The Roosevelt Plan for Germany

At the Yalta Conference, Roosevelt proposed splitting Germany into 5 nations (plus Austria regaining independence for a total of 6). So what would have been the political impact if it had actually been divided that way? Which countries would have been communist and which free after the war? I would assume Prussia and Saxony as communist and Bavaria, Hesse and Hannover as free, but I suppose I could be wrong. Also, what ultimately would have been the fate of the two international zones? Here's a map, but the labels are in German:

Roosevelt Plan for Germany.png
 
The Southern International Zone would likely have gone to France, while the Northern one would probably be incorporated into Hannover.

Unless they were being prevented at some point I think the Northern ones would unify, I'm not sure if Bavaria would though.
 
I think that Hesse, Hanover, and Bavaria would be democratic, and Prussia and Saxony would be communist. I don't think they would unite because either a treaty, or each nation trying to be the dominate one in that union. It be interesting to see how cold war would been have affected this. Also I think it may lead to conflict (hot, or cold) between each states as each try to be the dominate power in Germany
 
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Any nation named Prussia inevitably can solo powerful nations on its border. So Poland and Russia don't really have a chance ;0
 

Eurofed

Banned
The Southern International Zone would likely have gone to France, while the Northern one would probably be incorporated into Hannover.

Unless they were being prevented at some point I think the Northern ones would unify, I'm not sure if Bavaria would though.

Bavaria could be part of the Northern reunification or it might make a separate unity with Austria, but for that matter, this plan could also easily lead to the general reunification of Germany and Austria. :D
 
They considered Hungary part of Germany?

I think it would lead to a similar Unification like the unification in the 1800's, maybe more peaceful. Increased nationalism leads to a crazy dictator unifying Germany and starting World War III, I call it the Germanic Cycle.


Step 1.

Huge War started over stupid reason. War lost.

Step 2.

Harsh Punishments instated, possible dismemberment of state, collapse of economy.

Step 3.

Radicals begin to take power, fighting each other.

Step 4.

The Victor becomes leader of state and vows to return Germany to glory.

Step 5.

Appeasement, Appeasement, Appeasement, Nation reunified and not satisfied.

Step 6.

Another war starts. Germany looses war.

Step 7.

Repeat all previous steps.
 
I could see it turning out okay. The ones under control of the West get the carrot and the ones in the Soviet sphere get the de-Nazification stick, as OTL. Prussia, despite continuing to exist, gets its much-deserved deflating. Eventual reunification into a Bundesrepublik possible (or, if we're being fanciful, some kind of latter-day HRE constitutional monarchy, though naturally much less likely). Unification, if it happens not as fast as die Wende.

Added bonus: Austria will find it more difficult to ignore its past because there is no "Germany" for them to pretend they were victims of. Also makes Grossdeutschland more likely, which is nice for people like me that still hold grudges against Hitler for, among many many other things, poisoning that idea.

I don't like how these states swallow up Thuringia, Baden, Schleswig-Holstein, etc. etc. Perhaps these Roosevelt Germanies can federate themselves to restore some of the history.

The main thing that makes this unlikely is opposition from Stalin, who won't want a Prussia this big. Perhaps an iron curtain farther east makes it possible.

Also, that ain't German, it's Dutch.
 

Eurofed

Banned
I could see it turning out okay. The ones under control of the West get the carrot and the ones in the Soviet sphere get the de-Nazification stick, as OTL. Prussia, despite continuing to exist, gets its much-deserved deflating. Eventual reunification into a Bundesrepublik possible (or, if we're being fanciful, some kind of latter-day HRE constitutional monarchy, though naturally much less likely). Unification, if it happens not as fast as die Wende.

Agreed.

Added bonus: Austria will find it more difficult to ignore its past because there is no "Germany" for them to pretend they were victims of. Also makes Grossdeutschland more likely, which is nice for people like me that still hold grudges against Hitler for, among many many other things, poisoning that idea.

I absolutely share your feelings here. Independent Austria (like Canada) annoys me on a map. :D:cool:

I don't like how these states swallow up Thuringia, Baden, Schleswig-Holstein, etc. etc. Perhaps these Roosevelt Germanies can federate themselves to restore some of the history.

Well, if something so little as Austria or Belgium managed to turn themselves into federal states, certainly the germanies can do it as well.

The main thing that makes this unlikely is opposition from Stalin, who won't want a Prussia this big. Perhaps an iron curtain farther east makes it possible.

Stalin won't really care, as long as Prussia and Saxony are under his control. But I agree that an Iron Curtain on the Germanies' border makes it more likely.

Possible PoD: FDR dies before Yalta. Truman agrees with Churchill to let the Anglo-American forces to go as far east as they can, they enter Berlin, Prague, and Vienna first, and the Anglo-Americans get the upper round to enforce the settlement of Grossdeutchsland they prefer. So Poland gets no German territory besides Soviet-occupied East Prussia, and Austria is kept a part of the Germanies' settlement.
 
Also, that ain't German, it's Dutch.

My apologies. All I really saw was "not English" and made an assumption based on the subject matter.

Possible PoD: FDR dies before Yalta. Truman agrees with Churchill to let the Anglo-American forces to go as far east as they can, they enter Berlin, Prague, and Vienna first, and the Anglo-Americans get the upper round to enforce the settlement of Grossdeutchsland they prefer. So Poland gets no German territory besides Soviet-occupied East Prussia, and Austria is kept a part of the Germanies' settlement.

Sounds interesting. One quibble. Truman became VP like two weeks before Yalta. So there's not a really big window for FDR to die. FDR would have to die within a few weeks of his innauguration. If FDR dies before November 1944 then we get President Henry Wallace, with all of the dystopian implications that comes with him. If he dies between November and January you get a rather interesting situation where a VP who was dropped from the ticket gets to serve as President for a few weeks before the guy who was supposed to replace him as VP is instead innaugurated to replace him as President.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Sounds interesting. One quibble. Truman became VP like two weeks before Yalta. So there's not a really big window for FDR to die. FDR would have to die within a few weeks of his innauguration. If FDR dies before November 1944 then we get President Henry Wallace, with all of the dystopian implications that comes with him. If he dies between November and January you get a rather interesting situation where a VP who was dropped from the ticket gets to serve as President for a few weeks before the guy who was supposed to replace him as VP is instead innaugurated to replace him as President.

Well, perhaps FDR dies in late January, Wallace takes over as POTUS but is kept under tight leash by conservative Democrats that threaten to release his skeletons in the closet (his Communist sympathies and bizarre religious beliefs), then Truman takes over in January. Or alternatively a double PoD to get the world rid of Wallace before November 1944. Perhaps a scandal occurs and he is forced to resign earlier. FDR's death causes Yalta to be delayed a bit, to March or April.

Or maybe we may go for a slightly earlier PoD. Wallace never becomes VP in 1940 (again, his skeletons in the closet surface before the 1940 democratic convention), another conservative Republican becomes VP, and FDR dies in November-December 1944. The new President gives the go-forward order to Patton and Montgomery, and the A-A meet the Red Army on the Oder and the Danube. Germany, Austria, and Czechia are occupied by the Western Allies, the new President is no sympathizer of Stalin, and in Yalta and Potsdam enforces the notion that the settlement of Germany, like the one of Italy, is a Western business.
 
I think it would be more interesting if the POD was at Yalta. Just whack off those parts of Prussia that went to Poland OTL and there you go.

Edit: Probably also see more "Prussia is Phony russia" jokes.
 
Yeah, the W.Allies had Patton, put him on a battlefield and he'll win it for you. They should have marched on Berlin, then, to MOSCOW!
 

Valdemar II

Banned
At the Yalta Conference, Roosevelt proposed splitting Germany into 5 nations (plus Austria regaining independence for a total of 6). So what would have been the political impact if it had actually been divided that way? Which countries would have been communist and which free after the war? I would assume Prussia and Saxony as communist and Bavaria, Hesse and Hannover as free, but I suppose I could be wrong. Also, what ultimately would have been the fate of the two international zones? Here's a map, but the labels are in German:

Sorry that's Dutch not German.
 
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