The Silver Knight, a Lithuania Timeline
- Thread starter Augenis
- Start date
"Shun" china? Was it a different dynasty that overthrew the Yuan than OTL? (What situation IS china in? Have the Manchus taken over?)
Well, I doubt China will take the Volga Russians THAT seriously unless their expansion starts coming close to their borders.
Well, I doubt China will take the Volga Russians THAT seriously unless their expansion starts coming close to their borders.
Yes, a native Chinese dynasty replaced the Ming in the middle of the 17th century. More information will come when the next update hits.
I was thinking Lithuanian Hetman will become like the Peshwa's Maratha empire in that they are military families that usurped power from a figurehead monarchs
I think that they will have to abolish feudalism in one day, Maybe become early-nationalist?
Will have an easier time then OTL Russia since they have ports that allow for more access to new objects and ideas that could make Feudalism and serfdom less needed.
ONE DAY, feudalism will be abolished in LIthuania, too, of course. But it might take longer than elsewhere.
Early nationalism is the opposite of what I consider likely for Lithuania. Early nationalism is going to be what will tear Lithuania`s Empire apart in the end. Lithuanian elites will uphold a different idea suited for the imperial state, I suspect, for as long as they can.
Early nationalism is the opposite of what I consider likely for Lithuania. Early nationalism is going to be what will tear Lithuania`s Empire apart in the end. Lithuanian elites will uphold a different idea suited for the imperial state, I suspect, for as long as they can.
True given the Russian Nationalist in their recent second revolt, but that may change as it's brutal crackdown may lead to an exodus to Volga Russia for safety.
Well, in this TL by Augenis the alternative "Russians" dearly pay for what OTL Russians did to OTL Lithuania. Those Russian 'imperialist pigs' deserved that. They call it 'web revenge' or something, I guess this thread is full of rivers of Russian blood
I don't remember if I mentioned it, but I am an old guy and I happened to serve in the occupation Soviet army in Lithuania in Vilnius as a private soldier, just before the end of the Soviet Union.
The funny part is that an ethnic Lithuanian served in my platoon and we ended up becoming buddies. Actually that was inevitable as the majority of the platoon were the Uzbeks and the guys from the Caucasus (Azerbajanies, Armenians, Chechens etc.).
One day we deserved a day off from the army, first time in 6 months and my Lithuanian friend invited me to his home - a little village not far from Vilnius; he promised a party, home food and the nature.
I gladly excepted.
It appeared to be the purist ethnic Lithuanian village ever. They hardly spoke Russian.
I guess I was the only Russian in the village and wearing a Russian/Soviet army uniform; so the first thing - my friend gave me his civilian clothes.
At the beginning of the party my friend gathered everybody and explained in Russian that I am his friend and though I am a Russian occupant - the only thing I dream of was to come back home, which was good thousand miles away. He added some words in Lithuanian, later I got to know that he said that if someone hurt his army pal, he would have his jaw broken in three places (he was a good boxer, my friend).
Everybody tried to speak Russian when I was around, which was difficult for them; I felt out of my place, uncomfortable.
So I quickly drank some strongest liquor, danced with the most beautiful Lithuanian girl (I did not touch a girl for six months, so she is remembered by me as the sexiest girl in my life).
After that I said that I have a 100 hours lack of sleep in my body and asked some bed to sleep and asked not to awake me before my leave is over.
My wishes were followed and that was one of the best days off in my life.
Sorry, had a cold one of beer and memories overwhelmed me ))
Let's not engage in mutual accusations of fascism-the Lithuanian and Russian governments do this very well for us. Simply find out the obvious facts - the fact of entering Stalinist armies in the Baltic States, and the fact that there was the highest standard of living in the territory of the USSR (Riga - the moderator of fashion).
That's one way of looking at it.
But there is another. If in this timeline the lithuanians in power do such bloody things to the russians when they hold the whip hand, it punctures the concept of them being eternal innocent victims.
Instead it's 'There but for the grace of god, go we' or 'it could happen here'.
Decades of darkness and other such stories about the USA turning out to be something darker are about puncturing the idea of american exceptionalism, that they were inevitably freer and gooder than other countries. I think you underestimate the atuhors of those if you assume he is instead cheering on his murderous yankee armies.
And likewise you underestimate @Augenis if you think he doesn't recognise the horror of what his fictional lithuanians have done. And that isn't at least part of the point. That there is always a price of being a succesful empire in the blood of innocents, regardless of who that empire is.
I won't try to write a dozen paragraphs of rebuttal against this argument, because it would be counterproductive and end up spoiling a lot of the story arcs I have planned for the future (and I have plans as far as the 20th century, some juicy plans in fact)
But what I have to say is that while it may look like I am dishing out petty revenge against Russians, these actions not too different from the standard procedure during the era we are discussing. Remember, this is the same century when the Thirty Years' War happened, and events like these were commonplace. But anyway. What I am doing with the Russian Revolts and Lithuanian oppression is building a new Russian identity, a different one compared to the OTL Russians. TTL Russians uphold such heroes as Kratkov and Semyonov, both of whom were democrats and republicans; TTL Russians are slowly developing a Finnish "sisu" equivalent in the form of the "russkaya dusha".
So on and so forth.
I won't deny that my own personal factors didn't come into play, though - after all, it is an AH subversion. What if the Russians were the oppressed ones instead of the ones oppressing others, like in many TLs? And opposite for Lithuanians, which are almost universally subjugated in this website.
Well said.
This is also a very good point.
Ye, that's right, those were cruel times.
There are a lot of military conflicts in your TL, where a lot of ethnicities envolved; but an attentive reader might notice that 99% of the most horrible atrocities and miseries relished by the author are those suffered by the "Russians".
I am not sure, I just got that impression, and I might be tragically wrong, but you might use this TL to throw a bucket of blood on the wall:
A bucket of Russian blood, thrown by a Lithuanian hand.
just don't savor it that much
Chapter 44: A World of Wonder, A World of Light
Chapter 44: A World of Wonder, A World of Light (1700)
But Europe isn't the only place in the world! What of the other continents and regions of the world? What is happening in the Vespucias, Asia and Africa? After all, sooner or later, the developments in Europe are going to affect them as well. So it is a good idea to catch up.
Map of Asia in the year 1700 AD
At first, the 17th century appeared promising to China, at the time still ruled by the Ming dynasty. Merchants from Portugal and the Netherlands brought silver to the nation at reasonably low prices, which was extremely valuable to the Ming, as they needed precious metal to cover their hyperinflating paper currency. However, the East Asian War between Portugal and the Netherlands weakened the standings of both powers in the region, and trade between Europe and China shrank. In addition, infighting and chaos in Japan at the time meant that their silver supply was also cut off. The prices of this valuable metal skyrocketed, which was disastrous to the peasantry as they had to pay taxes in silver. Ming China faced a number of internal problems as well - the recently conquered Manchu tribes were rebelling, there was growing disconnection between the extremely wealthy upper class and the poor peasants, and the Little Ice Age brought a host of it's own problems as well, spreading famines and epidemics across the land. The Mandate of Heaven was lost. The people were angry, and this anger was used by an upstart rebel from the Shaanxi province, Li Zicheng, who organized a great peasant army and took down the Ming dynasty, first in the northern parts of the country, then in the south, finally founding the Shun Dynasty in 1665. However, not all Chinese were in favor of this new radical government - a large number of Chinese refugees, mostly from Guangdong, led by Zhu Xiuling, the nephew of the last Ming emperor, fled to the islands south of China, settling in the most northern one and founding the nation of Lusang.
The 17th century was a turbulent time not just for China - Japan went through a host of it's own problems, named as the Sengoku period ("warring states period", named after the unrelated period of Chinese history) - the country was fractured into a number of competing states, each led by a warlord. The Emperor was powerless, but even the supposed real head of state, the Shogun, had troubles controlling the chaos. The Europeans traded with all sides in the conflict, providing them with valuable modern technology, especially guns. The 17th century saw the Sengoku period come to an end, however, as Japan had now been fully unified under the Toyotami dynasty. As the country was no longer in chaos, the recovery was swift, and the economy and societal development of the new, unified Japan increased a lot. Japanese silver was now as valuable as ever, and the country profited from this trade.
The before-mentioned East Asian War had considerable impact in South East Asia. Because of how far away the East Indies were from Europe, the two powers were unable to dish the war out by themselves and thus relied on local Asian allies. Ayutthaya sided with the Dutch during the conflict and made the right choice, as it's influence and territory expanded considerably. The Dutch also took over a number of Portuguese colonies in East Asia, like Taiwan and Macao. However, as the dust of the war settled, the Netherlands was unable to maintain the same intensity of trade, the standings of both merchant powers in the region weakened considerably, and over time, they lost many of the territories and ports they acquired. The appearance of the Lusang Chinese nation also shook the balance of the region, and Shun China began to flex it's muscles, slowly rising from the untouched isolated slumber that their predecessor lived through, which also came with sizable impact. Dark times were on the horizon.
India, or more correctly the Mughal Empire, was entering an age of prosperity, however. Throughout the 17th century, this juggernaut between the Far East and the Muslim world had to endure opposition from all sides, facing both Turkish attacks and warfare with the Marathas. The turn to the 18th century is marked in Indian history as the rule of Bahadur Shah II, more commonly known as Bahadur the Enlightened. Under his rule, the Mughal Empire conquered Baluchistan, taking it from the Ottoman Turks, and also defeated the Maratha opposition in the south of the nation, in Deccan. However, he is most commonly known as a very educated and down-to-earth ruler, he was especially interested in the education of his subjects and developing a more closely interlinked economy and society, in what is now known as the "Era of Light", or the "Indian Enlightenment". The previously severed trade ties with the West were restored, and Bahadur II grew interested in the sciences and technology that the Europeans brought, hoping to encourage to development of these fields within his empire. Because of the hostility for the Ottomans, India became the primary trade link between the West and the Far East, and profited from it in many ways.
Populated with powerful, wealthy, but often arrogant empires, Asia has become the dream world for the Europeans, a world of wonders and treasure - but trade with it was difficult. The Vespucias were blocking the way through the west, while travelling east meant either going through the Ottoman Empire or around Africa. And the Asians themselves were hardly interested in a fair exchange - outside of a few funny technological quirks or precious, precious gold or silver, there wasn't much that the Europeans could bring that would satisfy, say, the Shun or Mughal emperor. Something had to be done about this.
Map of North Vespucia in the year 1700 AD
More and more colonists are arriving to the Dutch prime colony in Vespucias - New Netherland. Situated along the continent's east coast, this colony provides a multitude of resources from naval supplies to grain and metals for the motherland, and the denizens of the Old World see these virgin territories as a land of opportunity. Unlike most other European colonies in the Americas, New Netherland is self-governing, and the great range of nationalities and religions composing it have created a very free and pro-democratic environment. This self-governance is not viewed highly by the leaders of the Netherlands Free State itself, which would much rather prefer increasing central power in the colony to maximize profit. Time will tell if this brewing conflict will result in anything meaningful.
What the Netherlands had to actually worry about, however, was a new competitor in the colonization of the continent. The Kingdom of Sweden, uncomfortably squished between the Germans and Lithuania, began to look west, and in the middle of the 17th century, they began establishing colonies on Saint Brendan's Land, primarily using them as whaling bases and trade outposts. Soon enough, this colony of New Sweden began expanding to the continent nearby - the coasts of Flevoland. While their efforts have so far been weak and the number of Swedish settlers is very low, not to mention the conflicts with the nearby native Vespucian tribes, it's still an important event for the future of the region.
While the Dutch and Swedish colonies in North Vespucia are growing, Spain's mainland colony - Luisiana - has so far been stagnant. The flow of settlers has been very slow, and numerous border settlements had to be abandoned. There are two reasons for this trend. First are the troubles at home. In the end of the 17th century, Spain was embroiled in a long colonial war with France which drained the nation's treasury and weakened their standing in the region. The second reason was the hostile relations with the local Vespucian tribes. While the Dutch and Swedish settlers preferred trading with the locals (sometimes accidentally spreading diseases in the process) and maintaining peace, the Spaniards, whose main experience with dealing with locals came from genociding the Carib tribes and fighting long wars in Mesovespucia, answered with force. Numerous border conflicts between Spanish strongholds along the Missisippi and the local native Vespucians were heavy in casualties for both sides.
Luisiana wasn't the only place where Spain conflicted with the locals. The Yucatan peninsula, inhabited by Maya tribes, became a battleground for competition between the Spanish and the Empire of Mejico, a loosely bound Nahua state in Mesovespucia, led by a nativized Spanish dynasty. Both rival powers were slowly expanding into the region and trying to counteract each other's influence within it. Because of the difficult climate and the dense vegetation, however, it being a jungle and all, this push was slow.
North Vespucia was still seen by Europeans as useless forested and frozen land, but all of that was about to change. It didn't seem to have many resources, but it was perfect for settler colonialism, and as the Amsterdam System locked the borders of Europe, this was where the Europeans could release their pent up energy. For now.
Map of South Vespucia in the year 1700 AD
The primary indigenous South Vespucian state, the Inca, carried on to the 18th century more or less peacefully. The close trade links with Portugal via the Silver Road came off as a double-edged sword. On one hand, the Incas had their first experience in acquiring and using modern technology, and their standing in the wide world increased. The army was modernized and began to adopt locally manufactured gunpowder weapons, and much like the Mughal emperors, the Sapa Incas were interested in cultural exchange with the Westerners (although, in their case, it was the Easterners). However, the trade also brought diseases which the people had no resistance to, and in the 1630s, a massive smallpox epidemic ravaged the land. By the 18th century, the population of some regions still hadn't recovered to the pre-smallpox levels, but the danger of such a massive epidemic has more or less vanished by now. Relations with Portugal remain cordial.
However, while the Portuguese were willing to trade and stay in Manuela, this was not the case with a brand new power in the continent - the French. After acquiring New France in the Franco-Spanish War, they were rapidly starting to exert influence on the northern parts of South Vespucia, and they almost certainly had heard of the riches that the Incas held. A few French exploration missions along the Andes resulted in skirmishes with Inca units, the relations between the two nations soured. As the reigning Director of the Estates-General Pierre Fatio, the closest person to the head of state of France, did not even hide his intentions to carve out a French colonial empire in South Vespucia, the Incas might have to prepare their weapons for a battle for survival.
And this wasn't even th only case of troubling news for the Tawantinsuyu. The Kingdom of Britannia, an isolated Puritan absolute monarchy on the edge of Europe, was now growing interest in joining the race for South Vespucia. King Edward VII agreed to launch a number of exploration missions led by Admiral James Kent towards the southern part of the continent, past Manuela, to determine the feasibility of setting up an English colony there. The British had a number of ambitious plans - redirect the course of the Silver Road, perhaps conquer up to the Andes, and hopefully hold the monopoly in trade between the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans due to their position right at the straits. Time will tell if these ambitions are feasible.
South Vespucia might end up as a new battlefield for the European powers, but this time, they are not alone. The Incas are willing to defend their empire and their way of life by any means necessary, and who knows - perhaps that will is going to shatter, or maybe the Europeans will discover that gnawing on a cat's tail is not a good idea.
Map of Africa in the year 1700 AD
For almost two centuries, the Ottoman Empire had been a dominant force in North Africa. While Egypt and Tripolitania were under it's direct control, the Maghreb - Morocco, Tunis and Algeria - were dominated by it as vassals and protectorates. Morocco was the last to fall to Ottoman domination, doing so in 1648, during a succession crisis. The Turks simply moved in troops to oust a rebellious prince and install a friendly government, and at the same time, the Portuguese annexed a portion of the nation's coast. What the Ottomans were interested in was employing the Berbers as corsairs and pirates for raiding Christian ships and cities for loot and especially slaves, a very valuable commodity.
Isolated from others by the world's largest hot desert and two wide oceans, Sub-Saharan Africa entered the 18th century without feeling much impact from the events going on elsewhere. Only the southern parts of the continent were affected by European colonialism, especially the southernmost tip, where the Portuguese established the Colony of the Cape. It was a very valuable colony with a strategic position, and the Dutch tried to conquer it during the East Asian War, but their efforts were unsuccessful. Other powers were also looking forward to establishing bases on the coast of Africa, but this massive, densely forested and deadly continent, filled with malaria spreading insects and hostile native empires, seemed uninviting.
Map of Europe in the year 1700 AD
A new era is dawning across Europe. The light of knowledge and reason is bound to touch upon all, from the wealthiest noble to the poorest serf. New ideas, ideologies and beliefs are about to arise and reshape the landscape of the planet forever. In this enlightened era, where will Lithuania stand?
Map of the world in the year 1700 AD
Iranian statehood disappeared ATL, devoured by the sunni Ottomans and the Mughals.
Map of Asia in the year 1700 AD
What about Shii problem, is it a powder keg ready to explode or else?
What about great Iranian culture? I don't think that the Ottomans would appreciate it too much; but the Mughals were fans of Iranian literature with long standing, and the Mughals seem more religious tolerable at the moment.
Did the Iranian scholars flock to India?
The lakes being a different colour than the oceans still annoys me, but whatever.
I think you might have underestimated the territory of the Manchus, and labelled too much of it as belonging to 'Siberian Hunter-Gatherer Tribes' but I otherwise don't see any other problems. I do find it somewhat odd that Mejico has expanded so little - I understand that they're in conflict with Spain and that it is probably way more appealing for them to go South-East than it is to go North, but Spain has been locked up in European conflicts for a while, so it seems that they missed lots of chances to expand.
I think you might have underestimated the territory of the Manchus, and labelled too much of it as belonging to 'Siberian Hunter-Gatherer Tribes' but I otherwise don't see any other problems. I do find it somewhat odd that Mejico has expanded so little - I understand that they're in conflict with Spain and that it is probably way more appealing for them to go South-East than it is to go North, but Spain has been locked up in European conflicts for a while, so it seems that they missed lots of chances to expand.