The Rise of Dumnonia

HenraldGK

HenraldGK

This is a scenarion that I came up with and would like to share. Please feel free to give your comments.
After the Romans were forced to leave Brittania, a number of client kingdoms were established in their place. One of these was Dumnonia, in the south-west of England, southern Wales and occasionally Brittany - a region which had enjoyed a lot of autonomy under Roman rule. I propose that the Dumnonii seize the period of instability as a chance for rapid expansion, rather than the passive defence of their borders as we saw in OTL. Using Roman tactics and Roman-style weaponry, they could overcome such groups as the Durotriges and control the south coast of England. Before the Roman invasion, Dumnonia had traded with the Mediterranean and mainland Europe, and control of the channel could allow them to do this again - increasing their power and wealth. By reuniting with Brittany, the Dumnonii could move into the power vacuum of north-west France and increase their continental power. The Saxon migrations would be a major concern for the Dumnonii in Britain, but superior tactics and weaponry could have won - or at least pushed the Saxons towards the north, to be dealt with later. A region of such stabilty in this period would see a population explosion, which could cause overcrowding. On the other hand, greater manpower could fuel expansion in Wales, France and central England. Eventually (probably around the 900s) the Dumnonii would have become the dominant power in the British Isles, possibly invading Scotland and/or Ireland. The Danish invasions would have proved another threat, but a less disjointed Britain may have coped better and sheild-wall vs sheild-wall battles would have gone in the favour of the greater numbers. The expansion of the Kingdom of Francia would have been a danger to Dumnonia on the continent, but it's possible that, like Aquitaine and Brittany in OTL, the Dumnonii would have held fast agains the invasion. If they did so, Dumnonia could well have become a third great power in medieval western Europe, after the HRE and France. There are too many factors here to be absolutely exact, I'm just giving the best case scenario for the Dumnonii. Certainly, after this period, it's impossible to know what would have happened - in crusades, the wars for control of Western Europe, colonisation, the Napoleonic wars, the industrial revolution and the chaotic twentieth century. Would Dumnonia be a world power like Britain/ the UK, or would they become a backwater of civilisation? Would Dumnonia be conquered, or would they become a dominant superpower of the twenty-first century? It's nice to try and imagine.
 
The Professor

The Professor

Dumnonia by itself is unlikely to become the dominant power in the British Isles.
Only a united SubRoman Britain would be able to.
However there are scenarios whereby Dumnonia is one of the powers in Britain - whether as a successor to a postRoman Brittonic state or by the lack of a Wessex.
 

Droman

General Notes:

The Romans elected to abandon Britannia because it was indefensible, irrelevant and expensive. There were no client kingdoms set up in their place, only Romano-British rulers and subordinate communities who carved out what they could. Kingdoms did exist yes, but so did what could be called city-states, or tribal confederations.

The use of Roman tactics and weaponry is not a war-winner. The native Britons of the south had been largely pacified by the 400s (as much as they could be with 15,000 men holding them down) and largely didn't have the capacity for any sort of warfare. Auxiliary commanders of friendly tribes were invited south into Wales for a reason, as were the Germanics. The Britons needed time to relearn what peoples like the Picts and Votadini already knew.

It took several hundred years for the Saxons to subdue lands as far as Cornwall, so your reverse expectations of the Britons subduing the Saxons or pushing them off strikes me as unlikely.

"Brittany" is still Armorica at this point, a hotbed of Celtic, but not Brythonic sentiments. It was the push of Germanics across the British Isles that moved Britons to Armorica and Gallaecia. Even expanding into Armorica was the extent of their ability, given the frequent Germanic migrations on the mainland and the preeminence of tribes like the Franki and Gothi.

Population growth of the native Britons of the time was stifled in part by diseases from the East, including but not limited to the Justinian Plague.

Expansions into France is highly unlikely. The French were for over a thousand years the premier power of western Europe and directly controlled the fates of hundreds of thousands of people. We're talking about a period including Clovis, Charlemagne, etc...
 
piratedude

piratedude

Is it possible for one of the legions be left behind (by Constantine 3, say) and then either defect to a local king (presumably for money or good land for when they retire) or have the Legate go "fuck it, imma do my own thing" for a carausius 2.0?
 
HenraldGK

HenraldGK

Thanks for all your comments - some definite food for thought. My scenario is mainly centred on Dumnonia being a group of the jammiest sods of all time, so some of my scenario is, if not impossible, decidedly implausable.
Some really good points from Drumon. I totally understand where you're coming from where France is concerned, but I was imagining a scenario where the old Dumonian lands in Brittany quickly rejoined with those in Britain, and then swiftly began an invasion of some French land - before France's rise to dominance. The "client kingdoms" that I mentioned were not, as you pointed out truly Roman client kingdoms. They were more those who were pushed to the fore in the scrabble to fill the vaccuum once the Romans left. I mainly put "client kingdoms" to over-simplify a little. In terms of the saxons, I did not imagine at all that the dumonians would be subdueing the saxons within Britain, but rather pushing them back long enough for the saxons to decide to settle easier lands, either further north or on the continent.
The Professor - I love the maps, thanks!
Piratedude - I like the sound of such a scenario, it would defintely have sound interesting results - especially for the locals.
Thank you all for taking the time to read and reply. I hope to post a couple of more grounded scenarioes in the days and weeks to come.
 

Droman

HenraldGK said:
Some really good points from Droman. I totally understand where you're coming from where France is concerned, but I was imagining a scenario where the old Dumonian lands in Brittany quickly rejoined with those in Britain, and then swiftly began an invasion of some French land - before France's rise to dominance. In terms of the Saxons, I did not imagine at all that the Dumnonians would be subduing the Saxons within Britain, but rather pushing them back long enough for the Saxons to decide to settle easier lands, either further north or on the continent.
Click to expand...
  1. The timeline doesn't line up. Brittany was Armorica before Cornish and Dumnonian refugees made their way to Armorica and settled across the western half of the peninsula in the 500s. Prior to this, Armorica was an independent Celtic region with independent tribes. If you're looking for cross-continental relations, you should be looking at the Belgae.
  2. The Franks pretty much dominated Gaul from when they got in there. You'd need to empower several factions to balance out Frankish ascension, including the Burgundians, Soissons, Vandals, etc... and they'd be more likely to benefit directly than the Dumnonians.
  3. Britain was by far the easiest land to take, and the Saxons were already going into what became Northumbria as they did Wessex, Sussex and Essex. The Anglians moved into the center, and the Jutes of Kent took what they could. Those were the richest and easiest lands.
Look, I'm on board with a Dumnonia-established "Brittany" replacing OTL England. I've played around with it enough myself. But I think what you need to make this happen is to set in motion a much earlier POD, specifically regarding the conquests made by Rome on the Isles. Allowing Britons to remain independent, urbanize in their own time and maintain a tradition of tribal warfare that is influenced by Rome would do much more to help them defy or integrate the Germanics.

Britain as it was in the 400s just wasn't prepared to take on the Germanic Migrations any more than Byzantine was ready to take on the Arab Migrations in the 700s, especially without the Roman garrisons that had been recalled by the Romans to defend Gaul and Italy. I mean, Italy itself fell to Gothic rule, and that was the historical heartland of the Empire and far more defensible than Britain.
 
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