The Rise and Fall of the Empire of Trebizond

Now ,this is touching the subject from a different angle: The Roman Empire had conquered the Greek world and in fact it managed it badly,as it managed its borders badly and fell to the Ostrogoths in the fifth century.After almost seven centuries you are dealing with a new Empire with its own dynamics and perspective having got rid of its conqueror,body and remnants;why should it linger on a dead past representing western Europe that now consists of nations that more or less have nothing to do with Rome(Spaniards,Lusitanians,Gauls,Britons preexisted to Romans) and the Germans have being allowed to get hold of central europe.In view of the above new ideas are needed for the empire and I hope FB has them.Like Indian Ocean for example...
Then why did the Byzantines still call themselves the Rhomaion even until 1452?
 
Then why did the Byzantines still call themselves the Rhomaion even until 1452?
Very good question!thanks for asking,I know that the Turks called Rhum the Greeks(the Byzantines called themselves Rhomania-country of the Rhum/Greeks-the Strongest guideline you have is the Vatican correspondence with the lords of Rhomania(after 1204) in the 13th century correspondence meaning the crusader lords occupying parts of Peloponnese(in common language Moreas-from a certain fruit tree predominant in the region)-from Rhum-Rhomaios or Rhomios, Rhomeon is genitive.
And I could go on on that from my school days(the years of Byzantine history and later late Byzantine lit. -shoved down our unwilling throats,teachers have a unique way to make you hate a part of history,I mean Byzantine, which was to an extent repeated in the subject of religion which was better organised but the same hateful stuff...I apologise,bad school memories...or nightmares,whichever you prefer).
Anyway,go on with your thread which is more interesting I have sidetracked you a lot and the others would be complaining soon..to them my apologies as well.
 
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Now ,this is touching the subject from a different angle: The Roman Empire had conquered the Greek world and in fact it managed it badly,as it managed its borders badly and fell to the Ostrogoths in the fifth century.After almost seven centuries you are dealing with a new Empire with its own dynamics and perspective having got rid of its conqueror,body and remnants;why should it linger on a dead past representing western Europe that now consists of nations that more or less have nothing to do with Rome(Spaniards,Lusitanians,Gauls,Britons preexisted to Romans) and the Germans have being allowed to get hold of central europe.In view of the above new ideas are needed for the empire and I hope FB has them.Like Indian Ocean for example...

Because it isn't a dead past - its an important part of what the empire is.

Are new ideas appropriate? Yes. Is abandoning being Roman appropriate? No.
 
What part is that Elfwine?

Its foundation.

Its past.

Its claims and position in the world.

It makes about as much sense for it to stop being Roman as it does for China to stop being Chinese.

Calling it Greek limits it to only being a Hellenic state, rather than being as multiethnic and even multicultural as it was. Not that ethnic nationalism is a problem at this point, but the Armenians and Slavs are too important to treat as secondary.
 
Because it isn't a dead past - its an important part of what the empire is.

Are new ideas appropriate? Yes. Is abandoning being Roman appropriate? No.
On the contrary,it is very appropriate;a nation of common language(not Latin),common religion(Christians but not Catholic) is natural to break with a past(western empire/mai Roman Empire defunct) which even in that late day hate their existense and Rome detests them and brand them heretics-the opposite would create a paradox...
That they maintained the word 'Roman' in the past,it served a political purpose that didn't exist anymore therefore no 'raison-d-etre'
 
On the contrary,it is very appropriate;a nation of common language(not Latin),common religion(Christians but not Catholic) is natural to break with a past(western empire/mai Roman Empire defunct) which even in that late day hate their existense and Rome detests them and brand them heretics-the opposite would create a paradox...
That they maintained the word 'Roman' in the past,it served a political purpose that didn't exist anymore therefore no 'raison-d-etre'

It serves the same political purpose that it did half a thousand years ago. It serves the same purpose that it did a thousand years ago.

The Byzantines are the surviving part of the Roman Empire. What the western kingdoms think of them is the opinion of barbarians*. What the Papacy thinks is hardly decisive either.

They have virtually no meaningful connection with the pre-Roman Greeks, and I'm including the Byzantine literary fetish for that style here. Identifying as Greek over Roman would be throwing out the state's identity to replace it with something it doesn't even have any real ties to.

* Anna Comnena's word when describing the Franks, at least in English translation.
 
It serves the same political purpose that it did half a thousand years ago. It serves the same purpose that it did a thousand years ago.

The Byzantines are the surviving part of the Roman Empire. What the western kingdoms think of them is the opinion of barbarians*. What the Papacy thinks is hardly decisive either.

They have virtually no meaningful connection with the pre-Roman Greeks, and I'm including the Byzantine literary fetish for that style here. Identifying as Greek over Roman would be throwing out the state's identity to replace it with something it doesn't even have any real ties to.

* Anna Comnena's word when describing the Franks, at least in English translation.
I have "Alexias" both in Greek(hense the title) and the English translation.
The term is correct and it reflects the way the Greek society of Constantinople saw 'these strange Franks' "who wore animal skins,were unwashed and called themselves nobles"(witness anonymous) nevertheless
the opinion prevelent at that time didn't stop the goverment and merchants to deal with these people and the Byzantines knew very well how the pope influenced the public and ruling class in the west at that time and that basically,these barbarians were hostile to the 'heretic Greeks'.
The opinion you site about the Greeks associates with the opinion of the church that equates the term 'Greek' with the term 'pagan' and those days church was a very powerful organization that even emperos didn't dare cross openly;naturally the common men used the term out of fear of the church mostly, but an inhabitant of Athens new he was a Hellene,a Peloponnesian knew he was a Hellene etc,also see the lords of Romania(peloponnese)calling the Greeks with the derisive term 'Griffons' because they knew they thought themselves Greeks,if they thought themselves Romans they would not be offended by the epithet 'Griffons' since they would feel that it didn't apply to them...
The hold of the church over such matters was wearing off in the late empire since the intelligencia headed my Mihael Psellos knew and called themselves Greeks,and referred quite derisively to those poor ignorant Romans who had turned barbarians, meaning the whole of Italy,the Pope included.There are documents in literature that are in various libraries and monasteries that write clearly all these events...but of course you are rather persistent aren't you?
 
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Alright anyway here is a continuation of the tl. I will keep RHomaion ratheer than Romans because RHomaion is how they were reffered to by almost everybody else.

The Mongols Arrive

Now in 1235 the mongols arrived on the border of Trebizond. THe emperor Alexius urged the Rhomaion senate to go to war against the Mongols in order to save thier ally georgia. However this was shot down by the ruling coalition which refused to go to war against the mongols. They were known as the pro peace faction who wished to negotiate and make deals with the mongols rather than waste roman lives in this war.

Their were a total of 425 seats in the senate and in the resoulution the votes came out to be 250-175 in favour of negotiations.

Alexius did not bother trying to veto the resoulution.

In september of 1235 a rhomaion envoys were sent to the mongol leader in charge of the invsion Hulegu Khan. Hulegu was the current head of the invading mongol force. THe Rhomaion envoy Theodoros Kantakouzenos met with Hulegu Khan. He clamed the rhomaions wanted peace with the mongols and that it would in their best interests to form trade agreements and the likes.

Hulegu when he heard this laughed. he told Theodoros that his force would regardless invade the RHomaion territory. He said that he would not invade if tribute was paid to him.

Theodoros replied that he would need to contemplate this offer and asked for time to think before Hulegu invaded to which Hulegu agreed.

However in December 22 1235 a force of 7000 mongol soldiers lead by Guyuk khan launched an ofensive on Rhomaion Van. It was a surprise assault that lead to the fall of van and a massacre of all its inhabitants.

When news reached COnstantinopple Alexius was said to have given this message to the senate.

December 22 1235 will forever be known as the day of infamy when the armed forces of the mongol empire without warning launched an assault n our country and laid waste to our provincial town. We have tried engotiating with them but they mock us and now plant o destroy us. However we will stand and fight to proterct our families, homes, money, relegion from these heathens who ish to destroy us but we shal never surrender!!!. When Alexius delivered this speech to the senate a resoulution was immediatly brought up which was in favour of war against the mongols and this time the outcome was 350-75 votes in favour of officially declaring war on the mongols. Even the Free peoples party had many who voted in favour of the war.

Alexius immediatly raised an army of some 10000 soldiers with whoom he would lead the counteroffwensive on the mongols. Unlike the western Europeans the Rhomaions had fought with horse nomads and warfare against mobile archer cavalry. Thus they knew a little on how to fight the mongols. But what they didnt know was that with the stirup the mongols were that much more dangerous. At the fields of Caesaria the 10000 strong rhomaion force won a Pyyrhric victory against the mongol horde lead by Guyuk which numbered now 11000 and bolstered by reinforcements.
4000 rhomaions and 6000 mongol soldiers died that day. Guyuk was now on the retreat as the rhomaion forces whose morale had risen nd were eager to kick out the mongols drove back Guyuk and his invasion force from the imperial territory. However they suffered a crushing defeat near lake Van when a force of 12000 Mongol reinforcements lead by Hulegu himself crushed the Emperors army. The Emperor hmself was captured and promptly beheaded by Hulegu.

When Alexius died and the roman army was destroyed th imperial court broke into chaos. Michael as proclaimed EMperor in 1236 as Michael VIII Komnenos. However he was only a young man hardly older than his 20s.

Michael and the Rhomaions would face thier greateast threat since the cursaders. The Mongols lead by Hulegu regrouped and roughly 30000 mongol soldiers virtually the entire army under Hulegus command invaded Anatolia. Facing them was a child emperor and an Army that barely numbered 12000. The situation was hopeless and only through a miracle did the empire survive the mongol Assault.
 
It seems the empire is in dire straights,at least in Anatolia.....I shall wait and see how will be extricated from "clear and present danger"
 
Lets just say a certain leader dies and a massive civil war erupts in his army with his generals turning on each other;)
Usual happy(but true) scenario...it actually happened with the Mongols in their invasion of europe (1241 winter) the great Khan Ogodai died and the prospective candidates rushed back to claim the throne while Europe had really nothing to face them with...
 
Update!!!
The Mongol Byzantine war part 2:

With the Byzantine empire in chaos the forces of the mongols ravaged Anatolia. A force of 10000 besieged and sacked Caesaria in late 1236. Another group of Mongols numbering some 25000 lead by Hulegu himself besieged Trebizond for months guarded by only 8000 soldiers before it too finally gave way in may 1237. The sack of trebizond as it was called dealt a huge morale blow to the Rhomans. The entire city was burned t the ground, its citizens be they man, women, or child were slaughtered. Their heads were by the orders of Hulegu stacked up outside the walls of the once mighty heartland. However in the process the mongols suffered close to 17000 casualties due to disease, famine and the fighting put up by the city. A mongol warrior replied " it was like a demonic dark place many of my comrades were slain by traps and rioters although we killed them all".. The city fell at a large price. Hulegu realized that his force of 30000 initially was reduced to some 10000 mongol soldiers. This didn't worry him too much because he knew he would easily get reinforcements of another 20000 or 30000 soldiers but then events would unfold making them not necessary in the war against the Rhomans.

Suddenly news reached Hulegu that his brother Ogedie died due to drunkennes for Ogedei was a huge drinker and died of kidney failure. He realized that unless he went back to Mongolia he couldn't take part in the succession war that was bound to follow. Plus his troops were already weakened as it was and he decided that it would be too much trouble to go after the rhomans any longer. Far better to make a treaty with them than continue this war and miss out on his chance to become the Great Khan.

When Michael heard of the fall of Trebizond he wept. The heartland of the Komnenoi the city from which Trebizond became so great was no more. With Caesaria fallen as well and news of the destruction of the Bagriotonis of Georgia who had been executed under the orders of Guyuk Khan one of Hulegus generals who had launched his own invasion in tandem with Batu Khan of the Golden horde who also invaded Alania and Azerbaijin put an end to both the powerful Georgian empire, the Turkish emirates near Georgia, and the Cuman Khanate and so all hope for help was extinguished. So you must imagine to Michael's surprise when envoys from the mongols came to him suing for peace.

They declared that in return for paying a vast sum of 40000 byzantine hyperpyron and then an annual tribute of 4000 hyperpyron, the marriage of an Imperial Princess to Hulegus son and the annexation of all of Armenia by Hulegu's khanate would be sufficient for them to leave the Rhomans in peace.

Michael was shocked at how harsh the treaty was but decided that it would be better to pay it off than to continue this war and see more of his cities destroyed.


Thus on August 7th 1237 the short Monglo-Byzantine war ended. Michael's youngest sister Theophano born in 1232 aged 5 was betrothed to Hulegu's 3 year old son Abaqa who would later on become Ilkhan Abaqa who would be one of the Rhomans staunchest allies.

The financial loss however was devastating to the Rhoman imperial treasury. The empire was truly completely bankrupt after paying the huge tribute with many things melted to provide the gold and much of eastern Anatolia up till Caesaria lay in ruins while Trebizond the former capitol was wiped off the face of the map.

The Empire of the Rhomans survived the Mongol onslaught but it would take another 20 years for it to truly recover.

With peace restored at last Michael turned to managing the internal affairs of the empire.
 
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Very good,this update was true to form and very near the facts as in OTL when the Mongols retreated back to Mongolia,after reaching the Adriatic pursuing king Bella IV of Hungary,to claim the vacant throne after the death of Ogedai in 1242.
 
Very good,this update was true to form and very near the facts as in OTL when the Mongols retreated back to Mongolia,after reaching the Adriatic pursuing king Bella IV of Hungary,to claim the vacant throne after the death of Ogedai in 1242.
thanks but see like I told you a certain man dies and so the empire is saved.;)
 
Hm, nothing striking to say about that update.

Though, I have trouble imagining the Mongols maintaining a siege that's costing them over half their army unless its very, very important - and Trebizond, except emotionally, isn't.
 
Hm, nothing striking to say about that update.

Though, I have trouble imagining the Mongols maintaining a siege that's costing them over half their army unless its very, very important - and Trebizond, except emotionally, isn't.
Actually it is because it is the former capitol of the empire the main base of support for the komnenoi, home of the powerful trebizond archers, a city that was rebuilt by Alexius into becoming the second largest city of the empire and a very important strategic city. its fall is basically a terrible blow.
 
Actually it is because it is the former capitol of the empire the main base of support for the komnenoi, home of the powerful trebizond archers, a city that was rebuilt by Alexius into becoming the second largest city of the empire and a very important strategic city. its fall is basically a terrible blow.

The second largest city in the Empire is Trebizond? What happened to Thessalonica?

And if their main base of support is there, how are they holding on to the throne? Trebizond is . . . minor.

Strategic importance: Its far off on the eastern frontier. Except for maybe keeping track of things with Georgia, what importance?
 
The second largest city in the Empire is Trebizond? What happened to Thessalonica?

And if their main base of support is there, how are they holding on to the throne? Trebizond is . . . minor.

Strategic importance: Its far off on the eastern frontier. Except for maybe keeping track of things with Georgia, what importance?
Well it is on the silk road it was a pretty good trading place.

Well fine then its the 3rd or th largest city in the empire.

They are hoding on to the throne because they have already won support for the military aristocracy, technicaly also many of thier key supporters did move from trebizond to constantinople. SO overall you are right it is mainly a huge morale blow than anything else. See Hulegu thought in this tl that if he destroyed trebizond then the rhoman morale would be crushed and with the butchering done their he could easily cull the other rhoman cities to surrender similiar to what the mongols did in Asia and Persia.
 
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