The Rock has fallen

Rockingham

Banned
WI the French and Spanish had managed to capture Gibraltar during the ARW?

Well, Minorca falls after that of course..... though I doubt it much changes the rest of the war in the colonies.....

In all likelihood, it would be Spain who benefits most from the war in the short term-like OTL, neither Spain nor Britain would want France to make many gains..... but in the long term, I'd forsee this being very much to Frances advantage.
 
During the peace negaotiations Britian trades Florida to get The rock back.

Course Britian knows that the Rock is scaleable [how they got it in the first place] So keeps watch against Climbers.
Remembre the BMC considers-Taking the Rock- the same way the USMC considers -The Halls of Montuzama-, or the -Shores of Tripoli-
 
Why's Gibraltar so important to the British? It's just a port town on the entrance to the Mediterranean. Britain's main waterways are the Atlantic Ocean, the Indian Ocean, and their related seas. Why would they go to incredible lengths to get a wee rocky village back?
 
The reason is that there is a general feeling by the British that they need to be able to access all waterways all the time. This feeling means that they must control all choke points. The Med is important because British power is seaborne and therefore the Med was the quickest way to reach various places, like Italy, North Africa, Egypt, the Ottoman Empire, and eventually counter Russian ambitions. If the Rock falls the British no longer have access to the Med and therefore enemies (like the French or later the Russians) would have free reign to create naval power and gain naval supremacy unmolested by British seapower.
 
Unless they could take an new place in a region like, say, Morocco, which is just across the way. Easier to sack from the original holders, and easier to maintain and keep safely British, in comparison to Gibraltar, which is surrounded 24/7 by Spain, which is often an enemy.
Obviously, they could force Spain to hand Gibraltar back. But, if that doesn't work, they can grab a town on the opposite coast which works just as well as the Rock.
 

Rockingham

Banned
The reason is that there is a general feeling by the British that they need to be able to access all waterways all the time. This feeling means that they must control all choke points. The Med is important because British power is seaborne and therefore the Med was the quickest way to reach various places, like Italy, North Africa, Egypt, the Ottoman Empire, and eventually counter Russian ambitions. If the Rock falls the British no longer have access to the Med and therefore enemies (like the French or later the Russians) would have free reign to create naval power and gain naval supremacy unmolested by British seapower.
Russia wouldnt be any enemy in this scenario...at least not before Central Asian ezpansion(assuming that, and Russian Med ambitions, aren't butterflied away).

In any case, Spain may become alligned with Britian in this scenario- assuming British interest in Spanish colonies doesn't prevent that.


During the peace negaotiations Britian trades Florida to get The rock back.

Course Britian knows that the Rock is scaleable [how they got it in the first place] So keeps watch against Climbers.
Remembre the BMC considers-Taking the Rock- the same way the USMC considers -The Halls of Montuzama-, or the -Shores of Tripoli-
Would Spain accept a horrible deal like that though? Gibraltar was far more neccesary for their naval security, and also ambitions in the West Mediterranean. I'd think they'd require a great deal more then that.

Unless they could take an new place in a region like, say, Morocco, which is just across the way. Easier to sack from the original holders, and easier to maintain and keep safely British, in comparison to Gibraltar, which is surrounded 24/7 by Spain, which is often an enemy.
Obviously, they could force Spain to hand Gibraltar back. But, if that doesn't work, they can grab a town on the opposite coast which works just as well as the Rock.
Firstly, hadn't Spain been repeatedly trying that since the Reconqista? All in all, making very few gains, despite the the fact they were far closer and had a larger army then the British. By this point, they had taken all the most defendable regions....
and might well interven in Morroco's favour against British attempts to take Morrocan territory(yes, they were historical enemies, but history is is full of examples of old rivals momentarily allying against a common threat), or else just sieze the said territory before the Brits could.
 
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During the peace negaotiations Britian trades Florida to get The rock back.

Then there isn't agreement because Gibraltar was one of the main aims of Spain in that war and the site of the longest battle in the European Front during the ACW.

Which leads to Spain gaining West Florida, Minorca, Gibraltar and the Bahamas (as the negotiations about trading territories are de facto broken by the British) while the British either retain or give East Florida to the USA. That possibly means earlier Seminole Wars and can butterfly the War of 1812 if they keep the USA distracted securing their own territory.
 
Then there isn't agreement because Gibraltar was one of the main aims of Spain in that war and the site of the longest battle in the European Front during the ACW.

Was there a European front other than Gibraltar in the ARW? [Which is what I presume your referring to rather than the ACW]

Which leads to Spain gaining West Florida, Minorca, Gibraltar and the Bahamas (as the negotiations about trading territories are de facto broken by the British) while the British either retain or give East Florida to the USA. That possibly means earlier Seminole Wars and can butterfly the War of 1812 if they keep the USA distracted securing their own territory.

:confused::confused::confused: That makes no sense at all!
 
Was there a European front other than Gibraltar in the ARW? [Which is what I presume your referring to rather than the ACW]

My bad yes, the ARW.:eek:

FYI, there was fighting in the English Channel, and in the Mediterranean. Minorca was in British hands at the start of the war but fell to a Franco-Spaish invasion. What I mean is that there wasn't too much fight outside of Gibraltar, so nobody would renounce to Gibraltar (the main prize) if it was conquered.

:confused::confused::confused: That makes no sense at all!
Brief resume:

- Minorca and Gibraltar passed to Britain in 1713.
- Florida was given to Britain in 1763 in exchange of her leaving Manila and Havana, which were occupied during the SYW.
- Now, in the ARW...

1) The Spanish army in Louisiana drove the British out of West Florida in 1781.
2) A combined Franco-Spanish force took Minorca in 1782.
3) The Havana Squadron invaded and occupied the Bahamas in 1782 too.
4) In TTL, the siege of Gibraltar was successful and The Rock fell either in late 1782 or in early 1783, when the bloodiest assaults happened.

So, at the peace table, Spain has now all the mentioned territories back except East Florida. She, like in OTL, will ask East Florida back in exchange of returning the Bahamas to the British. But according to your previous scenario, the British response will be something like Fuck the Bahamas! We want Gibraltar back (in exchange of East Florida)!

In that case, Spain will say Shut Up instead of giving Gibraltar back. As a result, the war can continue or most likely be settled along the currently occupied territories. That means the Spanish don't get back East Florida, and the British don't get back the Bahamas. So, as a result, by 1800 the Bahamas are Spanish and East Florida either British (if they want to keep it) or American (if the British leave it like the rest of the loyalist south).

It's clearer now?
 
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Rockingham

Banned
So, at the peace table, Spain has now all the mentioned territories back except East Florida. She, like in OTL, will ask East Florida back in exchange of returning the Bahamas to the British. But according to your previous scenario, the British response will be something like Fuck the Bahamas! We want Gibraltar back (in exchange of East Florida)!

In that case, Spain will say Shut Up instead of giving Gibraltar back. As a result, the war can continue or most likely be settled along the currently occupied territories. That means the Spanish don't get back East Florida, and the British don't get back the Bahamas. So, as a result, by 1800 the Bahamas are Spanish and East Florida either British (if they want to keep it) or American (if the British leave it like the rest of the loyalist south).

Not neccesarily. A brief summary of the situation-

-Spain will not withdraw from Gibraltar
-The US will take Florida if France or Spain doesn't.
-Spain will withdraw from the Bahamas in exchange for Florida.

So Britian has the option of either taking the Bahams back, or losing both the Bahamas and Gibraltar.
 
Was there a European front other than Gibraltar in the ARW? [Which is what I presume your referring to rather than the ACW]

My bad yes, the ARW.:eek:

FYI, there was fighting in the English Channel, and in the Mediterranean. Minorca was in British hands at the start of the war but fell to a Franco-Spaish invasion. What I mean is that there wasn't too much fight outside of Gibraltar, so nobody would renounce to Gibraltar (the main prize) if it was conquered.

Ah understand you now. Knew there was naval combat but thought it sounded like you were saying there was other ground fighting in Europe. A case of crossed wires.:)

Brief resume:

- Minorca and Gibraltar passed to Britain in 1713.
- Florida was given to Britain in 1763 in exchange of her leaving Manila and Havana, which were occupied during the SYW.
- Now, in the ARW...

1) The Spanish army in Louisiana drove the British out of West Florida in 1781.
2) A combined Franco-Spanish force took Minorca in 1782.
3) The Havana Squadron invaded and occupied the Bahamas in 1782 too.
4) In TTL, the siege of Gibraltar was successful and The Rock fell either in late 1782 or in early 1783, when the bloodiest assaults happened.

So, at the peace table, Spain has now all the mentioned territories back except East Florida. She, like in OTL, will ask East Florida back in exchange of returning the Bahamas to the British. But according to your previous scenario, the British response will be something like Fuck the Bahamas! We want Gibraltar back (in exchange of East Florida)!

In that case, Spain will say Shut Up instead of giving Gibraltar back. As a result, the war can continue or most likely be settled along the currently occupied territories. That means the Spanish don't get back East Florida, and the British don't get back the Bahamas. So, as a result, by 1800 the Bahamas are Spanish and East Florida either British (if they want to keep it) or American (if the British leave it like the rest of the loyalist south).

It's clearer now?

Also clarifies. Just puzzled by the odd wording in your earlier post "as the negotiations about trading territories are de facto broken by the British". See what you mean now in that you think Britain will want the rock back and Spain will break negotiations on that. Hadn't realised that the Spanish had been so successful during the conflict at that point. [I.e. occupation of W Florida and the Bahamas].

Steve
 

Rockingham

Banned
The US would be pretty certain to take Florida if Britian kept it though, wouldn't they? Its an important sea route, especially to a nation like the US with no territory in the Carribean to serve as a route into the Gulf of Mexico. Futhermore, it would force the US to face a 2 front war in any future war with the British, and would serve as handy naval base for the British to blockade the US.

The only reason they didn't take it earlier OTL, apart from the fact that Spain was an ally, was that it wasn't as significant a threat in Spanish hands as it was in British hands.
 
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