Victory where, exactly?
Sometimes, I'm a simple man
Perhaps it's ironic that a country which fought long to take down English oppression has now become the oppressor whom people fight.
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The Silver Knight, a Lithuania Timeline
- Thread starter Augenis
- Start date
I really hope these next set of updates are cultural ones, since those are my favourite ones from timelines like Toixstory's "Heart of Dixie" or "Lone Star Republic" by Kaiser Chris.
This timeline has already had it's fair share of cultural updates, actually. But more is always good.
Yes it is. Though I was hoping that each update would be centered on the nations of one continent at a time.
Hmmm... that's 1776 in your ATL and brave Polish cavalry had no chance against "modern technology", you say...
I just remembered OTL and the legendary charge of the Polish cavalry against much more modern technology of 1808 over extremely difficult terrain at the Battle of Somosierra. That was outrageously successful.
You don't seem to like the Poles, do you?
I consider this ATL of yours as the 'Lithuanian sweet revenge':
- for every Lithuanian killed by the Russian imperialists in OTL, the Lithuanian imperialists brutally massacred 15 Russians in your ATL (a rough estimation of course); to get even.
Don't you think it would be fair to Lithuanianise 15 Poles heartlessly in your ATL for every Lithuanian polonised in OTL? To be quits...
*the above was intended as a kind joke actually.
Those were not Winged Hussars, though. Modern, light cavalry can still be very successful in this era if they use shock value and surprise to their advantage, and the Winged Hussars in the Last Charge did not.
Attributing this to hate of Poles is baseless considering that about 10-20 chapters ago, I had Polish cavalry crush Lithuanian troops with no problem.
You know, if I was here to write a revenge fic against everyone who hurt Lithuania, then I would have to ruin far, far more countries than just those two. But I don't, because that's not what I'm here for.
I understand, but I'll be honest here - you constantly saying that I am writing this as a revenge fic is starting to get old...
British Australia, maybe, since they didn't get much in the Americas.
To be taken later by Lithuania of course.
Special Chapter: The Fourth Nation
Special Chapter
The Fourth Nation - Lithuanian Jews
It is no surprise to most people that Lithuania was surprisingly tolerant of Jewish religion and activity, and has been so since it's inception, but one should not be mistaken - this did not come from simple goodwill. In the early years of the Grand Duchy, Jewish settlers were among the wealthiest in the nation, and tolerating them was necessary to collect taxes and keep up trade in the nation, and as time went on, the Jewry became more and more important to the nation's economy, diplomacy and culture, pretty much integrating into the Empire as full citizens, and they responded to tolerance with loyalty. Much like in the past, Lithuanian rulers were in favor of Jewish trade and flourishing culture for the sake of collecting a hefty amount of tax. Obviously, one can't simply swing too much to the other side, either - not all of the reasons for this tolerance were materialistic, simple acceptance of foreign beliefs also played a part.
Throughout the 16th and 17th centuries, the number of Jews living in the Empire of Lithuania steadily increased due to immigration from the rest of Europe, most notably during the Twenty Years' War. This brutal conflict sparked a renewal of anti-semitism across Central Europe, especially in Germany - people were searching for any possible boogeyman to rally against in face of this insane horror, and Jews were the obvious choice. Spain had expelled it's Jewish population in the late 15th century, many German states followed during the Twenty Years' War, and in all of these cases the majority of the Jews fled to Lithuania, which was renown for it's acceptance of their nation. Calculating the exact number of Jews living in Lithuania at the time is tough due to lack of accurate census data, but it is measured that in 1780, almost 8% of the population of the Empire of Lithuania was either Jewish or half-Jewish, although this number is disputed by some historians, who state that it also includes Karaites, Tatars and other "privileged minorities".
In Lithuania, the Jews fulfilled a number of roles and jobs. Many were moneylenders, although this monopoly was being pushed out by Lithuanian or Ruthenian banks, but their most common position was as merchants or traders. Due to the high number of connections among the Jewish diaspora, they were able to supply the nation's towns, cities and villages with goods from the entire Empire and beyond, and it's been stated that almost every major population center in the country had at least one Jewish merchant. Lithuanian Jews, also called "Litvaks" were and are stereotypically seen as cold, well educated and stoic, focused on business on learning rather than social interaction - and this stereotype has a grain of truth in it, Litvaks were usually far more educated than the average peasant, they ran numerous colleges ("yeshivas") for theological education, but at the same time they were quite distant from the "gentiles". The heart of the Jewish nation was Vilnius, named Vilna by the Jews themselves, and commonly called the "New Jerusalem" due to it's impact in the nation's culture, philosophy and theology. This is where many of the most famous theologians of Judaism in this period originated from and spread their beliefs.
A synagogue in Jurbarkas
Many centuries have passed since the beginning of a Jewish diaspora in Lithuania. Called "Lita" by the Jews themselves, this vast nation had become their new homeland, and many of them was as fiercely patriotic of it as the Lithuanians themselves. Of course, at the same time retaining their old beliefs and traditions. Challenges still await for this hardy nation, of course...
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The next chapter will deal with these three symbols:
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What jews? England had expelled it's jews in 1290 before this timeline started. In OTl a few expelled from Portugal settled in the south of Ireland in the 1500s but otherwise there were no open jews in the british isles until the 1650s when Cromwell allowed them back in.
There wouldn't be any jews for brittania to expel.
I have seen those three symbols before, but what are they associated to in our timeline anyway?
Are there any 'unpatriotic' Slavs in the Lithuanian Empire?
Anyone like Bohdan Khmelnytsky of OTL for example?
In OTL the Slavs started to be aware of their own other identity in the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth a good century ago.
What happened to the Slavs in ATL? They don't think about autonomy (at least)?
It's kind of hard to be a patriotic Slav in the empire which is ruled by the tiny ethnic Lithuanian minority (and by the even tinier stratum of the Lithuanised Slavic magnates).
It is the country where if you want to get promoted you have to betray your Slavic roots and your Slavic identity (better actually forget, that you were ever a Slav).
How long will it take for the Slavs to realize that in the country where 90-80% of population is Slavic, it is them, the Slavs who have to rule the Empire (or get the Empire divided into several parts).
I don't think that it is something what they teach you in the Lithuanian schools, but in OTL before uniting with Poland, the Lithuanians were steadily Slavicised, as they were forced to use the Slavic language to rule their Slavic Empire. So without the Poles this historical Slavicisation of the Lithuanians is bound to happen.
*(Well, the irony of it is that OTL Polonisation of the Lithuanians was Slavicisation as well, as the Poles are the Slavs; so either way, OTL or ATL, the Lithuanians are to get Slavicised).
With the Slavs keeping their Slavic language, you need the help of all the alien space bats in the world to make the Slavs patriots of the Lithuanian Empire.
Try to look at it realistically:
- there's a Lithuanian army, where 80-90% are the Slavs which have to learn Lithuanian military commands. There must be a moment when the Slavs say: "What the Hell! Let the Lithuanians learn the Slavic language! That would be fair! They are too few, we are too many!"
You know making 'Lithuanian Empire' is possible; even keeping it for a century or so is doable.
What is impossible is keeping it "Lithuanian"; as the Lithuanians are a tiny 'ethnic' minority ruling over the ocean of the Slavs.
The Slavs have much more ancient culture, as they converted half a millennia earlier then the Lithuanians; and so it is the Lithuanians who are about to lose their 'ethnic' identity in the mix.
If you want to keep the Empire for long it has no other way, but to become the 'Slavic empire' with a little bit of Lithuanian aftertaste. Either that or going down in flames eventually.
I was actually thinking about the way to keep your Empire alive a little longer and at the same time with Lithuanians keeping their Lithuanian identity, language and culture... the only way I can think of is some kind of dual monarchy, like Austria-Hungary. So Lithuania-Ruthenia maybe? Where both countries, Lithuania and Ruthenia enjoy considerable sovereignty with only a few joint affairs (principally foreign relations and defense). I don't know, but with some luck that might work, I guess; if Russia is joined to Lithuania, and so Lithuania is not dwarfed by Ruthenia and to keep it in check...
But the way Lithuanian Empire is now is absolutely unrealistic, it cannot survive without the permanent (24 hours a day) supervision of the huge flock of alien space bats.
With all due respect your Lithuanian Empire is nothing more but a wet dream of a Lithuanian patriot; I mean it is fun, but it is ASB fun.
I don't know, maybe I am wrong, and owe you apology...
Maybe millions of the Russians mercilessly slaughtered on the pages of your TL was not revenge, but the way to show how the Lithuanians scared the shit out of the Slavs, the only way a minority could rule over the majority - by sheer terror and rivers of blood.
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I disagree with you over some point First about slavic they aren't hegemonic entity it composed of many ethny that often can't understand each other, they don't speak all the same langage or dialect that could be easily be understand by each other.
So Lithuania need a common language to command their army, or Lithuanian was used during century as official langage, it's presstigious, so people will be happy to learn this in army because with this thety speak the official langage that will give them privilege and a statut and why changed i mean until now army fights well, they didn't recruit lot of people quickly,...
They don't have reason to change their langage. by example in XVI century between 10 to 20 % speak french it was a huge minority and people didn't have problems with it and I don't see Slavic rebellion because now they are happy of their ruler that put an end to Serfdom.
So Lithuania need a common language to command their army, or Lithuanian was used during century as official langage, it's presstigious, so people will be happy to learn this in army because with this thety speak the official langage that will give them privilege and a statut and why changed i mean until now army fights well, they didn't recruit lot of people quickly,...
They don't have reason to change their langage. by example in XVI century between 10 to 20 % speak french it was a huge minority and people didn't have problems with it and I don't see Slavic rebellion because now they are happy of their ruler that put an end to Serfdom.
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Hmmmm, I wonder what makes you an expert in Slavic languages?
Me, though my nickname is @Russian , my mother is an ethnic Belorussian and my father's dad was a Ukrainian, and that's why I know what I am talking about:
- those Slavic languages are mutually comprehensible even now,
- centuries ago in OTL those Slavic languages had even more in common,
- in this ATL all those Slavs lived within the same Empire and mixing and communicating their languages are more similar to each other than in OTL (actually much of the difference is because the Slavs of OTL lived in different countries and were separated by state borders, which is not the case in this ATL).
As an expert I say, that Lithuanian is absolutely different from the Slavic languages. It's hard as hell to learn for a Slav.
In OTL in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth the Ukrainians and the Belorussians learned the Polish language, but only a little, never to the degree like the Lithuanians of OTL did; and you have to remember that the Polish language is the Slavic language).
In OTL the Slavs never ever learned the Lithuanian language (actually in the PLC most of the Lithuanians forgot their native tongue).
I guess you're French. Would you be happy to learn the Lithuanian in the army? Ah?
Would you be happy to learn Lithuanian to get a job in some all-France governmental ministry?
Well, I suppose the two large Russian rebellions we've had so far point in that direction, yes.Are there any 'unpatriotic' Slavs in the Lithuanian Empire?
Anyone like Bohdan Khmelnytsky of OTL for example?
Russia developed a national identity during the 16th-17th centuries and has more or less coalesced into a nation. I have a special chapter planned on the "Ruthenian Question" during this break period, so their situation will be covered.
I didn't butterfly away Slavic nationalities, don't worry.
I don't know where you get the idea that we don't learn about Lithuanian slavification, because we definitely do. The big thing about the Slavic influence on the Lithuanian people, however, was that for a very long time, it was mainly limited to the upper and middle classes, and it took centuries of intense contact with Poles, Belarusians and other Slavs for the peasantry to start to Slavicize (if I recall correctly, it started at the beginning of the 18th century, especially after the plague of 1709, which disproportionately affected the ethnic Lithuanian population).
And this is where we get an important factor in Slavification that was present IOTL, but never happened ITTL - in our timeline, Lithuanian was seen as a language for the poor, and anyone who spoke it publicly was often shamed for speaking a "peasant language". This never happened in this timeline, because in this case Lithuanians are not the people at the bottom of the nation.
It was my mistake in the update, I should have said "some Slavs" instead of just "Slavs". Obviously, say, Russians wouldn't feel much patriotism for a foreign conqueror.
Let me state that we still have 200+ years until the end of the TL, and almost anything can happen until then. I already know what will happen, but I can't say anything.
It sucks that I have to withhold so much information from you that might change how you think for the simple sake of not spoiling everything in the story for everyone else.