More, please
Congratulation, I really like this timeline and I am looking forward !
Congratulation, I really like this timeline and I am looking forward !
More, please
Congratulation, I really like this timeline and I am looking forward !
*to misquote Douglas Adams. Bonus points to anyone who knows what his next sentence was; it certainly fits in with a few of the events of 1970.
Now I am glad that earlier attempts of mine to comment on the evolving Shuttle program floundered, then foundered. It looks now like the design has largely converged on OTL's.On the 26th of September, at a stage managed event at Cape Canaveral, President Nixon announces that Grumman Aerospace have won the contract to build the Space Shuttle; a reusable spaceplane designed to fly into Earth orbit and back, to land “like a conventional airplane”...
Uh-oh!Tough negotiations over the summer have left Grumman in first place, with a derivative of their original design for an orbiter with separate external fuel tanks. Cost and engineering studies now favour solid rocket motors to boost the vehicle off the pad, before higher performance liquid Hydrogen fuelled engines carry it on to orbit. ...The Thiokol Corporation of Utah will be contracted to upgrade their Titan 3 solid rocket motors for use on the Shuttle.
In addition to developing the SSMEs, developing the ultra-light tankage was another pacing item OTL, but I gather it was ready long before the engines.The external tank will be built by North American Rockwell in California, whose experience of building the Saturn III's LH2 fuelled second stage will be vital in producing this large, lightweight structure.
25 percent more powerful? If so, the TTL Orbiter and tankage would be the same size as OTL.The Grumman-built orbiter will be fully reusable and powered by four improved Rocketdyne J-2 engines, versions of which are currently used to power the upper stages of Saturn rockets. The new J-2R will be more powerful and capable of being flown up to 10 times before replacement or refit.
That's 13 tons payload, correct? Metric tons? And one more crew member than OTL.The orbiter itself will be a delta winged glider, equipped with a 40'x12' payload bay. It will be able to carry up to eight crewmembers in a large pressurised cabin and payloads of up to 30,000lbs inside the bay. The shuttle system will replace the existing “Atlas” and “Delta” launchers, in addition to providing the ability to fly up to 24 manned flights per year (versus the 2 or 3 that NASA currently flies). Development is expected to take 5 years, at a cost of $3.8 billion.
The boosters, tank and engines used by the shuttle will also be used to build the USAF’s "Pegasus" heavy launch vehicle. Versions of this expendable rocket will be capable of lifting payloads between 35-100,000lbs into low Earth orbit and will ultimately replace the “Titan” vehicles currently in use. NASA will have also be able to use the rocket in order to launch spacecraft that will not fit in the shuttle's payload bay. ...
that very good Shuttle a variant of Saturn Shuttle, i had not imagine
Fuel tank based on S-II, four to six Titan III booster and orbiter
would look something like this ?
However a representative of Disaster Area met with the environmentalists, and had them all shot
Along those lines, yes, except I only looked at two or four SRBs.
Its pretty much a miniature version of the real Shuttle, but with adapted 7 segment Titan motors and a quad of "J-2R" motors (essentially the real J-2S, re-engineered for longer life and with nozzle/Mixture Ratio tweaks) on the orbiter.
It's an attempt to make the whole thing cheaper to develop, and keep the USAF sweet with the promise of a new rocket "Pegasus" for their various large payloads. As things stand, they hope to use the same tankage to mount 2 to 4 J-2R engines to build the Pegasus; whether that comes off, we don't know yet.
It's a slightly less adventurous design than the real shuttle. They have more experience via the X-20 program, and (in my opinion) a better prime contractor, so they may pull it off.
Now I am glad that earlier attempts of mine to comment on the evolving Shuttle program floundered, then foundered. It looks now like the design has largely converged on OTL's.
There is still a question lingering from earlier iterations; the matter of scale.
OTL, "Saturn Shuttle" was an early concept as well as here, but note that this TL's maximum Saturn has just 60 percent of the boost thrust of our Saturn V, and this seems to imply the designers of this TL have been thinking smaller. Was this the case, and if so, have various considerations led to a larger design? Will they converge on pretty much the same size as OTL, be constrained to a smaller one, or actually make it bigger?
Consider that in OTL, the STS system actually put about the same mass into orbit (or nearly so, bearing in mind the choice of boost trajectory was made to deliberately avoid the tank winding up in orbit) as the Saturn V could do. This seems amazing when we consider the 15-20 at most ton payload is dwarfed by what Saturn V routinely orbited--but after all not all of that was actual payload either. The Orbiter itself could mass over 100 tons all up all by itself, while the external tank, carried quite as far as the main engines could fire since it was their fuel source, massed another 30--say 140 tons all up once the main engines shut down, leaving the combined craft in a suborbital trajectory with enough energy to qualify for orbital, just the wrong eccentricity to be sustained. At which point the Orbiter would separate and fire its hypergolic orbital maneuvering rockets to stabilize its chosen orbit, leaving the tank to reenter the atmosphere at perigee and burn up. The Orbiter's mass upon achieving stable orbit is quite comparable to an Apollo mission Saturn V's combined Lunar stack (45 tons) and partially depleted Saturn third stage, some 55 tons of propellant plus 12 or so dry mass.
So--is this coincidence, or is this because the Orbiter's early design iterations assumed a Saturn V first stage to boost the tank/Orbiter combo off the pad, and because thrust sufficient to bear later iterations of the design off the pad would be in the same ballpark as a Saturn V, meaning that the program reused the old Apollo program equipment--VAB, crawler, and launch pads, therefore the size was constrained by that equipment--one could not aim for a much larger mass, while using a smaller one would seem like a waste considering the legacy capability lying around?
-It’s a ground lit design. I’ve called it “J-2R”, because it’s a engine that never existed in reality - although there were a few similar proposals. It’s modelled on a J-2S, with an adapted nozzle and the ability to run at a higher mixture ratio (raising mass flow and chamber pressure). The real J-2S wouldn’t have been a bad sea-level engine, as the CC pressure was much higher than the original J-2 (about 1200psi vs 750 IIRC). Raise that a bit and shape the nozzle to ensure no flow separation and you would have an engine safe to start at sea level. Nowhere near as good as the SSME, but then it doesn’t need to be.If it is not coincidence, then for this TL's Shuttle system to match ours in scale, they have to make a 70 percent upgrade of equipment meant to handle a Saturn III, or conversely the overall system has to be somewhat smaller to fit Saturn III legacy stuff.
I'm guessing it falls in the middle. IIRC, OTL Saturn Shuttle was going to use not 4 but 5 J-2S engines, so that implies 80 percent of an OTL Orbiter will emerge as the standard for a Shuttle here.
Uh-oh!
But there is a lot that isn't said yet. A major thing to consider--the design is going ahead with a version of J-2, rather than developing a completely new SSME. One reason for the long delay of OTL developing the SSME is that the J-2 was designed to be air-fired, when a booster stage had already reached an altitude in near-vacuum, and the engine had extremely poor performance at sea level. (I am not sure if the J-2S addressed some of the issues already, as I recall a big problem of the J-2 original version for sea level was that it used a gas generator cycle and it was this gas generator/turbine combo that required vacuum external pressures to operate correctly, whereas the J-2S used chamber tap-off for the turbine driver and was less impacted. But the point is, the J-2 family was designed originally for operation in vacuum, not on the ground). OTL the decision had been made to fire the hydrogen burning engines at launch, in parallel with the solid boosters, and this, in combination with a desire for somewhat higher ISP as well as engines some 5/3 the thrust of J-2S, required the new engine design, which was challenging and much delayed in development.
If the design ITTL is sticking with J-2, it is possible they might be kludged to give some decent performance at sea level I suppose. Certainly there was a plan OTL to develop a plug-nozzle version of J-2 that surely would have had to work at sea level. But it is also suggestive that perhaps the notion of firing the main engines on the ground has not been adopted, and the hydrogen burners will not be lit until the booster stage has burned out--which would have been the case for Saturn Shuttle.
Air firing means a smaller tank for the Shuttle.
-It’s still a parallel arrangement (Michael Van’s illustration above is about right, except for the number of SRBs).It also suggests alternatives to OTL for the stacking. Instead of being attached to the side of the tank, the solids might be grouped under the tank, making two vertical stages. Since it is envisioned that the Air Force will make a flexible cargo launch system with apparently variable numbers of J-2 based engines, instead of making 2 solids the standard for the manned Shuttle, it might be 4--a general rule of one solid per J-2 engine installed. So the manned Shuttle might be a stack of a smaller than OTL tank with the Orbiter riding side-saddle as OTL, but this on top of a cluster of 4 solids. These solids in turn might not have the same proportions as OTL, but be shorter and squatter.
Thus, if a Shuttle of TTL has a 4-engine Orbiter massing say 90 tons all up hanging from a 20-ton (dry) tank atop 4 solids, the smallest Air Force launcher would have a 5 ton dry tank atop a single solid, with a payload of 22.5 tons to orbit! (Or a bit less, if dropping the tank in atmosphere requires the 22.5 ton top load to include auxiliary third stage rockets, hypergol or solid, or conceivably a Centaur type with RL-10 engines and a big hydrogen-oxygen tank to send lighter loads up to geosynch or otherwise into deep space).
Note that this already exceeds the cargo capability of OTL's Shuttle--it is essentially a version of the Saturn IB, with a solid replacing the old ker-lox first stage.
In addition to developing the SSMEs, developing the ultra-light tankage was another pacing item OTL, but I gather it was ready long before the engines.
25 percent more powerful? If so, the TTL Orbiter and tankage would be the same size as OTL.
10 reuses is less ambitious than the SSME's projected reuses. That's good, it means the engines can be ready sooner, especially if there is no attempt to light them on the ground. They should be simpler than SSMEs and lighter, with a superior thrust/weight ratio. And they might prove, in operation, to be reusable more than 10 times with some refurbishment of critical parts.
24 flights a year is less ambitious, I think, than OTL's giddy hopes. But it is still overambitious. This Shuttle might be a bit more realistic in expectations than ours, but it is still being grossly oversold, I fear.
Along with the SSME's and the fuel tank, the third critical pacing item for STS of OTL was the thermal protection system for reentry. Is this TL's Shuttle going to develop thermal tiles similar to OTL, or will NASA's experience with the metal-shielded Dynasoar favor a more robust if heavier metal system? Or some other alternative entirely?
-In the story, they’ve lost faith in the F-1. It’s a bit expensive and has suffered a couple of failures and build issues.Now--suppose that the plan ran backwards. Instead of there being a Shuttle program, with Pegasus being a spin-off and sop to the Air Force, the Air Force had conceived of Pegasus on their own. (Would they? Does it make sense to replace the legacy rockets with a new modular system of solids and J-2 powered upper stages? Why not continue to use the F-1 family of engines instead as well as the J-2? Oh well, just say they do).
- A giant X-20 / X-38? That sounds like the sort of thing the USAF will be wanting for the next 20 years.And then someone noticed, the J-2 engines are kind of expensive and worth recovering. And rather than loading them into a single spaceplane, a system of recovering these engines, in a cluster or individually, from low orbit is developed instead. Give each engine its own recovery capsule, and then assemble launchers from these units. The engines return to Earth after one orbit (or several, if necessary to phase them to suitable ground recovery sites) and are retrieved to the launch assembly site within a day of launch, ready to be examined, refurbished and prepared for reuse immediately.
With such a system in place, a manned spaceplane can be perched on top of the stack, a la DynaSoar, as just another payload. The spaceplane need not be burdened with recovering the engines it needs to reach orbit--and once it does reach orbit, it has no need of those engines, whereas they are useful on the ground. The spaceplane can be much lighter for a given crew size, freeing up mass for equipment or down-mass.
-I think the ditching characteristics of any hypersonic glider and going to be pretty horrible – they’re bad enough for ordinary aircraft. All that stuff about “if the plane lands on water, the lifevest is under your seat" is, err … taking the optimistic view.And a very important difference from OTL would be, that realistic recovery options from an abort are much more feasible than for the 100 ton for 14 ton payload single Orbiter. OTL, the Orbiter could not even be expected to survive a ditching into water--but of course that meant that a launch abort of a Shuttle mission, each one sure to be carrying human crew, would either have to attempt a desperate turn-around (with no engine power to speak of!) back to its Florida launch base, or hope that nothing bad happens until they had enough momentum to reach Africa. This strikes me as insanely irresponsible. And after all, the odds that an Orbiter could separate far and fast enough from the unstoppably burning solids and the fuel tank were pretty grim. A much smaller spaceplane atop the stack instead of on its side ought to have better options, including escaping in the first place, and then surviving a crash-landing on the ocean.
-Yes, far too much was attempted and on too low a budget; but then, that was the only way to sell it, and even then, there was a lot of political convenience involved.Upon consideration, I believe the reason the OTL STS was such a white elephant was the misguided attempt to cram all sorts of diverse functions into one standard Orbiter. The engines had to be there, so did crew accommodations for up to 7 astronauts, and cargo then shoehorned in--no wonder the cargo wound up being less than 1/5 the overall mass put into orbit! There was little need in most cases for cargo to be shepherded into orbit or beyond by a human crew. Decoupling the missions, so that delivery of cargo to orbit and manned missions were separated, and the task of returning the engines to Earth also separated, would have allowed far greater performance, or alternatively much more economical launches of the given payload actually launched OTL.
I don't disagree, however Pegasus is currently lower priority than the shuttle.Give Pegasus the ability to recover the J-2R engines, and Nixon's claim to have been investing wisely in a space future would be vindicated.
What is payload range of this Space Shuttle ?
must be smaller as OTL shuttle
OTL shuttle had two SRB with total thrust of 23600 kN.
But two titan III SRB give in total 10680 kN and four 21360 KN
rough estimate give around 37.5% to 75% Shuttle Payload with Titan III SRB and J-2R engines.
Dec-70 Overseas
NASA leaders meet with the Vice President, who emphasises the desire for "discrete co-operation" with the Selene Project. NASA will develop and build a wide range of experiments for Selene to deploy on the Moon, and American scientists will receive the data from these directly for their own use.
In return, technical assistance will be provided to the Selene Project. This will include training Selene astronauts in the US, access to US built telemetry equipment and NASA computer facilities. Several valuable American developments such as fuel cell regenerator systems and high performance insulation materials will be licenced for use on Selene flights. Although there will be no direct US funding for any part of Selene, the point is made that the US is prepared to trade services "on favourable terms".