuanian interference, so the nation has moved on to focus on colonizing the territory already acquired, especially the fertile steppes. The differences between Volgaks and other eastern Slavs have become wide enough that they can be considered a separate nation by now.
 
Same culture. As for differences from Britain, well, they don't have influences coming in from a massive colonial empire, for one...

I don't know, I may be talking out of my ass or I just missed a joke you were trying to make.

I wasn't planning to make a special chapter about them (I wouldn't have much new to say), but basically, conquest of the steppes and Central Asia has slowed due to Ottoman and Lithuanian interference, so the nation has moved on to focus on colonizing the territory already acquired, especially the fertile steppes. The differences between Volgaks and other eastern Slavs have become wide enough that they can be considered a separate nation by now.
I wasn`t trying to make a joke. I just really wonder how much of OTL´s French culture in the 19th century mirrored stuff which predates your PoD and to what extent it´s been shaped by later events and developments. I tend to think, at least when compared to other European nations, it´s like 20 % pre-PoD and 80 % post, if not even more so.
Just a couple of random examples:
the closed shop elitism which has come to define French philosophical and literary culture, right down to all the counter-cultures and radical movements aimed against it, had its roots in absolutist structures of the 18th and even 17th centuries, which don`t exist in this timeline;
the relative absence of "moral plays" and the like were linked to France having evicted its Protestants/Hugenots;
a lot of French idealisations of idyllic nature, and its famed cuisine etc., again had a lot to do with a sharp divide between high-brow cities where all the power is concentrated, and a relatively underdeveloped rural countryside which still focuses on old-fashioned sorts of agriculture - ITTL you`ll have a more decentralised bourgeois power all over the place, and the countryside and nature are going to suffer dearly for being a pioneer in industrialisation.
 
I wasn`t trying to make a joke. I just really wonder how much of OTL´s French culture in the 19th century mirrored stuff which predates your PoD and to what extent it´s been shaped by later events and developments. I tend to think, at least when compared to other European nations, it´s like 20 % pre-PoD and 80 % post, if not even more so.
Just a couple of random examples:
the closed shop elitism which has come to define French philosophical and literary culture, right down to all the counter-cultures and radical movements aimed against it, had its roots in absolutist structures of the 18th and even 17th centuries, which don`t exist in this timeline;
the relative absence of "moral plays" and the like were linked to France having evicted its Protestants/Hugenots;
a lot of French idealisations of idyllic nature, and its famed cuisine etc., again had a lot to do with a sharp divide between high-brow cities where all the power is concentrated, and a relatively underdeveloped rural countryside which still focuses on old-fashioned sorts of agriculture - ITTL you`ll have a more decentralised bourgeois power all over the place, and the countryside and nature are going to suffer dearly for being a pioneer in industrialisation.
Ah, I understand where you're coming from now.
 
Bad news, people. Because of hardware problems, I will no longer be able to use my laptop, likely throughout this entire summer, which limits me to my virus-ridden, shitty old PC and my smartphone for the time being.

As a result, the rate of releasing new chapters for the TL will slow down, and I will most likely be unable to churn out a chapter every day or two like I did recently.
 
Bad news, people. Because of hardware problems, I will no longer be able to use my laptop, likely throughout this entire summer, which limits me to my virus-ridden, shitty old PC and my smartphone for the time being.

As a result, the rate of releasing new chapters for the TL will slow down, and I will most likely be unable to churn out a chapter every day or two like I did recently.

That sucks. Maybe you can use this as an opportunity to double check your ideas though? Or get more feedback?
 
That sucks. Maybe you can use this as an opportunity to double check your ideas though? Or get more feedback?
I always wait for any feedback here and edit my plans for the future of the TL accordingly, so the laptop going down isn't going to tear down any mountains there :)

Don't worry, I will try to post the next update in the next couple of days.
 
Special Chapter: The Ruthenian Question
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Special Chapter

The Ruthenian Question
The "Ruthenian Question" was a dilemma in the Empire of Lithuania, concerning the future and the situation of the Ruthenian... state? Nation? Region? Territory? The people of the time had a tough time telling what "Ruthenia" even was, so, as one may realise, this was not the easiest question to answer, not for the Emperor and his court, not for the neighbouring nations, not even for the Ruthenians themselves.

While the name "Ruthenia" comes from a Latinization of the word "Rus'", a common name for regions and historical states in East Slavic lands, the modern usage of the term, meaning the Slavic-inhabited lands in the lands around the Dnieper and beyond, centered in cities such as Kiev, Minsk, Chernigov, Polotsk and Vitebsk, arose during the 15th and 16th centuries, when the Lithuanians used the term and it's equivalents to refer to the long since integrated, peacefully ruled East Slavic lands, as opposed to the recently conquered Grand Principality of Tver', which became the heartland of the region which is now called "Russia".

While the Russians founded their national identity a history of resistance against Lithuanian rule, and the Lithuanians prided themselves in their great victories across the Russians, Tatars and Teutons, building their own identity on top, the Ruthenians did not have such an event in their history, and as a result, their nationality became murkier and murkier as time went on. In the 18th and 19th centuries, with faster and easier communication and rapidly changing lifestyles across Lithuania, assimilation and intermarriage began to slowly mix and conflate all of the three nations into one, with this process especially visible between Russians and Ruthenians, who were still only in the process of separating into different nations. The region around Vitebsk and Orsha, for example, previously a part of the Ruthenian heartland, was starting to Russify due to creeping up influence from their eastern neighbours.

At the same time, however, the rise of Nationalism did not leave the Empire out. While the Russians were already a firm nation-state and began to experience a renaissance of culture and nationalist thought, the writers and artists from Ruthenia split. Some continued to swear allegiance to Lithuania, even if they were not particularly enthusiastic about imperial rule, some began to abandon ship and attach themselves to Russian Romanticism, calling for a union of Ruthenia and Russia, maybe even with the Volga, into one powerful East Slavic State, while the rest stayed in support of what they perceived to be a Ruthenian culture. As you could tell by that wording, nobody was in agreement on what was Ruthenian and what was not. One of the most influential Romanticist artists from Ruthenia, one who helped inspire an entire movement, was Martyn Dorokhov (Lith. Martynas Darakovas), the so-called "Horace from Kiev" to Westerners, who wrote and published many poems, prose works and a number of epic poems on many historical moments from the history of the Kievan Rus' during the period between 1794 to 1811. His most famous work, "The Three Bogatyrs", nowadays often interpreted as an Aesopic tale about the struggles of the three East Slavic nations - Ruthenia, Russia and the Volgaks, represented by the Bogatyrs - against a metaphor for the Lithuanian empire, the three-headed dragon Smey Gorynych, was so popular that the Lithuanian government forced Dorokhov to leave the nation, moving to Prague, where he died not long after his departure. Despite his nickname, given to him by his readers in the West, Dorokhov was not from Kiev - in fact, he hails from Navahrudak, and his dialect, the one he used in his writings, was later used as the base for a codified and modernized Ruthenian language. A symbol of the Ruthenian nationalist movement, he is hailed as one of the greatest Slavic poets of his era, but the Ruthenians are not the only ones who claim his legacy - the Russians often try to make a point that he loved and hailed Russia as well as Ruthenia, while the Lithuanians carefully mention how he was still a citizen of the Lithuanian empire.

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An 1818 vitagraph of Martyn Dorokhov, made in Prague
Dorokhov's call for an independent Ruthenia was the main thing that inspired the Ruthenian separatist movement, one of the three separate waves each calling for a different future to the nation. Many Ruthenian separatists were young, burning with nationalism and patriotism, and often believed that kicking out the Emperor and introducing direct rule from Kiev will be a panacea to all of the region's problems, including, but not limited to, unequal industrialization, large wealth gaps between the rich and the poor, an ineffective agricultural sector due to the legacy of serfdom, and so on. These people wrote future anthems to a Ruthenian state, envisioned it's borders, and were usually ridiculed by many around them. The Russian nationalists, for one, believed that Ruthenia had no right to exist as a separate state, and any and all ideas of "separatism" were instilled by the Lithuanians as an attempt to divide the Slavs into weaker subgroups - the Russians had to experience first hand what a forcefully attempted division was like, back when the Lithuanians tried to divide the Russian nation into two cultures, one around Novgorod and the other around Tver, a tactic which was dropped by the end of the 18th century due to not achieving any visible results. As such, they viewed a rising Ruthenian nationalist movement with suspicion. Meanwhile, the Lithuanians were obviously unhappy with a second Slavic nationalist movement in their territory.

At the beginning, Ruthenian separatists were a fringe movement, mostly limited to cultural circles, but one development change it's face for decades to come. In the 1830s, both Visegrad and Lithuania went to war against the Ottomans, and there were serious fears that the two countries would be unable to divide their conquests in the Balkans and go to war with each other. This fear was shared by the governments of both nations, too, each worrying that the other will gnaw away too much land. It was the perfect opportunity for the Ruthenians, and around this time, a small delegation led by a man named Pyotr Skushnevsky arrived to Buda, inquiring on, were Visegrad and Lithuania go to war, if the Visegradians would support Ruthenian independence. Skushnevsky hoped to speak to the King himself and possibly sway him to support an independent Ruthenia, or at least present his ideas to the Convention of Three Nations, but he never got to do either - however, the officials who were presented with the idea usually responded positively. Even if Visegrad didn't believe in the longevity of a Ruthenian state, it would weaken their rival enough to be considered.

This plan never came to fruition, however, as Visegrad and Lithuania never went to war, both resorting to only minor claims on Ottoman territory, but Skushnevsky presented the results of his expedition to the cultural circles in Kiev, and it whipped up an outrage. How does this supporter of a fringe movement dare to claim to represent all Ruthenians?! However, this made separatist ideas more popular, and also set an ominous precedent - should the situation be right, Visegrad might not say "no" to supporting an independent Ruthenia...

However, separatism was not the only possible solution to the Ruthenian question, and not even the most popular one at that - that honor goes to the Federalist movement. Compared to the perceived tyranny and absolutism of the Lithuanian empire, Visegrad, which was sitting right next door, was like a beacon of hope and modernity - it was a powerful and wealthy industrial nation, it had a democratic parliamentary system, and most importantly, it seemingly managed to solve it's problems of multiculturalism by forming a federalized state with all three of the composing ethnicities respected. Such a system of government gained a lot of supporters across all of Lithuania, and while parliamentarism might have been too radical for what was at the time one of Europe's last true absolute monarchies, the idea of a "federal monarchy" with a Visegradian model was quite popular. Ruthenians hoped to establish a dual monarchy of "Lithuania-Ruthenia", where both of the constituent nations would have separate governments appointed from the locals (so Ruthenia would have a Ruthenian prime minister and Lithuania - Lithuanian), but with the same Emperor, foreign policy, military and other overarching institutions. Others were proposing a tripartite state of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Russia, in light of Visegrad's three nations, but creating a name for such a gigantic federal state was a lot tougher. Proposed names were "Sarmatia", "Slavica", or, as a joke option, "Lithessia" ("Liesėnija"), a combination of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Russia.

The Federalist movement was also the only one of the three movements which had supporters in the highest echelons of the government. As time went on, more and more politicians began to realize that the current situation which Lithuania is organized under is unsustainable. Sooner or later, Ruthenia and Russia would break away, and without them, Lithuania would be nothing, it's great power status would be lost forever. As such, measures need to be taken in order to prevent such a catastrophe - and federalizing the Empire was one of those options. Even Žygimantas III, Emperor of Lithuania from 1865 onward, held sympathies to such a proposal.

A third answer to the Ruthenian question arrived from the East, in the form of the Russophile movement. Despite the rise of Nationalism and the slow formation of a Ruthenian nation, a sizable portion of what we would consider "Ruthenians" actually considered themselves to be Russian in one shape or the other. While the separatists called them traitors, they nevertheless sympathized with the Russian struggle for independence and the failed rebellions against Russian rule. While Ruthenia had Dorokhov, he was not matched by any of his Ruthenian peers, while Russia lived through an enlightenment of national thought and culture in the form of Russian Romanticism, and many of it's artists saw Russia as one and indivisible, stretching from Galicia to the Volga, not divided into a bunch of nation-states. A separate Ruthenia, a separate Volga-Russia, a separate Russia - by themselves, they would be weak, not powerful enough to deter foreign oppression, while a hypothetical "Greater Russia" would not only endure foreign attacks, but would also be able to dominate Eastern Europe all on it's own. The Russophiles rejected the idea of an independent Ruthenian identity, calling it bogus and a Lithuanian ploy, while at the same time called for unity with their brethren in Tver' and Vostovsk. Many of the Ruthenian Russophiles were either Russian speakers themselves or had a personal connection with Russia - either by having lived there, having Russian heritage or marriage ties with one. It was also the most rebellious of the three movements, rejecting the idea that Visegrad would ever help the Slavs or create a Slavic state, and believing that only an armed rebellion can thus kick the Lithuanians out.

The Ruthenian question is one of the many parts of history that show that it is a very complicated field. Nowadays, people already know which of the three paths was successful in the long run, and thus take it for granted - but the truth is, at the time nobody knew how history was going to unfold.

---

The next chapter will also be about ideological splits in a nation, one that some people in the TL say might go extinct in the next century.

Do you like the fact that I give these hints for the next chapter, by the way? Since I have made plans for the course of this TL until pretty much modern day, I usually know what I will write about in the next chapter, so it's not a problem to me, but maybe you think it spoils too much?
 
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The Ruthenian Question
I see that nationalism has officially hit the Empire now. It's a bit late for them to 'unite' all their peoples under one identity, so federalism would be their best bet imo.

Also, I know that we've got the Three Nations of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Russia and the unofficial Fourth Nation of the Jews, what other minorities does the Empire have? I know that there's some Poles around their Western borders, maybe some German remnants in *Prussia and some Tartars scattered around the Black Sea, but is there anybody else that's worth noting? Maybe we could get a map showing the liguistic/ethnic/whatever makeup of Lietuva?
The next chapter will also be about ideological splits in a nation, one that some people in the TL say might go extinct in the next century.

Do you like the fact that I give these hints for the next chapter, by the way? Since I have made plans for the course of this TL until pretty much modern day, I usually know what I will write about in the next chapter, so it's not a problem to me, but maybe you think it spoils too much?
I think the hints may have been a bit too obvious - they didn't reveal what was going to happen or anything, but they could have been much more subtle.
 
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To me, the hints are fine.
I don`t quite believe in Lithuanian federalisation. In many ways, Lithuania finds itself in a situation similar to that of OTL´s Austria-Hungary. Only worse. In A-H, there had been similar ideas, but they ultimately fell through because things had gotten too entrenched for that. I fear TTL´s Lithuania is in even bigger troubles.
 
Also, I know that we've got the Three Nations of Lithuaia, Ruthenia and Russia and the unofficial Fourth Nation of the Jews, what other minorities does the Empire have? I know that there's some Poles around their Western borders, maybe some German remnants in *Prussia and some Tartars scattered around the Black Sea, but is there anybody else that's worth noting? Maybe we could get a map showing the liguistic/ethnic/whatever makeup of Lietuva?
I was actually thinking of maybe making a culture map to clear some things out for a few people, so I might make something like that, but as for minorities, off the top of my head:

* Jews, as you mentioned
* Germans in Prussian cities and Riga
* Poles in Podlasie
* Crimean Tatars in, obviously, Crimea, as well as surrounding steppe
* Karaites (a minor ethnoreligious Jewish sect) in a few Lithuanian cities
* Estonians
* Letts (who in OTL became Latvians, but that might not happen in TTL)
* Circassians in Circassia
* Other North Caucasian cultures in Circassia
* Finno-Ugric tribes and nations (Mordvins, Komi, Nenets, etc.) in the north.

It's a mess.
 
And in the Crimea - there they were widely distributed. As for the Russians, they were not an independent people, but they already want to eradicate the empire!
True, there were many Karaites in Crimea as well, they were "Crimean Karaites" for a reason. My mind spazzed out for a moment there.
 
Did some pro-Lithuanians should also appears in reaction against them ?
Because Lithuanians and Ruthenians share a common history these last century, many Lithuanians people that are legends in their history are Ruthenians, some could hate the fact that Ruthenians separatists want an alliance with Visegrad an enemies they fight during centuries, same for pro-Russian. Maybe some could even want took the power in Lithuania if they know they are the majority of people. They could see themselves as the protector of Lithuanian empire.
 
@Russian, you are everyone's favorite East Slav - do you have any thoughts on the current update? I'd love to hear your input.
Well, it is a well thought update.
A month ago or so I was afraid that your exorbitant patriotism and exuberant enthusiasm would lead you to Lithuania conquering India, China and eventually colonizing Mars.
Now your TL is more mature.

I am going to tell you a story; it is not about Lithuania, Ruthenia or Russia, but it is somehow relevant:
In 1066 the French-speaking Normans conquered England, and that was a truly bloody conquest, full of riots, atrocities etc.
Henry IV was the first monarch to address Parliament in English, at his coronation in 1399.
Soon English became the official language of England.

My point here is -
My guess is Lithuanian Empire is ruled by a hundred families (or so) - fabulously rich magnates, some of them own the lands size of a European kingdom, their holdings are scattered throughout Empire, mostly in Ruthenia and Russia; their influence on the Lithuanian politics is enormous and determinative, I suppose. 'Ethnically' those nobles are Lithuanians and heavily Lithuanized Ruthenians.
Those fat cats would lose most if the the Lithuanian Empire disintegrated, they desperately need the Empire.

So if one day a Lithuanian Emperor starts speaking the Ruthenian language in public as the first step, then he starts using Ruthenian as an official language stage by stage - a lot of Lithuanians would be violently against it; but the Lithuanian nobility might support the emperor, as it is better to lose Lithuanian as the official imperial language, than losing the Empire with all that riches.
Same people would rule the Empire using the different language.
And as a matter of fact the Lithuanian language doesn't die in Lithuania and it will be used as a second official language throughout Empire for a decade or so.

So the concept of "monarchy for the Lithuanians and for the Ruthenians" might save the Empire for a century or so. The Lithuanian loyalists in Ruthenia would be happy.
80% of the imperial Lithuanian army are Slavic speaking - they would shout "Long live the Emperor!" all night long, when he makes Ruthenian the language of the army.

The 'Russians" would support that too, as the Ruthenian language is closely related to Russian.
As I previously said, the Lithuanians living in the ocean of Slavic-speaking subjects are forced to know some Ruthenian at least, by necessity. So that change of the official imperial language won't be that painful as it seems.

The official imperial language in Lithuania proper might stay Lithuanian and Ruthenian (bilingual, for their old imperial pride). But if you're a Lithuanian and you want to take an imperial job - the Ruthenian language is a requirement.

Augenis, I know it is against your vision of the Lithuanian Empire, and most definitely you won't like it. But I kept thinking about saving this nice Empire of yours, and that is the only solution, which comes to my mind.
 
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