The Rise of the South

Jake Vektor

Banned
What? Nobody has anything to say about the North turning Communist? Amidst all of the criticism of my TL since my last post, nobody has mentioned this.
As for France, well, I've read the book "Wilson's War" where the author alleges that if the US had stayed out of WWI and let the Germans win, there would not have been a World War II. This strikes me as absurd. Because of the nationalist currents running through European politics prior to WWI, whoever lost the war would probably be rife with discontent which would be exploited by ultra-nationalists to restart the conflict. In short, no matter who would have won or lost, we would have still had to deal with the losers again later.
 
What? Nobody has anything to say about the North turning Communist? Amidst all of the criticism of my TL since my last post, nobody has mentioned this.
As for France, well, I've read the book "Wilson's War" where the author alleges that if the US had stayed out of WWI and let the Germans win, there would not have been a World War II. This strikes me as absurd. Because of the nationalist currents running through European politics prior to WWI, whoever lost the war would probably be rife with discontent which would be exploited by ultra-nationalists to restart the conflict. In short, no matter who would have won or lost, we would have still had to deal with the losers again later.

OK, I guess I'll take the bait.

Nobody is saying anything about the North turning Communist because it's ridiculous, it's beneath even contempt. You say

1933-President Foster begins his term by outlawing all political parties except the CPUSA. Businesses are nationlized. Any businessmen who refuse to cooperate are summarily executed for treason.

However, you haven't established any reason for this to happen. You seem not to realize that things like that don't just happen out of thin air just because Communists are EEEEEEVIIIIILLLL!!!! Unless other butterflies have drastically changed the way the US gov't works (something you've given us no reason to assume), Foster can't do all of that with the stroke of a pen.

And don't give me some explanation like "well that's exactly what Hitler did, etc." It didn't happen out of thin air in Germany either. Hitler was able to do what he did because of an obscure article in the Weimar constitution (Article 48, if memory serves). If Article 48 was written differently, or excised from the constitution entirely, Hitler's rise to power would have gone much differently if it happened at all. Those are the kinds of details you need to pay attention to if you're going to make it around here...but I'm not telling you anything others haven't told you already...
 
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What? Nobody has anything to say about the North turning Communist? Amidst all of the criticism of my TL since my last post, nobody has mentioned this.

Are you trying to make everybody here think you are a troll? If not, I would be careful, if I were you. You are flirting dangerously close

We've been silent on the issue for the reasons that Desmond Hume outlined: it is a silly proposition, based more or less in your own ingrained political bias. First off, the Communist Party never had a strong following in the United States. now, it is possible to get a stronger communist (or, failing that, socialist) party, but that will require myriad changes that will radically alter the American political scene. And there is no reason to believe that this has happened in your timeline. In fact, there is every reason to believe the opposite; that the american political scene is the same, since so far your timeline has been a reflection of the modern world through an ideological lens (although this might explain why you seem to think that this is reasonable).

And think about this. This is the United States. Probably the most anti-communist western power. One with centuries old, established democratic institutions. one that, at this time (and, arguably, to the present) is generally in the pocket of big business. And they stand by while private property is seized and mass executions are carried out?

Now, I suppose one could argue that this is what happened in Russia and china. But why would an american communist party look anything like a russian or chinese one? The russians, for instance, developed in a practically feudal, less industrialized, authoritarian state. America, in case you haven't noticed, is an industrialized, fairly prosperous democratic republic with a national mindset not exactly conductive to revolution. Hell, look at the OTL communists. With the exception of their own fringe, they rarely if ever advocated anything along the lines of what we saw in, say, russia, at least until the USSR was a power in its own right (and the revolution hidden from sight.)

As for France, well, I've read the book "Wilson's War" where the author alleges that if the US had stayed out of WWI and let the Germans win, there would not have been a World War II. This strikes me as absurd. Because of the nationalist currents running through European politics prior to WWI, whoever lost the war would probably be rife with discontent which would be exploited by ultra-nationalists to restart the conflict. In short, no matter who would have won or lost, we would have still had to deal with the losers again later.

France is going to have revaunchist potential, sure. Personally, I think that a swing to the left and socialism is more likely, but I can see a case for this. But think about this. A germany that achieves its war aims (admittidly a vague concept) is going to more or less neuter France, rendering a future war almost a fait acompli. What I find egregious is that you turn it into a mirror image of Nazi germany. Post-war france in this timeline will not be Weimar germany. Not that hard a concept to grasp. What is particularly galling, and more than a little insulting, is that you turn de Gaulle into a Hitler clone. The man had his flaws, to be sure, but to equate him with the worst ruler of the 20th century (which is no mean feat) is ludicrous and reprehensible.
 
This thread is nice because it reminds me why I'm glad I don't live here in NC anymore. Hi, OP! I'm only about an hour from you, but I'm just visiting!
 
Do you think this is a GMB sock puppet, or has that plague passed?:p

ALSO: Highjack time!

How long would the CS last if Lee had sided with the Union over his home state?

And what was his favorite drink?:D
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Do you think this is a GMB sock puppet, or has that plague passed?:p

ALSO: Highjack time!

How long would the CS last if Lee had sided with the Union over his home state?

And what was his favorite drink?:D

Hrmm. I'm not sure if the war would have necessarily ended quicker. Lee proved time and time again that he was a defensive genius, but pretty lackluster on offensive campaigning, which of course is what the Union needed to win. And since he'll still be going up against tenacious pros like Jackson and Johnston, well...it'll be interesting, that's for sure.

There will probably also be a lot more domestic criticism over a Southerner from a seceeded state leading Union forces, especially if Lee bungles an offensive into Virginia. Unlike McClellan, a popular Northerner who stuck around despite a string of pretty laughable defeats, Lee's gonna be out on his ear the second he messes up.

And you asked a trick question; Lee was a teetotaler! :p
 
This is my idea of an independent Confederate States of America
Part 1: Conception
1862-The Army of Northern Virginia does not lose Special Order 191. General George McClellan's Army of the Northern Potomac does not confront the Confederate forces at Antietam, allowing the Confederates to resupply with captured Union supplies and allow stragglers to catch up. The ANV is able to cross into Pennsylvania. After methodical searching, McClellan's forces find the Confederates at the town of Gettysburg on Oct 8. A fierce battle ensues, and the Confederates slowly gain the upper hand. The battle ends when General McClellan is killed by a stray bullet. The Union soldiers either surrender or flee.
Out west, the Confederates capture the "border states" of Kentucky and Missouri. Back East, General Robert E. Lee captures Maryland. The Union government flees to Philadelphia.

In my mind, your timeline is somewhat realistic for the 1st paragraph and loses itself with #2. This timeline is so ridiculous, it prompted me to register so I could say so after lurking at this forum for about 2 years now. :)
 
In my mind, your timeline is somewhat realistic for the 1st paragraph and loses itself with #2. This timeline is so ridiculous, it prompted me to register so I could say so after lurking at this forum for about 2 years now. :)

It's somewhat realistic, but it's also the exact setup of the most popular work of published AH ever.
 
It's somewhat realistic, but it's also the exact setup of the most popular work of published AH ever.

Does Turtledove stage the climactic Civil War battle in TL-191 at Gettysburg - I can't remember, as I haven't read HFR in a while? I thought it was just somewhere in Maryland?

And sure, the entire timeline is awful and cliched.
 
Does Turtledove stage the climactic Civil War battle in TL-191 at Gettysburg - I can't remember, as I haven't read HFR in a while? I thought it was just somewhere in Maryland?

And sure, the entire timeline is awful and cliched.

Errr...I might have it mixed up with the "191 not intercepted" scenario in What If, now that you mention it.
 
Couldn't agree more...

In my mind, your timeline is somewhat realistic for the 1st paragraph and loses itself with #2. This timeline is so ridiculous, it prompted me to register so I could say so after lurking at this forum for about 2 years now. :)
I get the impression I am reading the work of either a college dropout or
an immature teenager. I AM certain this is the diatribe of an unreconstructed
Confederate who has probably read Turtledove's mind candy Civil War
books thirty times each:rolleyes:

I have never seen anyone so determined to ignore criticism, advice, and
cause and effect. Jake, you wouldn't have any Burnsides, McClellans, Lees,
or esp. CUSTERS in your family tree?:eek:
 
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Hendryk

Banned
In the CSA, President John Nance Garner takes a different approach. He encourages traditional Confederate values of individualism and perseverance as a way to ride out the economic storm. While carrying out Garner's recommendations do not bring an immediate end to the troubles, they do help to ease the impact.
This is my favorite bit so far. "Traditional Confederate values of individualism and perseverance" as a solution to the Great Depression :rolleyes:

Let me guess, you're 15, you live at home with your parents, and your own experience with perseverance and individualism boils down to cleaning your own room.
 
This is my favorite bit so far. "Traditional Confederate values of individualism and perseverance" as a solution to the Great Depression :rolleyes:

Let me guess, you're 15, you live at home with your parents, and your own experience with perseverance and individualism boils down to cleaning your own room.

That was good one Hendryk:)
 
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