Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
WI the French and Spanish had managed to capture Gibraltar during the ARW?
WI the French and Spanish had managed to capture Gibraltar during the ARW?
Russia wouldnt be any enemy in this scenario...at least not before Central Asian ezpansion(assuming that, and Russian Med ambitions, aren't butterflied away).The reason is that there is a general feeling by the British that they need to be able to access all waterways all the time. This feeling means that they must control all choke points. The Med is important because British power is seaborne and therefore the Med was the quickest way to reach various places, like Italy, North Africa, Egypt, the Ottoman Empire, and eventually counter Russian ambitions. If the Rock falls the British no longer have access to the Med and therefore enemies (like the French or later the Russians) would have free reign to create naval power and gain naval supremacy unmolested by British seapower.
Would Spain accept a horrible deal like that though? Gibraltar was far more neccesary for their naval security, and also ambitions in the West Mediterranean. I'd think they'd require a great deal more then that.During the peace negaotiations Britian trades Florida to get The rock back.
Course Britian knows that the Rock is scaleable [how they got it in the first place] So keeps watch against Climbers.
Remembre the BMC considers-Taking the Rock- the same way the USMC considers -The Halls of Montuzama-, or the -Shores of Tripoli-
Firstly, hadn't Spain been repeatedly trying that since the Reconqista? All in all, making very few gains, despite the the fact they were far closer and had a larger army then the British. By this point, they had taken all the most defendable regions....Unless they could take an new place in a region like, say, Morocco, which is just across the way. Easier to sack from the original holders, and easier to maintain and keep safely British, in comparison to Gibraltar, which is surrounded 24/7 by Spain, which is often an enemy.
Obviously, they could force Spain to hand Gibraltar back. But, if that doesn't work, they can grab a town on the opposite coast which works just as well as the Rock.
During the peace negaotiations Britian trades Florida to get The rock back.
Then there isn't agreement because Gibraltar was one of the main aims of Spain in that war and the site of the longest battle in the European Front during the ACW.
Which leads to Spain gaining West Florida, Minorca, Gibraltar and the Bahamas (as the negotiations about trading territories are de facto broken by the British) while the British either retain or give East Florida to the USA. That possibly means earlier Seminole Wars and can butterfly the War of 1812 if they keep the USA distracted securing their own territory.
Was there a European front other than Gibraltar in the ARW? [Which is what I presume your referring to rather than the ACW]
My bad yes, the ARW.
FYI, there was fighting in the English Channel, and in the Mediterranean. Minorca was in British hands at the start of the war but fell to a Franco-Spaish invasion. What I mean is that there wasn't too much fight outside of Gibraltar, so nobody would renounce to Gibraltar (the main prize) if it was conquered.
Brief resume:That makes no sense at all!
- Minorca and Gibraltar passed to Britain in 1713.
- Florida was given to Britain in 1763 in exchange of her leaving Manila and Havana, which were occupied during the SYW.
- Now, in the ARW...
1) The Spanish army in Louisiana drove the British out of West Florida in 1781.
2) A combined Franco-Spanish force took Minorca in 1782.
3) The Havana Squadron invaded and occupied the Bahamas in 1782 too.
4) In TTL, the siege of Gibraltar was successful and The Rock fell either in late 1782 or in early 1783, when the bloodiest assaults happened.
So, at the peace table, Spain has now all the mentioned territories back except East Florida. She, like in OTL, will ask East Florida back in exchange of returning the Bahamas to the British. But according to your previous scenario, the British response will be something like Fuck the Bahamas! We want Gibraltar back (in exchange of East Florida)!
In that case, Spain will say Shut Up instead of giving Gibraltar back. As a result, the war can continue or most likely be settled along the currently occupied territories. That means the Spanish don't get back East Florida, and the British don't get back the Bahamas. So, as a result, by 1800 the Bahamas are Spanish and East Florida either British (if they want to keep it) or American (if the British leave it like the rest of the loyalist south).
It's clearer now?
So, at the peace table, Spain has now all the mentioned territories back except East Florida. She, like in OTL, will ask East Florida back in exchange of returning the Bahamas to the British. But according to your previous scenario, the British response will be something like Fuck the Bahamas! We want Gibraltar back (in exchange of East Florida)!
In that case, Spain will say Shut Up instead of giving Gibraltar back. As a result, the war can continue or most likely be settled along the currently occupied territories. That means the Spanish don't get back East Florida, and the British don't get back the Bahamas. So, as a result, by 1800 the Bahamas are Spanish and East Florida either British (if they want to keep it) or American (if the British leave it like the rest of the loyalist south).
Not neccesarily. A brief summary of the situation-
-Spain will not withdraw from Gibraltar
-The US will take Florida if France or Spain doesn't.
-Spain will withdraw from the Bahamas in exchange for Florida.
So Britian has the option of either taking the Bahams back, or losing both the Bahamas and Gibraltar.
Was there a European front other than Gibraltar in the ARW? [Which is what I presume your referring to rather than the ACW]
My bad yes, the ARW.
FYI, there was fighting in the English Channel, and in the Mediterranean. Minorca was in British hands at the start of the war but fell to a Franco-Spaish invasion. What I mean is that there wasn't too much fight outside of Gibraltar, so nobody would renounce to Gibraltar (the main prize) if it was conquered.
Ah understand you now. Knew there was naval combat but thought it sounded like you were saying there was other ground fighting in Europe. A case of crossed wires.
Brief resume:
- Minorca and Gibraltar passed to Britain in 1713.
- Florida was given to Britain in 1763 in exchange of her leaving Manila and Havana, which were occupied during the SYW.
- Now, in the ARW...
1) The Spanish army in Louisiana drove the British out of West Florida in 1781.
2) A combined Franco-Spanish force took Minorca in 1782.
3) The Havana Squadron invaded and occupied the Bahamas in 1782 too.
4) In TTL, the siege of Gibraltar was successful and The Rock fell either in late 1782 or in early 1783, when the bloodiest assaults happened.
So, at the peace table, Spain has now all the mentioned territories back except East Florida. She, like in OTL, will ask East Florida back in exchange of returning the Bahamas to the British. But according to your previous scenario, the British response will be something like Fuck the Bahamas! We want Gibraltar back (in exchange of East Florida)!
In that case, Spain will say Shut Up instead of giving Gibraltar back. As a result, the war can continue or most likely be settled along the currently occupied territories. That means the Spanish don't get back East Florida, and the British don't get back the Bahamas. So, as a result, by 1800 the Bahamas are Spanish and East Florida either British (if they want to keep it) or American (if the British leave it like the rest of the loyalist south).
It's clearer now?
Also clarifies. Just puzzled by the odd wording in your earlier post "as the negotiations about trading territories are de facto broken by the British". See what you mean now in that you think Britain will want the rock back and Spain will break negotiations on that. Hadn't realised that the Spanish had been so successful during the conflict at that point. [I.e. occupation of W Florida and the Bahamas].
Steve