The Russian Empire in the American Revolutionary War

Thande

Donor
I came across this little factoid while reading a book on the 18th century. For a bit of background: at this point the generally accepted approach to the laws of war at sea was that neutrals were still allowed to trade with whoever they wanted and should not be harrassed by either of the two sides in a war while trading with both. However, because Britain had an advantage in sea power from the mid-18th century on, we started trying to impose an alternative interpretation of the law which said that neutrals could carry on with any trade they had been conducting before war broke out, but if they started transporting additional stuff from a power hostile to Britain after war broke out, their ships were fair game to be stopped and confiscated. This had already led to tensions during the Seven Years' War when the Dutch took over the sugar trade from the French colonies to France and the Royal Navy kept stopping their ships.

Now, the best known impact of this during OTL's American Revolutionary War was that the Dutch continued to trade with the rebel American colonies and Britain's opposition to this led to the Fourth Anglo-Dutch War as an additional 'front' of the ARW. However, I found out that there is a flip side to this. In 1780 the Spanish stopped two Russian ships that were running food supplies to the besieged British garrison in Gibraltar, using the same interpretation of the law. Catherine the Great was furious at the humiliation of her subjects and wanted to declare war on Spain. She was eventually talked out of it by one of her ministers and instead just issued a declaration on behalf of the Armed Neutrality of the North condemning all attacks on neutral shipping.

What if Catherine hadn't been talked out of it, and Russia declared war on Spain in 1780?

The effect on the outcome of the ARW is probably minimal, but I think it would have interestingly significant effects on how the war is viewed. OTL, Tsarist Russia was the USA's most reliable (and ironic) ally in the 19th century, which could conceivably be prevented by this. Also, many British officers refused to fight the Americans in the early part of the ARW because they believed the American cause was just, but joined the war after the Americans welcomed the despotic French and Spanish as allies, now seeing the rebels as hypocrites. The presence of despotic Russia on the British side might give them pause, and lend fuel to American propaganda efforts.

Finally I could see this having an effect on the Nootka Sound dispute. Russia might try to stake a claim to California as part of the war and Britain might drop her own claims in order to encourage the Russians to join the war.

Thoughts?
 
Possible, but...

This is somewhat plausible. I don't think Russia would have a major impact on the war (as you said). I also think the rest of history would play out the same, or close to it. Also remember, Russia went to war with SPAIN, they did nothing against the Americans and I find it unlikely that America would have gone to war with ANOTHER power when they had Britan to deal with. Also, even if this incident did damage American-Russian relations it wouldn't effect the world wars that much, you have to remember that the US and Russia joined the wars in order to protect themselves (or their allies) NOT because of any great love for each other.

Even then, I think the Spanish-Russian War would turn into another unimportant little "incident." It wouldn't become a major enough war for it to damage relations for long.

TMS
 
This would definitely change the history of North America by quite a bit.

Spain had claims on Alaska OTL, based on the fact that the Treaty of Tordesillas supposedly gave them that land. With Russia in the fight, Spain grabs the area with little resistance. Furthermore, because the Pacific is now a front in the war, Spain would also demand an end to British claims on the West coast as well, pre-empting the Nootka Crisis.

Because Spain is on the winning side, it will get the entire West Coast of North America. What it does with it is the question. Someone should do a TL.
 
Did't Britain try to hire Russian mercenaries before turning to Hessians in OTL, though? Now suddenly they're on the same side....and the British have troopships.
 
I think that Spain could mop up Russia's colonies in the Pacific, as I don't think Russia had a significant Pacific Naval presence at that time. The fact that Spain gets the West Coast in this scenario will have interesting repercussions when America wants more Pacific Coast, a la Manifest Destiny. An earlier Spanish-American War?
 
If Russia puts up enough of a fight that it distracts Spain and takes some pressure off Britain it could have some interesting effects.
At the peace treaty, Britain was sick of the war and gave up several areas that it didn't need to out of a lack of morale. If they had an ally, who was actually somewhat helpful they may be a little firmer in the final deal.
So Britain could demand to keep a part of the Old Northwest Territory, maybe part of Maine, and possibly more of the southern shore of the St. Lawrence. These three places were basically given away, and left most of the US negotiators amazed at their luck.
Give Britain a bigger morale boost and these areas would be on the table.
 
Russia was, along with Sweden, Prussia and few other minor states (perhaps Austria as well but I can't remember), a member of the League of Armed Neutrality. The League was formed as a protest against Britain's policies even more than those of France and Spain. While it is possible for Spain to blunder into a war with Russia in 1780, I don't think it will have much bearing on the greater war surrounding the American Revolution. Besides by 1780 Russia's entrance into the war was too little too late to bring British victory in the colonies.

If Britain is able to work out a some kind of temporary treaty with Russia that ties that nation to the larger war (doubtful given Russian anger with Britain's highhandedness) than there could be some complications during post-war negotiations. The US will have no beef with Russia and be even more unwilling to wait for Spain to be happy before signing a treaty with Britain. Russia may take some part in the negotiations in Paris but most likely just as an observer. It is possible that Russia's entry scares Franklin and Adams a bit as it looks like the larger war could drag on much longer, thus prompting them to accept the initial peace proposals (which would ironically give the US the Ottawa peninsula).

Finally there is the remote possibility that Russia's entry into the war widens the war even further if France feels the need to declare war on Russia. I'm not sure what France's treaty obligations to Spain were at that time but it is possible that France will feel the need to support its ally. From there France may turn to Sweden or Prussia offering something in return for their participation in the war. It would have to be something pretty good since neither of those nations was ready for a major war at that time.

Benjamin
 
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I think that Spain could mop up Russia's colonies in the Pacific, as I don't think Russia had a significant Pacific Naval presence at that time. The fact that Spain gets the West Coast in this scenario will have interesting repercussions when America wants more Pacific Coast, a la Manifest Destiny. An earlier Spanish-American War?

Spain had the west coast in our world too. A la Mexico?
 
Spain had the west coast in our world too. A la Mexico?

Spain didn't control Alaska and the Oregon Territory in our time line, while here it certainly would.

I cannot imagine there being enough people in Alaska and Oregon to fight for indepoendence so Spain may actually get to keep this. Furthermore, because Mexico couldn't project force into the California territory, Spain could keep this too after Mexico's war of independence thanks to their greater northern Pacific presense.

A Spanish-American War in this TL would result in the gains of the Mexican Cession, Alaska Purchase, and "54'40'' or Fight!" all in one, as well as denying Britain/Canada a west coast, helping the US get the Canadian interior. Ameriwank-ho!
 
Russia was, along with Sweden, Prussia and few other minor states (perhaps Austria as well but I can't remember), a member of the League of Armed Neutrality. The League was formed as a protest against Britain's policies even more than those of France and Spain. While it is possible for Spain to blunder into a war with Russia in 1780, I don't think it will have much bearing on the greater war surrounding the American Revolution. Besides by 1780 Russia's entrance into the war was too little too late to bring British victory in the colonies.

If Britain is able to work out a some kind of temporary treaty with Russia that ties that nation to the larger war (doubtful given Russian anger with Britain's highhandedness) than there could be some complications during post-war negotiations. The US will have no beef with Russia and be even more unwilling to wait for Spain to be happy before signing a treaty with Britain. Russia may take some part in the negotiations in Paris but most likely just as an observer. It is possible that Russia's entry scares Franklin and Adams a bit as it looks like the larger war could drag on much longer, thus prompting them to accept the initial peace proposals (which would ironically give the US the Ottawa peninsula).

Finally there is the remote possibility that Russia's entry into the war widens the war even further if France feels the need to declare war on Russia. I'm not sure what France's treaty obligations to Spain were at that time but it is possible that France will feel the need to support its ally. From there France may turn to Sweden or Prussia offering something in return for their participation in the war. It would have to be something pretty good since neither of those nations was ready for a major war at that time.

Benjamin

The League was started in 1780, though, so this dispute may have happened before the League was formed. Either way, diplomatic bungling may still be able to start the war.
 
It's hard to see how this would alter the outcome of the ARM, but serious impact in the Pacific is possible. As already noted, Spain could occupy the PNW and Alaska without much trouble. (Did Russia even have a Pacific fleet of any importance at the time?)

Thande said:
Also, many British officers refused to fight the Americans in the early part of the ARW because they believed the American cause was just,

That is fascinating and not something I had heard before. Do you have a cite for that? Would like to know more.
 
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