The ships that never where (sources)

This is a thread where I plan on keeping links to websites and articles for a book I plan on writing on never built warships of various nations. I also plan on posting some drafts, ideas and even posting images here if I can find them.
The book will deal with the warships that were ordered, designed or even partially built by various countries from probably the 1860s until the second world war, giving their statistics if built, real life history including why they never saw actual service, and a possible service history for the ships if they were built and saw service with the nations.
 
Very interesting site. Among many interesting proposals, I see a 1919 small (510' - 2x2 16" guns) US Battleship design. I've never seen that one before
Lots and lots or really good stuff. Not sure if all of it will make it into the eventual book, alot of the designs seem to be mostly conceptual.
 
I don't know about the KEVII's being a progression to all big gun ships, it just seems a logical move towards bigger guns as those were becoming more dominant due to the technological revolution going on.

As for the all-big-gun proposals by Jacky Fisher, those may well have existed- Wilhelm II was noted as advocating for all-big-gun ships since the 1890's as well. But both of them seem to have been motivated more by impressive-looking specifications than actual combat value- neither of them seem to have addressed the issue of rate of fire, and they certainly don't seem to have anticipated the technological revolution that would let these guns fire faster. Without those key technologies, the all-big-gun ship was a useless concept.

This is best illustrated by the state of the RN in 1895. The best RN big guns right before the first Majestic-class ship entered service were the BL 13.5 inch guns on the Royal Sovereign class. These guns could fire about 1 round every 2 minutes (0.5 rounds/minute) with the latest improvements at that time. Aside from those minor improvements they weren't that much different in design from the first breech-loading guns used in 1882 on the Colossus class ironclads. These guns fired slowly enough that an equal weight of smaller guns would put out more weight of shot per minute than bigger guns- that is 200 tons or so of 6" guns could put out more shells by mass than 200 tons of 13.5" guns each minute- they fired that much faster because they could be hand loaded. They could also be aimed better with shot correction because they fired faster- any director firing or other spotting is useless against a moving target when you can only fire once every 2 minutes. As such, pre-dreadnoughts used the smaller guns more, and this is the main reason why dreadnoughts wouldn't have worked before then- the rate of fire killed both the mass of shells fired per minute and the effective range (due to preventing director firing). Any proposal for an all-big-gun ship back then would have been absurd with these technical details.

The first of the Majestic class ironclads used 12 inch guns in BII turrets with similar designs of rammer as the older ships, but with the "turret-on-barbette" that gave the armor of a turret without the low freeboard and high weight of a conventional turret. It also had the first weight-balanced turrets in RN service so that the turret didn't take so much power to train and more importantly so that the front-heaviness of the guns didn't cause the entire ship to list over when the turrets were pointed to one side. Improvements in the loading systems allowed parts of the hoist and loading cycle to operate at any angle the turrets were trained to. These ships could fire once every 70 seconds (0.85 rounds/minute) until the ready rounds were gone, and then 1 round every 100 seconds (0.6 rounds/minute), a big improvement.

The later Majestic class ships and most of the Canopus class had the BIII and BIV turrets with other improvements to the hoist, stalk (barbette rotating part), and a telescopic rammer to allow the entire loading process to take place without having to train the turret to a specific loading angle. Other improvements also made the hoists faster in operation, allowing these ships to fire 1.33 rounds/minute until the ready rounds were used up.

The last Canopus class ship, HMS Vengeance, had a BV turret which lacked most of the BIII and BIV improvements, but which had a chain rammer allowing the guns to be loaded at any elevation and at any angle which the turret was pointed. This improved the rate of fire dramatically, to 1.9 rounds/minute until the ready rounds were used up.


The Formidable class ships had a new 12"/40 gun with a 40 rather than 35 caliber gun barrel, but more importantly with a new Welin breech block which made opening and closing (and therefore loading) faster. The first 2 ships had BVI turrets similar to the older BIII and BIV turrets, with a specific elevation angle for loading, but the third had a BVII turret which combined the improved chain rammer and its all-elevation loading with all the other improvements to date. This mounting could fire 2 rounds/minute during practice shoots, and is similar to the reloading mechanism used on dreadnoughts ever since. This rate of fire allowed and quickly led to director firing and spotting, with its increased engagement range and accuracy. It also gained superiority in weight of fire over smaller guns, which lost much of their appeal against guns that now could outrange and outshoot it in weight of shot fired per minute.

This revolution in firing technology, which made director firing and thus all-big-gun ships possible, took place in a very short period of time. The first Majestic-class ship, HMS Majestic, was completed in December 1895, so at that time the best gun the RN had was a 13.5 inch gun on an open unarmored barbette mounting which fired once every 2 minutes, sometimes slower. The last Formidable class ship with the first BVII turret, HMS Irresistible, was completed in October 1901, so just 6 years after the Majestic entered service the RN's best gun was a 12-inch gun in an armored turret-on-barbette that fired once every 30 seconds. The rate of fire essentially quadrupled in 6 years. That is the technology that ultimately was key to all-big-gun ships, and the reason why those early big-gun proposals by Fisher and Wilhelm II showed a poor understanding of naval technology at the time. Unless they included plans for all of the breakthroughs just described, they wouldn't be very useful in the 1890's.

If anyone wants I can go through some of the technical details of these innovations (mainly the new rammer designs), but that would be a separate post. This post is long enough as it is.
Another bit of useful trivia that could come in handy for the book.
 
Ships to be included in the book.

Austria-Hungary

Ersatz Monarch class battleship

Project VI battlecruiser

Radetzky class potential all big gun proposal



Brazil

Rio De Janerio battleship

Riachuelo battleship



Chile

Possible acquisition of two Invincible class battlecruisers

Possible repurchase of Eagle into Chilean service as carrier, or reconverted back to battleship



Canada

Possible Canadian QE class ships



Denmark

GW Hovgaard designs for submarines and semi-submersibles

Staerkodder, ex Confederate ironclad

Various coastal defence ship proposals



France

Saint Lious class heavy cruiser

French battlecruiser proposals

Lyon class battleship

Normandie class battleship

Clemenceau Richelieu class battleship

Alsace battleship

Gascoigne battleship

Light cruiser proposals

Duquesne proposed aircraft carrier

Joffre proposed aircraft carrier

Improved Mogador class destroyer

Lamontte picquet scout cruiser

Navire de ligne battlecruiser

Le fier destroyer

Neptune 1937 aircraft carrier

Pianleve aircraft carrier



Germany

Graf Zeppelin

Weser, planned conversion of Seydlitz into carrier

GK series battlecruiser designs

Mackensen battlecruiser

Schlachtkreuzer 1928 proposed design

Schlachtkreuzer O class battlecruiser

Scharnhorst planned 15 inch refit

H series designs

Gurtel Panzer kreuzer armoured cruiser

Cruiser design studies

Final Hipper class cruisers

German planned destroyer classes

U-boat concepts



Great Britain

Malta class carrier

G3 battlecruiser

N3 battleship

Hood refit

Super tiger class (leopard)

Incomparable fisher follie

Small battlecruiser design

Lion class battleship

Dreadnought development

Planned heavy cruiser classes

Planned destroyers

Letter series battleship/battlecruiser designs



Greece

Salamis battleship

French built dreadnought

Samos destroyer



Italy

Conversion of Cariaciolo into aircraft carrier

Cariaciolo battleship

Aquila aircraft carrier

Livorno planned battlecruiser

Ansaldo battleship studies

Cunberti ideal battleship

All Littorio battleships completed

Etna cruiser

Various destroyers

Assorted submarines



Japan

Complete Yamato class

Shinano completed as battleship

Ise full carrier conversion

Amagi completed as carrier instead of Kii

Super yamato

Tosa battleship

Amagi battlecruiser

Kii battleship

Number 13 class battleship

Number series of designs

Treaty battleship studies

Zipang

Various cruiser

Various destroyers

Assorted submarines



Netherlands

Planned battleships

Planned battlecruisers

Celebes java class cruiser

Eendracht planned cruiser

Kijndenin planned cruiser

Gerard callerburg destroyers

Yarrow designed destroyer leader



Russia

Planned carriers

Izmail battlecruiser

Krondstaht battlecruiser

Stalingrad battlecruiser

Moskva cruiser

Gibbs & Cox battlecarrier

Imperator Nikolai battleship

Project M battleship

Sovietsky Soyuz battleship

Admiral Nardimov cruiser

Chapayev cruiser

Svetlana cruiser



Spain

Alorazado cruiser drawings

Various proposed battleships

Various proposed heavy cruisers



Sweden

Pansarkepp ship and monitor proposals



Turkey

Various attempts to purchase battleships



United States

Iowa carrier conversion

Normandie carrier conversion

Lexington class battlecruisers

Montana battleship

South Dakota battleship

14 inch battleship proposals

Tillman designs

1918 large destroyer study


This is a general list. Also keep in mind it was written with just my handwritten paper notes, and my handwriting can be hard to read. That is why some of the ships names are spelled wrong, I just did not feel the need to get them right in a quick initial list. When the book is written then everything will (in a perfect world) be spelled correctly. If you have any other ships you want included mention them. Also some of these designs (tillman, Zipang) are more for kicks than any plans for a ship to be built. Some ships I am on the fence about and may not make it into the book. Generally this paragraph is a disclaimer.
 
Doing some research awhile back I stumbled across information that the AH Radetzky class was initially proposed to be an all big gun ship. Proposal three called for fpur twin turrets with one for, one aft and two wings while proposal four called for a ship with three twin turrets. Likely p4 would have all turrets centerline mounted like the old German Brandenburgs. But I am curious about the layout of the p3, would the turrets be arranged en echelon like the early British and German Battlecruiser, or in a lozenge pattern like the French predreads. I would assume it would be the former, though if the latter was planned it would be interesting... Any information any one has or knows how to get would be appreciated.
 
Austria-Hungary

Radetzky all big gun proposal

1906



Displacement and Dimensions

15,000-20,000 tons. No dimensions given, though likely larger than real life Radetzky class as commissioned.

Capabilities

18-20 knots speed, 4,000 nautical miles at 10 knots, likely triple expansion steam engines providing power to three or four screws.

Armour

Generally similar scheme that that fitted to actual Radetzky class.

Armament

Either 4x4 28 centimetre guns or 3x2 28 centimetre guns with a similar light armament similar to real ship.

Designed

1904-1906

Ordered

Ordered to different design with more traditional armament.

Fate

Battleships scrapped at end of world war one in Italian yards following the Austro-Hungarian defeat in the first world war.

History of ships real life history

Early on in the design phase for what would become the Radetzky class of battleships several designs were submitted with varying gun layouts, including a version armed with an all big gun main battery in a dreadnought style arrangement comprising either one turret mounted either end of the superstructure and two wing turrets along the sides (probably mounted in an en echelon style mounting similar to the British Invincible and German Seydlitz though I could find nothing noting how the main battery would be arranged) or another version armed with three twin turrets arranged along the ships centreline, on a manner similar to the old German Brandenburg class battleships.

Ultimately a more traditional design was approved instead as the estimated cost of the ships, and the requirement for the construction of a new floating drydock to maintain the ships dissuaded the government from approving such a ship, this being despite some effort on the part of Franz Ferdinand (yes that Franz Ferdinand) and the empires naval league to get the design approved.

To the modified design the Radetzky class of three ships was laid down and delivered good service in the first world war where they threatened the French and Italian fleets from making any attempt to bombard the Austrian littoral and occasionally sortied out of harbour to launch a string of abortive attempts to bombard the Italian mainland and engage Italian fleet units. The ships were all scrapped at the end of the war by Italian yards as the nation that had built them realigned into several postwar states.

Alternate history if design entered service

The all big gun design comprising four twin turrets is approved by the Imperial government and construction is completed in 1910, three years before the other chief Mediterranean powers gain their first dreadnought battleships. Possibly due to the cost of constructing such a large battleship only two ships are completed, with the money for the third vessel going to the construction of the new floating drydock to maintain the two other vessels.

The launching of these ships spurs the Italians and the French to speed up their own battleship building programs, though this will have little appreciable effect by the outbreak of the first world war. The ships, along with the four Tegetthoff class dreadnoughts, give the Austro-Hungarian navy a powerful six ship core of dreadnoughts to oppose the handful of French and later Italian ships of the same type.

The added number of all big gun ships provides the Imperial navy the confidence to make repeated sorties against the Italian navy, engaging limited elements of the Regina Marina though they fail to contend with the larger Italian battleships. Managing only to sink a few cruisers and a handful of merchant ships. Coal shortages keep the ships in port for an extended period, but, with the war situation deteriorating rapidly on land the fleet is ordered to sortie out for a Lissa style of battle against the Italians.

This does not go well as the out of practice Austro-Hungarian fleet, suffering from low morale as well by this point, smashes into a combined Anglo-French and Italian force somewhere in the Adriatic and in a brief gunnery duel the Imperial navy looses its cohesion and flees back to port, chased the entire way by the allied fleet, mopping up at least one of the Radetzky class ships in the process.

The battle reignites fervour for the war briefly at home. But the situation the empire faces is dire and the battle merely serves to restore some pride in the fleet before the empire totally collapses. The surviving ship/ships are scrapped in Italy after the end of the war similarly to their real world cousins. It is likely that some elements of the ships, their guns, conning tower, or anchors are preserved in one of the post Imperial nations as a war memorial.


This is a test version of the entries for each ship that will come in the book. Hopefully it is interesting, easy to read and has all the stuff expected for a book. If there are any questions or pointers please let me know.
 
Just a quick update for those still following the thread, I am still working on researching for the book. It is just proceeding slowly through a combination of my internet being spotty the last few months and also research taking longer than I initially thought it would.
 
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