The San Juan Pig War

During the Civil War in OTL, the U.S. was able to build a Monitor class vessel in three months. And this was building them from the keel up...the Eads ironclads (conversioins of existing ships) took even less time. The British would not be able to easily duplicate that. And it has to be remembered that Britain will have to build OCEANGOING ironclads...a much more expensive and complicated type of vessel to build...if it wants to fight in American waters (for example, to maintain a blockade). All the U.S. has to build are coastal vessels capable of breaking the blockade. So I think, in the long run, Britain loses the naval war, too.

It must also be remembered that a moniter has 2 guns vs 44 of HMS Warrior and even vs the larger american costal ironclads you are talking about a ship with double their armourment. Also factor in the possibilty of conversions of old 1st rates (>90 guns) even with a reduction to take into acount the armor you are still talking about 60-80 heavy guns.
In order to break a blockade by such vessels the US would need a comparable fleet which they simply cannot build in time, hence the US remains under blockade and its economy dies.

Conclusion: Even if the US manages to take Canada it is still doomed reguardless.

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I don't see this war uniting America for any significant amount of time. It was only a few years prior that we fought Mexico, which while not exactly a paragon of military prowess, it still involved quite a bit of fighting. Yet, after that war, in which we soundly defeated Mexico, the United States quickly regressed into its former ways, bickering over the balance of power.

This war would be much the same, but I've changed my opinion a little bit. I don't see the United States getting too much of Canada thru force. I see them getting Toronto and lower Ontario, and the British might be only too happy to hand over troublesome Quebec at the treaty. Manitoba and the Western provinces might go and they might not. Depends on what means what to whom. The maritime provinces and New Brunswick will remain in British hands. Why, because the British will be much better able to defend and supply a place like Nova Scotia from their major port at Halifax, and thus, the United States is more likely to face tougher and stiffer opposition from veteran British troops fresh out of India and the Crimea. By this time, Britain will cut its losses, give over lower Canada and Quebec and whatever else the US is willing to buy, and bide their time for revenge. They have the money and ability to wait it out. Any keen observer in America or in Europe would know that a major crisis is going to be facing the US in the near future. Maybe not war, but close.

Given such a major victory, like that over Mexico, the US public is highly unlikely to pay any attention to how Britain is feeling about the whole situation. Thus, Southern and Northern politicans restart the argument over free vs. slave. Canada, as abolition haven, will inevitably go free, upsetting the balance dramatically, and if this is not enough, then the election of any abolitionist president in the 1864 election, will likely start the ACW. That would be Britain's opportunity to strike.
 
I don't think the north/south divide would go away just entirely just because of a war with Britain. On the surface you may get the leading figures shaking hands and promising to fight the common enemy but underneath you will still have divisions in the country.
America built ironclads at this time and Britain did not purely because Britain did not need to, it felt that the American ironclads were no threat to them in the slightest. If they had been we would have quickly set about building twice as many, twice as well as we did when the French started their ironclad building.
The way Britain worked meant that it did not have all that many commitments around the world at all, its garrisons were suprisingly small.
Also bare in mind how rich Britain is, even if our own forces aren't sufficient (which I doubt) we could buy in some mercenaries.

Who gives a damn about video games? Tell me, as a British citizen of this time period, what I have to gain from some far-flung shanangans with a country we have already fought one pointless war with (1812). Seems to me too that a US invasion of Canada would be strategically pointless. Britain using Canada as some kind of staging point for an invasion of the US risks pissing off Canadians way more than they had to. As you say they are getting dominion status.

I doubt many people will know of the war of 1812, this is before everyone went to school and that war was scuh a minor side show of the Napoleonic wars I doubt many people will know or care about it.
All British citizens would see is that the Americans are invading Canada who have said they want nothing to do with the Americans before and it is the duty of Britain to defend its citizens.
 
Leej said:
I don't think the north/south divide would go away just entirely just because of a war with Britain. On the surface you may get the leading figures shaking hands and promising to fight the common enemy but underneath you will still have divisions in the country.
America built ironclads at this time and Britain did not purely because Britain did not need to, it felt that the American ironclads were no threat to them in the slightest. If they had been we would have quickly set about building twice as many, twice as well as we did when the French started their ironclad building.
The way Britain worked meant that it did not have all that many commitments around the world at all, its garrisons were suprisingly small.
Also bare in mind how rich Britain is, even if our own forces aren't sufficient (which I doubt) we could buy in some mercenaries.

.

I agree entirely

I have said this before, but maybe not in this thread

Britain raised three types of armies for conflict, the Crimean War being a perfect example in this

1. Its regular forces, recalling all members on fallow etc, raising new units as funded by parliament
2. Volunteer forces - usually raised overseas and paid for by Britain
3. Foreign allies - Britain was adept at paying for foreign countries to mobilise and equip their soldiers, Piedmont-Sardinia in the Crimean War, almost Sweden and potentially Spain in the same conflict, and in WW1 Portugal

Grey Wolf
 
I'm reviving this topic.

Seward strikes me as a more likely GOP nominee in 1864. Perhaps, for butterflies's sake, the would-be competent generals of the Confederacy in our timeline die in the Canadian War, making any southern rebellion futile :p
 
Seward strikes me as a more likely GOP nominee in 1864. Perhaps, for butterflies's sake, the would-be competent generals of the Confederacy in our timeline die in the Canadian War, making any southern rebellion futile :p

Given the mess the US would be in would that be significant? I doubt that Britain would want major land gains other than possibly regaining the area north of the Snake River. Unless the US persisted in prolonging the conflict enough to get Britain angry. However likely to be a lot of disorder and internal conflict over what went wrong. Not to mention all the economic damage the US suffered from the war and blockage. The conflict is going to generate so many butterflies that the future of N America is going to be drastically alterned.

Steve
 
Given the mess the US would be in would that be significant? I doubt that Britain would want major land gains other than possibly regaining the area north of the Snake River. Unless the US persisted in prolonging the conflict enough to get Britain angry. However likely to be a lot of disorder and internal conflict over what went wrong. Not to mention all the economic damage the US suffered from the war and blockage. The conflict is going to generate so many butterflies that the future of N America is going to be drastically alterned.

Steve

Win or lose, you seem quite right. This would alter the history of the continent noticeably.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
It must also be remembered that a moniter has 2 guns vs 44 of HMS Warrior and even vs the larger american costal ironclads you are talking about a ship with double their armourment. Also factor in the possibilty of conversions of old 1st rates (>90 guns) even with a reduction to take into acount the armor you are still talking about 60-80 heavy guns.

Why are you even mentioning ironclads? In 1859 the British only have their 5 Meteor class (inc Aetna, a distinct subclass) and 3 Thunderbolts. Warrior and Black Prince aren't available until well in 1861.

Also, the US getting a Monitor is doubtful. Sure it's possible, but it's the best part of a year down the road (Monitor had a lot of long lead items bought before laying down).

No, any 1859 naval war is between wooden vessels, although of course wood is actually armour, and this is the whole point about the shift to shell guns, the 3 foot of white oak a steam battleship was armoured with could stop even 32pdrs at reasonable ranges (just look at how well the RN and MN vessels held up against Russian forts in 54-6). The 11" Dahlgren shell gun was designed to put a shell through 3 ft of white oak at 1,000 yds, that was the design criterea.

(If interested, Dahlgren wrote a book about this in ISTR 1857)
 
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