The Ships that Never Sailed

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by The_Most_Happy, Mar 6, 2019.

  1. Emperor Constantine 21st century Monarchist

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Location:
    Florida
    Actually George III was very interested in Hanover and longed to visit his family's hereditary lands. He just never got the opportune moment to do so. As for the marriage itself, the Imperial Diet would play no role in recognizing or not recognizing the marriage. That was entirely up to the Emperor, first Franz I, then Josef II. So its like this: is it in Austria's best interest to have a good relationship with London or not. I think the answer is pretty obvious.
     
    Pegasus, Gokbay and The_Most_Happy like this.
  2. isabella Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2012
    I am not so sure about that... The rules were like that only until Karl VI, then Karl VII (Wittelsbach) had given a lot of concession to the princes (including some about recognition of not-Hochadel weddings)
     
  3. Emperor Constantine 21st century Monarchist

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Location:
    Florida
    Not doubting you or anything but I've never heard of that concession. Do you have a source for it?
     
  4. isabella Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2012
    Pegasus likes this.
  5. Emperor Constantine 21st century Monarchist

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Location:
    Florida
    Well damn. I knew Karl VII was a twit but it seems he can still reach new lows in by book. Although, the linked page does seem to suggest that the British Peers were considered equal in rank to the German high nobility, so George III marrying the daughter of a Duke might be close enough to equal to be considered for recognition of an equal marriage. At the very least, that his marriage is equal in Britain should bring something in terms of consideration of recognition in Germany.
     
    Pegasus and The_Most_Happy like this.
  6. isabella Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2012
    Not really, the rank of the British peers was more like that of the lower/non-Hochadel German nobility than that of the upper one (who are all rulers or will became in future the mediatized families) and I do not know if the high rank of Sarah or the marriage being equal in England will be enough for having her children accepted as heirs in Germany. I fear who George III and Franz I will be quite powerless about this so likely Hannover will be inherited by an ATL son of Edward of York (and Hochadel wife) and George IV will likely had a big resentment against that presumptuous German princes who had deprived him of part of his inheritance.
    The funny part about this is who George II had already in OTL put his grandson in a not easy situation with his political choices (pushing the diplomatic revolution aka alliance between Austria and France, and allying himself with Prussia, alliance abandoned by George III) but had also supported that restriction about weddings recognition so is likely who that will tarnish his image in the eyes of his heirs...
     
    The_Most_Happy likes this.
  7. The_Most_Happy I too can command the wind, sir

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2018
    @isabella @Emperor Constantine thank you guys for this information! I'm very intrigued in playing with this timeline and outcomes - I agree with you, isabella, that George IV is definitely not going to be a happy camper with his Hochadel uncle and wife taking away part of his inheritance. Sarah might even encourage the feeling (being wife of the King of England doesn't quite grant the familial respect that it should, and she's not loving it).
     
  8. The_Most_Happy I too can command the wind, sir

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2018
    And for ships that never sailed,

    Louis, Prince Imperial of France, and Infanta Maria del Pilar of Spain.

    They were supposedly quite smitten with each other and both their mothers supported the match; Louis died before they could be married while on an army campaign in Africa and Maria del Pilar died two months after his death of what was believed to be tuberculous meningitis (popular story is she died of a broken heart pining for him)
     
  9. isabella Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2012
    Wait, I said who George IV (and III) resentment will be against the German princes (aka the Electors who had made impossible for him inheriting Hannover and their heirs, so in this ATL George II’s reputation will be quite bad) not against his York uncle and cousin who have no fault in taking Hannover as they are the only ones able to inherit.
    By the way is pretty unlikely who Sarah, Queen of England, will feel snubbed by the Duchess of York, Edward’s wife when her other two brothers-in-law had married women of much lower rank than hers. At the worst is the Duchess of York who will pass as an insufferable snob (see Alexandra of Denmark and Maria Alexandrovna).
     
  10. Emperor Constantine 21st century Monarchist

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Location:
    Florida
    Another thought after re-reading the last few pages: what happens if history goes similar to OTL and Hanover ends up a Kingdom? If George III isn't crazy he can simply proclaim his marriage equal and make the Prince of Wales the Heir. If he still goes crazy, we could see a mess over whose Regent and how far that Regency power extends. Like could George IV be Regent even if he's not in line for the throne, and if so, could he elevate himself to heir on behalf of his father? IDK the answers but it would be pretty interesting to see!
     
    Pegasus and The_Most_Happy like this.
  11. The_Most_Happy I too can command the wind, sir

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2018
    Ooooooh, that's a really good point... because at the end of the day, I genuinely doubt anyone is really going to go to war over the marriage of the King of Hanover (who happens to be the King of one of the super-powers of the world at the time)
     
  12. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Eleanor of Brittany and Eudes III of Burgundy
     
    The_Most_Happy likes this.
  13. Kerney defender of low probability atls everywhere

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2010
    Location:
    Earth
    Theodosia Burr and Phillip Hamilton.
     
  14. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Charles II and Sophia of Hanover, a power couple if ever there was one
     
    kasumigenx and The_Most_Happy like this.
  15. The_Most_Happy I too can command the wind, sir

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2018
    Marie Luise of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg and Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovich of Russia

    So here's how I see it: Alix of Hesse was bestest buddies with her first cousin, Marie Luise. It would definitely do her good to have someone else in the Romanov court on her side, and it wouldn't be implausible for Alix to arrange for her brother in law to marry her cousin / best friend to keep her there. Marie Luise was strong and healthy and plausibly could have had at least one if not more children with Georgiy, which -if it was a boy-, neatly bypasses that whole Misha and Nataliya debacle.

    They were both considered clever, fun, with a good sense of humor and generally good personalities. I think it could've worked out nicely.
     
  16. Jan Olbracht Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2012
    Location:
    Polska
    Arbella Stuart and Sigismund III Vasa-King of Poland asked for her hand in 1604, although his intentions were not clear. Maybe he looked for ally in England against Charles IX? Or it was just bluff and Sigismund asking for her hand already knew that he'd be refused, thus he'd have justification for marriage with his Habsburg sister-in-law (so he could say to noblemen of PLC: 'you see, I've tried to marry non-Habsburg girl, but I was refused, now I really have no choice other than Archduchess').
     
  17. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Mind if I nick this?
     
    The_Most_Happy likes this.
  18. The_Most_Happy I too can command the wind, sir

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2018
    Not at all - as long as they get some happiness! They both had such sad lives - they deserve a win. Plus Alix might be willing to chill out about Aleksey a tiny bit knowing that after him is her beloved cousin's husband and son in the succession. Maybe one of OTMA can get a pass from the church to marry ML and G's son to really put everyone at ease?
     
  19. isabella Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2012
    First cousins wedding are a big NO for Nicholas but if ML and George had an healthy son early likely nobody (including Alexandra) will worry too much for the succession (and instead will work to find worthy husbands for OTMA)... is also possible who Alexei here will never born as Nicolas and Alexandra will stop to try to have a son earlier
     
    The_Most_Happy likes this.
  20. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    OTMA?
    which means no Rasputin!
     
    The_Most_Happy likes this.