The Rise of the South

Now now, Jake is just someone who needs to learn AltHist better. He's not a troll or anything, just a CSA-Wanker by heart.

Hell, you should look at my earlier stuff. Or current stuff. No big improvement within a short time.
 

Hendryk

Banned
Now now, Jake is just someone who needs to learn AltHist better. He's not a troll or anything, just a CSA-Wanker by heart.
Self-styled "neo-Confederates" like him are a dime a dozen, and one guesses they congregate on AH boards precisely in order to settle scores with history as it really happened. That in itself is no big deal, but Jake is also obviously a political extremist for whom FDR's New Deal and Communism are interchangeable, public education is brainwashing, and all you need to get through an economic crisis is self-reliance. Basically, he's another Tom Kalbfus, and one of those was already one too many.
 
I don't know, being a libertarian I think FDR's handling of the Great Depression was utter crap. Not only was it unconstitutional but it also killed the earlier move towards recovery, gave the federal government too much power, created a slew of wasteful government programs and took money from private investors, thus shifting money around within the economy instead of actually growing the economy. The move towards war, subsequent WWII and then the fact that only the USA remained as an undamaged industrial nation brought an end to the Great Depression not FDR's free market killing policies.

That being said, Jake's timeline is utter crap with a hardy mix off ludicrous.

Benjamin
 
Self-styled "neo-Confederates" like him are a dime a dozen, and one guesses they congregate on AH boards precisely in order to settle scores with history as it really happened. That in itself is no big deal, but Jake is also obviously a political extremist for whom FDR's New Deal and Communism are interchangeable, public education is brainwashing, and all you need to get through an economic crisis is self-reliance. Basically, he's another Tom Kalbfus, and one of those was already one too many.

ah, but nothing brought this board so together as that lunatic:D.
 
The Confederate States of America: A brief history, of a brief nation.
The Southern States would ironically win their independence from the very nation, the United States, had broken off from. After the disaster of the Trent Affair, Great Britain had recognized the Confederacy and declared war on the Union. France would follow in this recognition, but otherwise Emperor Napoleon III remained neutral; offering to broker peace between the US and Britain-CS alliance. However this reliance on the UK would prove to undermine the short existence of this nation…
 
Does Turtledove stage the climactic Civil War battle in TL-191 at Gettysburg - I can't remember, as I haven't read HFR in a while? I thought it was just somewhere in Maryland?

And sure, the entire timeline is awful and cliched.

That bit is actually stolen from one of the essay's in the What If books. IIRC the conduct of the battle is more or less as Jake has it, though in some more detail (though I haven't read it in a while, so I could be mistaken).

In turtledove's universe, the decisive battle takes place at a place called camp hill, which is probably fairly close to Gettysburg, given what we know about the campaign. Course of history is more or less the same as in the What if essay (though Lee occupies Philadelphia). The rest of Jake's timeline seem to be a retelling of TL-191, with an obvious ideological bias.
 

Jake Vektor

Banned
Two Issues

1: Lee once said that slavery was "a moral and political evil." He sincerely hoped that one day no more blacks would be in bondage.
2: William Z. Foster was (or is, the USSR still exists in my TL) a big admirer of Joseph Stalin. If Foster ever got into a postition of power, I have no doubt that he would seek to imitate his idol. Just look up William Z. Foster on Wikipedia. It explicitly says that Foster admired Stalin's methods and worked to marginalize any CPUSA members who criticized them. I have no doubt that Foster would have become a Stalin Mini-Me if he ever got into office.
 
1: Lee once said that slavery was "a moral and political evil." He sincerely hoped that one day no more blacks would be in bondage.
2: William Z. Foster was (or is, the USSR still exists in my TL) a big admirer of Joseph Stalin. If Foster ever got into a postition of power, I have no doubt that he would seek to imitate his idol. Just look up William Z. Foster on Wikipedia. It explicitly says that Foster admired Stalin's methods and worked to marginalize any CPUSA members who criticized them. I have no doubt that Foster would have become a Stalin Mini-Me if he ever got into office.

http://radgeek.com/gt/2005/01/03/robert_e/

Your TL sucks, dude. All the Wikipedia in the world can't save it.
 
1: Lee once said that slavery was "a moral and political evil." He sincerely hoped that one day no more blacks would be in bondage.

The myth of Lee as the enlightened and reluctant defender of his home is an old one. It is also bollocks. That quote is cherry-picked from a letter of Lee's where, in the same breath, he argues that Slavery was beneficial to african-americans, that slavery is worse for the owners than the chattel, and that slavery is beneficial for the slaves.

the version of Robert E Lee that you describe is a mythical figure, like Bigfoot or the loch Ness Monster, that has wormed its way into the popular imagination. It bears little connection to reality.

I strongly recommend that you read Burton's link.

Actually, don't read it. Digest it.

2: William Z. Foster was (or is, the USSR still exists in my TL) a big admirer of Joseph Stalin. If Foster ever got into a postition of power, I have no doubt that he would seek to imitate his idol. Just look up William Z. Foster on Wikipedia. It explicitly says that Foster admired Stalin's methods and worked to marginalize any CPUSA members who criticized them. I have no doubt that Foster would have become a Stalin Mini-Me if he ever got into office.

Here we go again.

I'm going to work on the assumption that you did not read my last mention of this subject, which raises two questions: where do I start, and why do I bother? Since the answer to the second one is more intangible...

For starters, what stalin? In this timeline, there is no guarantee that Stalin will rise to power as he did, or that he will ever become a revolutionary. Odds are, he is never even born. You ended the Civil War a decade and a half before his birth. That is more than enough time for the butterfly effect you apply so selectively to kill him off.

Same goes for Foster, but in Spades. As I have already explained, you have given us no reason to assume that the communist party is a going concern in TTL's united states, much less a Stalinist bogeyman and on the verge of power. You just, well, waved a magic wand, and viola! A caricature in the White House.
 

Art

Monthly Donor
This is nonsense!!

Why should a victorious South industrialize? The way whole plantation system was set up precluded it, and that is why the South was so backward in comparison to any other region. In fact, only a few regions in the South even produced GRAIN in any quantity, namely the Shenadoah Valley and the trans-Mississippi states. I see you have New Mexico Territory taken by the Confederacy. WHY? The only attempt to take the region failed miserably. Besides why would the Cofederacy even want the area?
 

Jake Vektor

Banned
Stuff that should have been in part 3

A little something to clarify part 3. Most of it has to do with the Communists.
1922-The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is formed out of the old Russian Empire.
1924-Joseph Stalin takes the reigns of power in the USSR and begins a purging of political opponents.
1932-While William Z. Foster clinches the US presidency, the CPUSA gains a majority in both houses of Congress, ensuring that Foster has enough legislative support to do whatever he wants.
1934-Foster, with the help of the Secret Service, has an attempt on his life staged at the Fourth of July celebrations. After the "assassination attempt" is "thwarted," Foster declares martial law, claiming that "reactionaries" (read, free market advocates) were behind the incident. In a speech delievered in Baltimore, Foster declares that "We must protect this nation from the forces of reaction and greed to move it into a future of social equality and economic justice."
1936-In the US presidential election, no other political parties besides the CPUSA are allowed to field candidates. Independents are allowed to run. However, low voter turnout caused by general cynicism about the election ensures that the majority of those who do vote cast their votes for Foster, guaranteeing him an easy re-election.
1937-Foster officially changes the name of the USA to the Federal People's Republic of America.
 
Why do you justify all the ridiculous elements of this timeline with "It's the butterfly effect!" and then have the exact same people doing the exact same things they did in OTL seventy years after the POD?
 
A little something to clarify part 3. Most of it has to do with the Communists.
1922-The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is formed out of the old Russian Empire.
1924-Joseph Stalin takes the reigns of power in the USSR and begins a purging of political opponents.
1932-While William Z. Foster clinches the US presidency, the CPUSA gains a majority in both houses of Congress, ensuring that Foster has enough legislative support to do whatever he wants.
1934-Foster, with the help of the Secret Service, has an attempt on his life staged at the Fourth of July celebrations. After the "assassination attempt" is "thwarted," Foster declares martial law, claiming that "reactionaries" (read, free market advocates) were behind the incident. In a speech delievered in Baltimore, Foster declares that "We must protect this nation from the forces of reaction and greed to move it into a future of social equality and economic justice."
1936-In the US presidential election, no other political parties besides the CPUSA are allowed to field candidates. Independents are allowed to run. However, low voter turnout caused by general cynicism about the election ensures that the majority of those who do vote cast their votes for Foster, guaranteeing him an easy re-election.
1937-Foster officially changes the name of the USA to the Federal People's Republic of America.

I'll give you credit where credit is due, Jake; you seem to have listened to some of our criticism at last and you're attempting to develop plausible reasons for what happens in your TL. Be forewarned, people may still claim this sequence of events is implausible, but it's a definite improvement over having things happen just because you want them to happen that way without giving any semi-plausible justification for it.
 
The depression

I don't know, being a libertarian I think FDR's handling of the Great Depression was utter crap. Not only was it unconstitutional but it also killed the earlier move towards recovery, gave the federal government too much power, created a slew of wasteful government programs and took money from private investors, thus shifting money around within the economy instead of actually growing the economy. The move towards war, subsequent WWII and then the fact that only the USA remained as an undamaged industrial nation brought an end to the Great Depression not FDR's free market killing policies.

That being said, Jake's timeline is utter crap with a hardy mix off ludicrous.

Benjamin
At least you're not a Confed. But I know this much: all 4 of my

greatgrandfathers and both my grandfathers would have had NO work

from 1933 to 1937 were it not for wasteful government programs like

the TVA, WPA, CCC, and others. The problem was much of the critical

elements of the New Deal were short-circuited by 5 semi-senile old men

on the Supreme Court (Sound familiar?):mad: No sooner did FDR take

office then he began a series of programs that turned things around so

the GDP began a limited recovery. Hoover's strategy was to do nothing

except keep the banks afloat. The result? The day before FDR was sworn

in, the last banks closed their doors.:rolleyes:

FDR's economics were not perfect. The economic upswing really got

going in 1936 so he instituted some tax increases to help balance the

budget. BIG mistake:eek: It caused an economic downturn that by 1938

put us almost back to 1935 levels. And at this point YES the military

buildup in Europe began pulling us out of the doldrums for good. And

I see you didn't mention his infamous court-packing bill of 1937,

but then the Supreme Court's behavior by this time had become so

infamous itself that history has considered the affair to be a push,

sordid and shameful all around:p:p:p And it did force some timely

vote switches and retirements on the Court that included the legalization

of unions!:D:p After reading your entry again I have to conclude,

sadly, that it is the entry of someone who has watched nothing but

Fox News for the last decade:p:p:p

I wish to say I'm sorry to the AH community for this, but when I see

rank ignorance on a scale like this about a man and a time where we

COULD have seen the commies or socialists become major political

forces in this country it sickens me:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
 

Hendryk

Banned
1932-While William Z. Foster clinches the US presidency, the CPUSA gains a majority in both houses of Congress, ensuring that Foster has enough legislative support to do whatever he wants.
1934-Foster, with the help of the Secret Service, has an attempt on his life staged at the Fourth of July celebrations. After the "assassination attempt" is "thwarted," Foster declares martial law, claiming that "reactionaries" (read, free market advocates) were behind the incident. In a speech delievered in Baltimore, Foster declares that "We must protect this nation from the forces of reaction and greed to move it into a future of social equality and economic justice."
1936-In the US presidential election, no other political parties besides the CPUSA are allowed to field candidates. Independents are allowed to run. However, low voter turnout caused by general cynicism about the election ensures that the majority of those who do vote cast their votes for Foster, guaranteeing him an easy re-election.
1937-Foster officially changes the name of the USA to the Federal People's Republic of America.
Name one instance of the Communists turning a country into a one-party state after winning elections the regular way, barring foreign occupation and civil war.

1867-1873-The Lee administration focuses mainly on preparing Confederate society for the emerging generation of free blacks. A constitutional amendment is passed in 1869 banning discrimination on ethnic grounds. (...)

1873-James Longstreet is elected president of the CSA. He follows a policy of industrialization to build what he calls the "New South." His primary purpose is to speed up the phasing out of slavery by breaking the power of the plantations. (...)

By this year in the CSA, the last generation of slaves has died out. The Confederate government declares the official end of slavery. Without intensification of racial animus caused by Reconstruction IOTL, blacks are able to successfully integrate into the mainstream of Confederate society.
I love how this self-style "proud neo-Confederate" is able to handwave away the very foundations of Southern society, namely the plantation aristocracy and the disenfranchisement of the Black population.
 

Jake Vektor

Banned
After Much Stalling...

we finally get to WORLD WAR II!
1939-Charles de Gaulle demands that Italy cede Provence and Corsica to France. Italy, counting on Anglo-German support, refuses Germany's demands. Outraged, de Gaulle launches a "Guerre de Foudre" (French for "lightning war) against Italy on September 1. Britain and Germany declare war on France on September 3. Italy surrenders on September 17. Benito Mussolini is installed as the head of a puppet state and the Italian royal family is sent into exile.
At the same time, Poland demands Slovakia from Hungary. When their demands are refused, Poland invades Hungary on October 4. Events in Europe are spiralling out of control.
In Asia, Japan continues its assault on China. Chinese resistance is hampered by interneccine conflict between the Chinese Republican government and insurgent Communists.
1940-With Italy subdued, France turns its sights on Germany proper. France attacks Germany through the Belgian Ardennes. However, the Germans are quickly able to bounce back from the suprise offensive, and a stalemate develops in the Rhineland. Newly elected German chancellor Adolf Hitler vows to crush the French aggressor. What the Germans don't know, however, is that French soldiers are capturing Jewish civillians in the occupied zone and ferrying them back to France to be placed in forced labor camps.
The French Air Force plans an assault on Great Britain to soften it up for invasion. Operation Sealion, as the campaign is named, commences in June. However, the British are resillient and fight back against the would-be invaders. The French lose a great deal of their planes, and de Gaulle is forced to call the invasion off in September.
In eastern Europe, Poland invades Bohemia and Moravia. Germany, distracted by the fight against France, is unable to do anything about the Pole's advances. The Polish army turns its attention to Posen and East Prussia, occupying the Prussian provinces.Romania is the next to fall, with Polish forces pouring over the Hungaro-Romanian border.
Next, Poland turns on the Soviet Union. Poland launches Operation Wladyslaw (named after the 17th century Polish king who claimed the throne of Russia), the invasion of the Soviet Union. At first, the Poles make stunning progress. However, the onset of the Russian winter slows down the Polish offensive.
Meanwhile in Asia, the Japanese launch an invasion of German Indochina.
In North America, the CSA and FPRA both watch world events with apprehension. Confederate president Cordell Hull wants to keep the CSA neutral for as long as possible, though he knows that a threat to the CSA is inevitable. FRPA president William Z. Foster also pledges neutrality, though he denounces the fascist aggression against Poland. The Lend-Lease act allows for aid to the beleaguered USSR.
After years as an informal alliance, France, Poland, and Japan sign the Pact of Steel, pledging to defend one another if one of the signatories is attacked.
1941-Spain joins the war on the Fascist side and invades Portugal..
Japan makes a grave mistake in December, when they attack the CS naval base at Pearl Harbor in Hawaii. The CSA declares war on Japan on December 8. France and Poland declare war on the CSA. The FPRA also declares war on the Fascists, in the name of supporting the USSR.
1942-The CS and US armies have their first confrontation with the French in North Africa. After a series of early setbacks, the US-CS-UK-DE forces win a major victory at El Alamein in November.
In the Pacific, the CS Navy faces off against the Japanese juggernaut. The CS manages to check Japanese expansion at Guadacanal and Midway.
The leaders of France and Poland meet in Paris in June to discuss the "Ultimate Solution"-the extermination of Europe's Jewish population. For the occasion, the Polish have constructed death camps in the Polish heartland. The French have constructed their own death camps in Italy and Belgium. de Gaulle greenlights the operation, and orders that all Jews captured after June 16 be placed in the death camps.
1943-The Allies (as the CS-US-UK-DE bloc has come to be know) make plans to liberate Italy.
Meanwhile, the Soviets defeat Polish forces at Stalingrad and Kursk. The Poles are pushed out of the Ukraine and Romania and sent on the defensive.
In the Pacific, the CS and Japan enter into a stalemate.
The invasion of Italy goes as planned, albeit with great difficulty. Benito Mussolini is captured, tried for treason, and executed.
1944-The Allies invade Spain and topple the pro-France government.
With the bordering nations falling to the Allies, France is forced to withdraw much of its forces from Germany to protect its southern tier. Freed up, the Germans take back Posen and East Prussia from Poland.
The Soviets tear through Belarus on their march towards Poland.
The Japanese empire is beginning to collapse. The Chinese have managed to stop their infighting long enough to put up a strong fight against the Japanese invaders. German Indochina is liberated in November.
1945-Harry Truman is elected president of the CSA. He vows to wrap up the Confederate war effort.
German and Soviet forces both breach the Polish border, meeting up at the Vistula River. Poland is divided into German and Soviet occupation zones. Hungary is occupied by the USSR.
The Allies push into France from Italy and Spain. As the Allied armies near Paris, de Gaulle commits suicide in April. The remainder of the French government surrenders on May 1. France is divided into CS, British, and German occupation zones. Belgium is reconsituted.
As the Fascist countries fall, the Allies discover the extent of the Franco-Polish campaign against the Jews. The camps in France, Belgium, Italy, and Poland are uncovered, along with withered corpses and emaciated surivors. It is estimated that three million Jews were killed by the Fascist regimes. This ruthless purge comes to be known as the "Holocaust."
In the Pacific, the Japanese have been driven back to their home islands. However, they refuse to surrender, and the CSA does not want to risk a costly invasion. So they turn to their trump card-the newly developed atomic bomb*. The Confederate Air Force drops a bomb on the city of Hiroshima on August 18. When the Japanese still do not yield, the CSA drops a second bomb on the city of Nagasaki on August 25. At this point, Japanese emperor Hirohito sees the futility of continuing to fight and pressures the Japanese military to surrender. Japan formally surrenders on September 2. World War II is finally over, but new troubles linger on the horizon...
 

Onyx

Banned
Guys C'mon, he's just a newbie, its also a CSA-Wank

Although there is a large amount of WTFness in here. It's a wank, The Wankiest-Wanks-Of all fucking wanks-of wanks on the CSA. :)
 
Put up or shut up...

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=147320 Hopefully, this will prove to be a more reasonable CSA TL.:eek:
Wanna prove you don't always ConfedWank? Then do a UnionistWank! Jackson falls off his horse and dies the day before First Bull Run, and everything goes to hell in a hand basket for the villainous, traitorous, back-stabbing, disloyal to the core (who stole my strawberries?!), treasonous Rebels!:p This may surprise you Jake, but there are those of us in the North who are still fighting the War of Southern Aggression (You fired first!). After all, it is clear from reading your story thread that it's too bad that we can't send Billy Sherman to YOUR neck of the woods. Again.:D
 
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