The Right Moment: A Greece Timeline.
- Thread starter Romanos
- Start date
Interesting Thread Romanos,but what I have read so far is downright OTL,unless you intend the shooting of Alexandros Gregoropoulos to be the point of divergence or eventually the cause of it...
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PS are you a media person or a media fun? I see that you really have a very comprehensive knowledge of media flow in Greece.
It was mentioned at the begining that there were not many threads on Greece;I have seen many,from ancient Greece right through the Greek revolutin headed by an escaped Napoleon from Elba(actually the most interesting one) by a colonel Trout...something(I remember the fish) to the 20th century with the assassination of king George I to the Greek Italian War of 1940.Most of them stopped abruptly at various stages in their beginning...
Your discription of Karatzaferis is very interesting...although it is by impression unless you know the man...
Subscribed...
PS are you a media person or a media fun? I see that you really have a very comprehensive knowledge of media flow in Greece.
It was mentioned at the begining that there were not many threads on Greece;I have seen many,from ancient Greece right through the Greek revolutin headed by an escaped Napoleon from Elba(actually the most interesting one) by a colonel Trout...something(I remember the fish) to the 20th century with the assassination of king George I to the Greek Italian War of 1940.Most of them stopped abruptly at various stages in their beginning...
Your discription of Karatzaferis is very interesting...although it is by impression unless you know the man...
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Why, thank you.
Only the first post is OTL, from the second there are two PoDs: The first is that the September fires were much worse and that the Zahopoulos scandal broke a few months before OTL, before the September election. You'll see then that ND lost more than OTL and, although it came first, didn't have the majority so it made a coalition government with LAOS. Another butterfly is that, because PASOK, did even worse than OTL is that Papandreou was more seriously challenged and only narrowly won his leadership re-election. There are other, more minor butterflies but I'll tell you to look more closely into what has happened... Although I do take it as a compliment that people don't get it's alternate history until this moment.
Yeah, I've taken a look at most of these timelines and they were good, I wish they had gone further. About that media thing, I'm just generally interested, especially in view of their role in the last few years. I'm just a uni student. And, forgive me, I didn't actually get what you mean for Karatzaferis, do you know him (as in personally) or something?
Why, thank you.
Only the first post is OTL, from the second there are two PoDs: The first is that the September fires were much worse and that the Zahopoulos scandal broke a few months before OTL, before the September election. You'll see then that ND lost more than OTL and, although it came first, didn't have the majority so it made a coalition government with LAOS. Another butterfly is that, because PASOK, did even worse than OTL is that Papandreou was more seriously challenged and only narrowly won his leadership re-election. There are other, more minor butterflies but I'll tell you to look more closely into what has happened... Although I do take it as a compliment that people don't get it's alternate history until this moment.
Yeah, I've taken a look at most of these timelines and they were good, I wish they had gone further. About that media thing, I'm just generally interested, especially in view of their role in the last few years. I'm just a uni student. And, forgive me, I didn't actually get what you mean for Karatzaferis, do you know him (as in personally) or something?
Romanos,seriously now,look again at the Thread of Napoleon king of the Helenes;it is very unsusual and an original plot;someone must continue it.
You seem to write well,or to narrate well or to be comprehensively expressive;you could do it.The guy who started it must be ex military British,he didn't know zilch about the Greek revolution;you could just walk
through the first part no swet...I can help on the military(or historical side)
think about it...this colonel Trout something was writing "the only man in Prussia"...
uni student?I really missed that what is it?
Yes I have met Georgos Karatzaferis twice:the first time I was coming from Africa and I wanted to see the ERT archives that he somehow was cataloging and arciving and there I understood that the person was a master of Geopolitics about eastern Mediterranean and knew modern history of Southern Europe very well and the second time in Maroussi(I was visiting there) when he was campaigning to be elected an MP and was at the opening of his election office;well the phoney thing is you named him a racist(and something else and I was thinking that you called a Greek racist?big bloody deal Romanos;we are the nation of the greatest racists in the world BUT we have never conquered anybody or progromed anyone...from Aristotle's "anyone who is not Greek is a barbarian" to "koutofragoi" we are that peculiar kind of racists;absolutely not against blacks(but in Africa yes we are!) of course against Muslims(they are fighting us for 1300 years so no surprise there.and against Turks of any kind and..some others including English in the modern world (unjustly)
and Americans lately for their naive but deadly political games since 1950s and the list is probably longer..I will surprise you by telling you that the man is not racist but a Greek....as simple as that...and I also heard(I don't live in Greece now) that he had his own party...
I understood about your small divergences but those they will not constitute an AH incident...unless you have something else in mind...
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Chapter 8: Breaking
10.45 PM, Athens, 6 December 2008,Village Cinemas Complex, Tavros, Athens.
Boy, was it cold outside. As Dimitiris was leaving the auditorium, he was reminded of the cold of December, especially now that the night had fallen. As he and his friends were walking towards the metro station, it started to rain. A little while later, it stopped again. But after some moments, it started once again. Weird. As they were entering the train, he was thinking of the movie they had just watched. It was actually good. It was called ‘Elias of the 16th’, a remake of the classical 1959 theatrical comedy. The plot was as thus: two friends in dire need of money, the one for his wife’s expensive surgery and the other is an unemployed man in deep debt, decide to steal the employer of the former, who is a loan shark and hides his "clients'" jewelry in a hidden boot in his house. Later, a third friend joins the plot and is assigned to keep a look out in the street for anyone that might see them; for that purpose, he’s dressed as a policeman. But, in the middle of the burglary in the deep night, he’s asked by one of the ‘high-society’ residents next door to investigate if their maid has stolen some pieces of jewelry that were missing. But the truth was that the wife had given it to the loan shark so as to borrow from him so that he and her husband can play cards and reclaim large amounts of money they had already lost in such games. The ‘policeman’ finally agreed to investigate what was going on but, to his and his co-plotters’ bad luck, a few real policemen appeared and the story gets even more perplexed. It had a great and funny ending after many twists of the plot.
Dimitris enjoyed it of course and so did his friends. But, as it happens to him with most movies, books and really everything that can be watched or read, he started overthinking the whole mondus vivendi of the characters and the social situations and interactions in that movie. It matched his image of the real, contemporary society even if it’s just a remake of a 50s movie. Three people, one of them in his early 20s, the other in the 50s and the last an old guy, in dire economic need face the dilemma of losing important and valued for them things, or take a risk and a morally questionable decision to steal from a most immoral person that engages in illegal activities. The loan shark? Ah, there are many of those – both in the literal and in the abstract meaning of the word, and of many kinds too. The state is nowhere to be found, let alone actually help when needed and its executive institutions, here the police, are all so bad in doing their jobs it’s beyond ridiculous. The good thing with the movie being that it was very funny and had a happy ending for everyone involved (well, not the bad guy of course)…
As he was getting lost in his thoughts, he had already reached his home. Weird, there was nobody there, unlike most times he came back at that time (Heh, they took a Saturday evening to go out then? AT LAST I have the house for me for a while!) He took a large glass of cold Coke, some chocolate biscuits and headed for his room. Let’s watch a thriller now. As he was turning on his computer, he remember he had to talk to Christina about that school ‘feast’ for Christmas. Trivial thing, but had to be done. Let’s open the MSN and be done with it.
Before he could click anything, a message popped up. Then a second. Nah, ads again. It’s getting irritating. He clicked X to the one window that had appeared, but then there was a contact window that had appeared. It was no ad. Apparently, Maria had sent him something while he was offline. That should be interesting. And interesting, it was.
Just an hour ago, two cops killed in cold blood a 15-year old student for no reason then ran away. They are going to cover it up. We mustn’t let them get away with it, again. Tomorrow, we assemble in the Pedion tou Areos and we march in GADA. On Monday, we occupy all the schools in memory of our friend. We mustn’t let them cover this murder.
11.24 PM, 6 December 2008, An apartment in Athens, Greece.
The young woman was sitting in her couch, talking on the phone. Her voice would seem to imply that something serious had happened. But if one was on the other side of the line – or inside her head, for that matter – , he would know that was certainly not the case. Yes, you are a good friend of mine, but talking about all the great features this bar has after blabbing for like an eternity on eight new ways to cook a chicken is one of the worst cases of taking advantage of others’ patience, in my experience. Nevertheless, she had nothing better to do at that moment so she mustered all her patience and tried to sound engaged in the conversation. If you really think about it, at least some of these recipes must be interesting to try sometime. Right? (Bah.)
In the middle of the eternity, a very loud clacking sound covered the words of her friend. That was a bit weird, but not too much, considering the area she lives. Exarcheia has a strong reputation for being the centre of anarchists, leftists and other groups of the same origin. The media, especially the rightist ones, always portray the area like it’s a rats’ nest or something. But nothing serious had happened in a quite long time. An instinct drove her to tell her friend she’ll call back, hang up and take her mobile to the balcony. There were some people down in the street, but they were few. And now, calm had returned. But there seemed to be a strange tension in the scene. But a police car was turning left and away from that street. She stayed in her balcony, standing with the mobile in her hand. Two minutes passed, then two cops were coming with a quick step. As if they wanted something. She turned the camera of the mobile on. Yelling. They put out guns. She was terrified and pulled behing a little, but kept recording. Two gunshots were clearly heard. Then they turned back and left again, walking faster than before. Something must have happened. She went down in the street. A child had been shot. She learnt from the people there that two cops had killed him. After twenty minutes or so, a police investigator arrived at the scene. She walked him to the spot where the two cops were when the shots were fired. Two buds were at that exact spot. The investigator asked her if she would like to file a witness report. She said yes. So they walked to the Exarcheia police department. On the way, there was already growing tension. After a little while, a group of about fifty anarchists were clashing with the police. Riot police. While they were still walking, a crowd was gathering. But, when she turned to her right, the investigator was not there. She had lost him; she looked around, but he was nowhere to be found. She decided to go back to her home. Surely they would call her, she had already given her personal details to him. And so she went back home, as the clashes were growing more and more violent, with more and more people moving against the deployed police. She opened the door of her apartment and just sat there. But the call never happened.
11.32 PM, 6 December 2008. Nine kilometres away.
Gina took her mobile from her pocket and called the number. She waited only a few seconds, until her son answered the call.
-Everything ok, Alexanros? Should I come and pick you up?
But the voice she heard was not the one she expected. It was a woman’s voice that replied.
-…Are you the mother of Alexandros Gregoropoulos?
-Yes, I am.
-Mrs Tsalikian, your son has been injured seriously. You must come to the Evagelismos Hospital immediately.
Immediately Gina realized what the woman had just implied.
-Please tell me, does my child live?
-I can’t tell you, but don’t come alone, come with a friend of yours.
11.55, 6 December 2008, ALTER TV Breaking News.
-Ladies and gentlemen, we are interrupting our programe, as there is rioting at this moment in Exarcheia. At the spot, there is our journalist, Giorgos Koutroumanakis. Giorgos, can you tell us what is happening?
-In the crossroads of Messologiou and Tzavela streets, a passing police car of the Exarcheia police department ‘bumped’ on a group of anarchists. As soon as the anarchists realized the presence of the police car, they tried to attack and according to some, they tried to use Molotov cocktails against the policemen. The one of the two policemen got out of the police car and has shot towards the direction of the group, and as a consequence one young person was injured. He is being transferred to Evangelismos Hospital. The centre has been blocked and numerous police forces have rushed to the spot. From the other side, the anarchists have called help from their comrades to go to the same place. We hope this will end now…
-Thank you. For anything new, we’ll interrupt our programme again. For the time being, goodbye.
I thought I'd remove them after I posted the update. Plus, it's not really a good idea to give a clear hint at what's going to happen at a later time in the TL. I could be wrong, of course.
Chapter 9: State-Martial
“Mister President,
You are taking over the Presidency of the Republic for a period of five years, during which important events will happen. The European unification will be promoted, with the probable ratification of the constitutional treaty, national boundaries and a part of national sovereignty will be restricted for the benefit of welfare, peace and security in the enlarged Europe. The rights of human and the citizen will undergo changes, as they will be able to be protected, but also maybe be violated by authorities and powers beyond the known and established ones, while Democracy will meet challenges and will be tried by new forms of governance.”
– Speaker of the House to the incoming President of the Republic Karolos Papoulias, May 2005.
The Second Dekemvriana* in Retrospect, 14th December 2013, New Daily Star paper.
The events of December of 2008 have been titled many ways, depending on who was doing the naming. Some simply called it the “December 2008 events”, others call it “December Riots”. An extreme leftist philosopher even called it “The Second Revolution”. Myself, I just use the name “Second Dekevriana”, as it is the most widely used name used to describe these events, and it may be argued that it is the most neutral name that can be used.
As is already known, everything started with the murder of the 15-year old Alexandros Grigoropoulos by two policemen in Exarcheia. Within hours after the event, scenes unseen in Athens at least since the restoration of democracy in 1974 unraveled. Only half an hour after the moment of the killing,[…]
12.05 AM, 7 December, Exarcheia District.
The night had illuminated. The battle had just begun.
“We haven’t said the last word, this day belongs to Alex!”
“Cops, Pigs, Murderers!”
Cars, buildings, trash bins burning.
“Plunder to our stolen lives!”
2.47 AM, 7 December, Heraklion, Crete.
“The blood is running, revenge it is demanding!”
10.00 AM Mega TV Morning News.
BULLETINS
Minister of Interior submitted resignation to Prime Minister, but it was rejected.
The President of the Republic characterized the event as a “trauma to the rule of the law”.
14.15 PM, 7 December 2008, Athens Indymedia*.
In 13.00 PM, 5000 gathered in Panepistimou str for the demonstration to GADA. There were school and university students of all ages, people in their fourties and fifites, with people of the anarchist and the general leftist spectrum… But the cops blocked us next to the Court of Cassation, so we spread in the nearby streets. Some hooded people using molotovs then burnt banks, car dealers’ shops and a Plaisio shop nearby, and at the same time residents started throwing flowerpots from their balconies to the police forces…
“Government of Murderers!”
The Second Dekemvriana* in Retrospect, 14th December 2013, New Daily Star paper, page 5.
[…] clashes that lasted until the morning of Monday; that was when a 15 year old was beaten near Omonoia Square by policemen. […] Ermou Street, the heart of retail shopping of Athens, experienced much damaged throughout its length. Clashes spread across the centre, even as south as Syggrou Avenue. Later that day, the Chairman of the National Federation of Commerce said “No damage can be compared to the loss of life of a young person.” But when the Police issued an official statement which said that the two special guards were attacked in force by 30 individuals and they responded by throwing a hand grenade and shooting three times, and had this statement disproven directly by witnesses, it was clear that the police did not want to do any favours for itself by telling the truth. And that was when the youth was confirmed in its assessment of the security forces and stepped up its actions. Within hours, the general assemblies of schools, universities and polytechnics decided lock-outs at least for the next day and the Federation of Universities Teaching Staff announced a three-day strike. Meanwhile, SYRIZA called for a protest rally for the next day as well; so did KKE.
“The Chronicle of a Foretold Murder”, 29 November 2012, Reporters Without Borders.
University Student “And at that moment, at the barracades in front of the Law Schools, I saw something I had never seen before: a well-dressed woman in her late 50s to 60s, throwing a rock to the police! I was stunned, I never expected in my life to see anything like this!
ND Junior Secretary for Media […] And that made the government not just terrified, but to lose control from that point on. […] Especially some European governments were watching with interest, as they feared that because of the crisis of the economy, including the unemployment and the increasing economic hardships experienced by an increasing number of people, similar events might happen in their countries as well.
Kostas Tsironis, photographer: In the march at Alexandras Avenue, I saw a policeman arguing with protesters – it was a weird scene, he had extended his arm as if he was holding a gun and pointing it horizontally, but it seemed that he was actually pretending to hold a gun, like kids do when they play; so I started taking photos. And as the frames started ‘falling’ the one on the next, I saw another policeman and he was certainly holding a gun, a real gun. After a few moments, I realized they had seen me and then they looked each other. But I was able to get away and went straight to the office of my editor in the journal. He was suspicious if the gun was real. Then he was suspicious of the photo itself and said he would send it to an analyst. The analyst affirmed its authenticity but on the next day, I learnt that the Director of the newspaper had given orders to change both the front page and the reportage and that the photo would not be publicized. So, I realized that this finding would be lost.
The next day, the photo was publicized on foreign news networks and the internet, and the editor of the newspaper fired the photographer. The news of his dismissal had broken through the entire internet and greatly intensified the distrust towards Greek news outlets. Meanwhile, the video of the murder that had been recorded by witness Lito Valiatza had been distorted by MEGA TV Station which showed it, as sounds of clashes, cars being broken and loud yelling had been added.
1.22 PM, 8 December 2008, insomnia.gr
Posted by Alexkrz
Students’ marches in central Athens and suburbs, Thessaloniki, Larissa and other cities against police departments the last two hours. There were contained clashes between them and the police. Also, there was another march by a large group of students outside GADA.
“These are Alex’s days!”
12.14 PM, 8 December 2008, skai.gr
Prime Ministerial Address: “Radical elements exploited the sad event for their own goals. With everything that happened until today – especially yesterday – they proved that their motive is nothing more than violence.” The Prime Minister also promised that citizens whose property was damaged will be compensated.
9.43 PM, 8 December 2008, kathimerini.gr
Unprecedented Violence in Athens
Afternoon, marches were unprecedented violence. Athens: 24 banks in the centre, 22 cars, 12 residencies, 1 library and the Christmas tree in Syntagma. A gun shop in Omonoia and many retail shops in Ermou street was looted. A large number of immigrants participated in the mass lootings. 92 people were arrested, of which 53 were immigrants.
10.30 PM GTM, 8 December 2008, bbc.co.uk
In Greece, worst violence since the fall of the dictatorship
-Emergency cabinet session called by PM.
-Minister of Education announces schools and universities will remain closed tomorrow as a show of grief.
-Emergency cabinet session called by PM.
-Minister of Education announces schools and universities will remain closed tomorrow as a show of grief.
11.25 PM, 8 December 2008, Cabinet Room, Maximos Mansion, Athens.
Kostas Karamanlis, Prime Minister: Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you for coming here in these dire circumstances. As you all know, the subject of our emergency session is the situation in Athens and the other cities for the past few days and the route of action we should take from here. Mister Pavlopoulos, would you have any recommendation on the subject?
Prokopis Pavlopoulos, Minister of Interior: Yes, Prime Minister. They tell me from the Police’s Headquarters that they’re employing their “Π” method, which means that the police forces encircle the anarchists from three sides and give them one escape route so as to evacuate the area which they occupy and disperse. But I have strictly instructed them not to use any measures that may lead to any death, as that would surely lead to another, probably much bigger, round of social unrest. Moreover, I have-
Makis Voridis, LAOS Deputy Minister of Defence: Sorry Prokopis, but what are you talking about? We have a situation here that-
Prokopis Pavlopoulos: If you would let me finish, Mister Voridis…
Makis Voridis: I’m sorry but here we have a situation that is way too serious for such half-hearted measures. The whole of Athens is burning, the image of our capital in flames has made the round of the world at least five times over and the rule of law is directly being challenged by some thugs! Do you want us to sit back and hope the problem just goes away??
Evripidis Stylianidis, Minister of Education: In all fairness, the majority of protesters are students and other citizens who are not violent and have little to no connections to the ‘thug’s you’re referring to.
Makis Voridis: Be it as it may, the situation is getting worse every day and we’re not too far from losing control of the situation! This is not just a demonstration like the others; the centre of Athens is not the only place that’s experiencing riots and damages anymore. All over the city, from Faliro to Piraeus to Victoria, not to even mention Syntagma and Exarcheia there are daily attacks towards the organs of the law and we’re not doing anything about that, and now the whole media are saying the government is losing control!! Do you think our party and its leader are going to do nothing about that?
Kostas Karamanlis: What are you suggesting then, Mister Deputy Minister?
Makis Voridis: We have to take back full control of the situation and finally show who’s in charge! We are suggesting – we have to suggest- imposing martial law and the intervention of the army to finally put down these riots!
The suggestion by the deputy minister that was coming from the smaller government partner was met with tense silence in the room for some moments, in the meanwhile people looking each other for a second or two as if they were trying to ask each other if he was serious.
Kostas Karamanlis: …did I get this right? You and mister Karatzaferis are proposing…
Makis Voridis: It’s not just him and me. We have the full support of Mrs Arapoglou and we have discussed this with several other members of the cabinet.
Dimitra Arapoglou, Deputy Minister of Justice: This is true, Mister Karamanlis. Several members of the government agree on this. She looked to her left.
Nikos Dendias, Minister of Justice: Actually, mister Prime Minister, it is true that we need to do something serious to stop this. As they say, harsh times require harsh measures. And our tactics of trying to defuse the situation and let them destroy Athens until they’re spent hasn’t work until now, and it’s not going to work either.
The Prime Minister could not help the stunned look on his face. This was a hit that he couldn’t have expected. Not only is imposing martial law and inviting the army out of their barracks for the first time since the junta on the table, there are members of his government who agree on this! Still, he quickly realized he couldn’t look like he was caught completely by surprise; after that brief moment of shock, he tried to look as if he was still in command of the discussion.
Kostas Karamanlis: I see what you’re saying, Mr. Dendias. And I suppose there are more people in this room who are support of this... course of action?
The Prime Minister rolled his eyes both right and for a second, trying to guess who was agreeing with this madness. Before he could locate the crazy people he has made the mistake to turn to ministers, Voridis spoke again.
Makis Vorids: Yes, Mister Karamanlis. But the decision, of course, rests on you and you alone. But we do think this the best we can do right now.
Kostas Karamanlis: You can’t be serious. This is a democratic country, and a country that’s in the core of the European Union and its institutions no less! A Western country, a country that has suffered from the involvement of the army in politics! Have you even considered what would the reaction of everyone – both in and outside the country – be if we were to go through with your brilliant plan?
He didn’t even try to hide his sarcastic tone this time. It was genuine, but it was also meant to be a clear sign that he wouldn’t tolerate more serious discussion on the matter. But it was obvious to anyone who could see beneath his sarcasm that he was frightened.
Makis Voridis: I’m sorry, Mister Prime Minister, but the face of the government and our country has long been damaged. After so many years of scandals and many days of destruction in our capital city, we’ve hit rock bottom. Everyone’s asking where’s the government to protect its people and their properties. Doing the right thing now will send a strong message that we’re serious about the rule of law in this country and that we don’t let some extremist people do what they want and making a mess out of our country uninterrupted.
Kostas Karamanlis: But they’re not uninterrupted! The full force of the police forces are on the streets since Sunday and they’re doing everything in their power to keep control of the situation.
Makis Voridis: And how has that worked until now, Prime Minister?
Voridis’ voice sounded confident as well as imperative. He was clever enough to understand that he was now winning the argument.
The President of the Government, on the other hand, was at a loss of words.
Karamanlis:…
Panos Panagiotopoulos, Minister of Defence: Rumors about Mister Karazaferis’ and Mister Voridis’ suggestions have reached us already and it has also reached the supreme echelons of the Armed Forces. I’ve been informed that the Chief of General Staff, General Grapsas, is very negative towards such a prospect and you don’t even want to know what my people have been overhearing in the corridors of the Pentagon for the last hours from the military officers.
Makis Voridis: As much as I respect the Chiefs of the Armed Forces, they are subordinate to the government and they must follow its orders. They have no saying on the matter.
Prokopis Pavlopoulos: You very well know the history of our Armed Forces and, quite frankly, I think the General is on the right in this. It’s not the business of the military to keep order in our cities. This is not its role.
Makis Voridis: Again, mister Pavolopoulos, do you have any better plan?
Prokopis Pavlopoulos: We simply can blame this whole mess to a single group of individuals and let them be the bad guys.
Kostas Karamanlis: Do you have anything in mind?
Prokopis Pavlopoulos: Yes, in fact, I do. If you look at the statements of every party in Parliament, you’ll see that all but one of them have clearly and unequivocally condemned the violence of the past days. But SYRIZA hasn’t – their statement was half-condemning to the police and half-apologetic to everyone that’s been on the streets. Even Papariga called them out on this – and on TV when every TV station was covering her statement! Am I the only one to see an opportunity here?
Makis Voridis: This is certainly a good way for the government to make someone else let be the bad guy, it won’t get us out of this. We still need to take extraordinary measures.
Kostas Karamanlis: Okay, gentlemen, time has been passing and we’ve been sitting here while the situation still unfolds before us. We need to take a decision now. I say we follow Mister Pavlopoulos’ advice and we’ll see if we accept Mister Voridis’ suggestions in the next few days, if the situation is not defused.
Expressions of approval came from many people in the room.
Prokopis Pavlopoulos: Alright, then I suggest that in tomorrow’s address on TV, you meet with the President and then call all leaders of the parliamentary parties to talk about the situation and, after the meetings and the condemnations from everyone, let the leader of SYRIZA fall in the trap. Their double digits will evaporate overnight and things will get easier from that point on.
Nods of approval came from everyone at the prospect of one single party being painted the instigator of everything that had happened since Saturday night.
Kostas Karamanlis: Okay, thank you everyone, take care and good night.
As they were walking out, Voridis leaned towards the Prime Ministered and said in a friendly, yet firm tone “Look, I don’t want this to escalate, but the leader of my party is very strong on this – he may even reconsider our participation in your government if nothing is done”. Karamanlis replied swiftly “The leader of LAOS is free to act as he wills. If he wants to bring down the government at this kind of situation, let him do it.”
Makis Voridis: He really doesn’t want to… Maybe you should contact each other and find some common ground.
Kostas Karamanlis: We’ll see.
1.39 PM, 9 December 2008, in.gr
Leaders Condemn Violence – Papariga slams SYRIZA, Karatzaferis wants harsh measures
The leaders of the parliamentary leaders all made public statements concernings the riots. PASOK leader Giorgos Papandreou asked citizens to 'condemn violence without violence', KKE Secretary General Aleks Papariga condemned the violent riots and material damages and she spoke of a 'united front of anti-riot police and hooded individuals ' and of provocateurs instigated by 'centres inside and outside Greece' aiming at 'the defamation of the people's movement'. The chairman of SYRIZA Alekos Alavanos for his part also condemned incidents of violence, however he blamed the government for the riots and called the unrest a "social phenomenon" and "an insurrection of the youth". Giorgos Karatzaferis, the leader of LAOS, attributed the riots to "agents", "provocateurs" and "foreign centres" which incite violence.
2.00 PM, 9 December 2008, MEGA TV.
"Ladies and Gentlemen, we have the parliamentary parties’ leaders making their statements after their meetings with the Prime Minister...
The first to make a statement was Aleka Papariga who said "[…] The leadership of SYRIZA must stop patting the hooded in the back. We’re not saying that SYRIZA are the perpetrators, but they need to stop patting them in the back."
2.19 PM, 9 December 2008, tanea.gr
As protesters pack Syntagma and violence has reached a critical point, we’ve found out that yesterday Minister Stylianidis in a football match in OAKA…
3.07 PM, 9 December 2008, Alexandros’ Funeral, Palaio Faliro, Athens.
The priest began uttering the words of the Byzantine liturgy. Everyone was finally silent.
Sometime later, the sounds of motorbikes could be heard in the distance. The noise grew louder and louder. About a dozen of police motorbikes had appeared outside the cemetry, coming from Agios Dimitrios and going towards Achilleos Street. But as they approached, they slowed down.
Katerina could now see the cops on the motorbikes wore the uniform of the 'Z Unit'. Many of them started shooting in the air. In a moment, it was as if the air had changed in the cemetry; the thousands were stunned by the huge audacity of the cops. After everything that happened, they had nerve to come to the kid who their colleagues killed and shoot in the air!
Katerina had had enough. She was never for violence, with the exception of self-defence of course. But before any other thought could form in her mind, many youth already had exited the cemetry to confront the intruders of Alexandros' last home.
5.12 PM, 9 December 2008, kathimerini.gr
Riots In the Centre, Palaio Faliro, Nea Smirni
5.20 PM, 9 December 2008, Maximos Mansion, Athens.
-Mister Prime Minister, I have Mister Karatzaferis on the line for you.
-…
-Good afternoon, Mister Prime Minister, what can I do for you?
-Thanks for answering the call, Mister Karatzaferis-
-Of course.
-…Listen, last night in the cabinet, both of your party’s ministers insisted that you want the Government to respond to the… disturbances. Is that correct?
-Yes, Mister Karamanlis, we believe that the situation is growing worse every day and we need to deal with it firmly and show no tolerance for acts of violence and in defiance of the state’s security forces.
From what the Prime Minister was gathering, the man he was talking to wasn’t going to change his mind.
-I presume Mister Voridis and Mrs Arapoglou have already transmitted to you my and the government’s stance on this…
-Yes, but they also told me that your stance is not necessarily the government’s stance.
-Still, I’m the President of the Government and its members serve at my pleasure. When a time comes that the responsibility falls on my shoulders, they are required by law and by convention to follow it.
-Hold on now, Mister Karamanlis. That may be true for those that come from the same party as you, but it certainly is very far from the truth when it comes to my ministers! This is a coalition government, may I remind you!
-Yes, but it’s still a single government, not two and not three of them. One. And we can’t have the Prime Minister ordering one thing and some deputy minister saying another.
-Again, Mister Prime Minister, this is a crucial matter for our participation in this government and I don’t like it when they don’t take me and my party seriously. You must agree on this – it’s the right thing to do!
-You say so.
-Listen. One of my party’s central positions is the upholding of the rule of law and the continuing order across the country. If the government cannot support these, we cannot continue our co-operation with this government.
-What are you implying, sir?
-I’m not implying anything. Either the government gets serious about it, or we will find ourselves in the sad position of having to withdraw our support from you and your government.
-What then, would you have me declare martial law and bring in the army in the middle of the night?! It’s not just some rioters – there are thousands of students, of citizens out there! Tomorrow Is the fucking general strike ADEDY and GSEE just announced, how do you think it’d look like??!
Kostas was now realizing the serious prospect of actually doing what he had feared for the last day and had never taken seriously until that moment.
-Well, as a first step, you could warn GSEE and ADEDY not to go ahead with their idiotic strike.
-See, intervening in their-
-I’m sorry, but if you don’t, I’ll have to. And let’s be clear on this – if the situation hasn’t been defused within the next 24 hours, either you follow our and your cabinet’s suggestions, or we’ll announce our withdrawal from your government; and I’m sure a no-confidence motion will have been table by tomorrow midnight by the parties of the Left and quite possibly by Papandreou as well.
-Thank you for your advice, Mister Karatzaferis. I’ll take it into serious consideration.
And he hung up.
7.20 PM, 9 December 2008, ANT1 News.
Ladies and Gentlemen, Prime Minister has a statement to make at this time.
“My fellow citizens, good evening.
We have all been saddened and shocked by the tragic death of the fifteen year old student in Exarcheia on Saturday. We share the grief of his family and his friends and we understand the need of the young people to express their sadness and their grief. But since that day, groups that have nothing to with the rule of law and a civic society have used the event and exploited the feelings of our youth to spread chaos and destruction in our cities. Make no mistake – the government has not, does not and will not tolerate such behavior and violence. Greece is a democratic country and we all have democratic consciousness and we firmly condemn such acts, as all the democratic forces of our land have. But the situation that has evolved in the last days obliges us to advise the trade unions to cancel their plans for tomorrow – they will give the perfect opportunity to those who spread violence to once again bring turmoil and great damage to property of many citizens. It is this government’s position that any such acts will be the responsibility of GSEE and ADEDY.
Thank you.”
9.00PM, 9 December 2008, SKAI news.
-Another day of unrest and chaos in Athens and other cities
-Prime Minister warns against strike and condemns violence
-GSEE and ADEDY refused to cancel their general strike tomorrow
-One 15-year old student was injured in a demonstration in Peristeri amd clashes between young protesters and the police
10.20 PM, 9 December 2008, tovima.gr
Demonstrations, Clashes, Tension in many cities
‘Indignant’ citizens appeared in Patras
‘Indignant’ citizens appeared in Patras
For the first time in this conflict, yesterday ‘indignant’ citizens made their appearance in yesterday. Indeed, mayor of Patras Mr. Andreas Fouras as members of far-right groups. In the city, stone-throwing war broke out between protesters and citizens, while at the same time, fierce clases unfolded near the building of the Police Directorate of Achaea, during which serious damages took place. Protesters were throwing stones and sticks at the police, who repelled them using stun grenades and tear gus. At the same time, another group of protesters invaded the building of the Periphery of Western Greece and occupied the office of the Peripheriarch.
6.55 AM, 10 December 2008, newbomb.gr
Another Night of Violence
9.45 AM, 10 December 2008, antinews.gr
Today, 3000 Student March in Nafplio
1.30 PM GMT+2, 10 December 2008, huffingtonpost.com
GREECE UNREST: Live Feed
UPDATE: General Strike in Athens Shuts Down Greek Capital
On the fifth day of unrest in Greece, the general strike called by GSEE and ADEDY was joined not only by thousands of workers who went on strike, but also by thousands of students who once again walked out of their schools and took part in protests in the centre of Athens. Both of Greece’s umbrella unions were warned yesterday by the Prime Minister Kostas Karamanlis not to go ahead with their strike and march, as last days protests have been overshadowed by extremely violent outbursts of violence, including damages worth millions of euros. This plea was turned down, however, and the turnout of this protest has exceeded expectations both of the unions themselves and the media, as well as the government. The number of protestors is said to be over 80.000. But at the moment when the police started using tear gas and the hooded individuals broke out from the demonstration, the police used force against them and one 16-year old that was among the peaceful demonstrators was badly injured, in an incident that may harden the resolve of the youth in this social unrest that started in the night of 6th to 7th December.
7.55 PM, 10 December 2008, tanea.gr
Demonstration turns violent in Syntagma
9.10 PM GMT+2, 10 December 2008, huffingtonpost.com
GREECE UNREST: Live Feed
UPDATE: Unprecedented Violence across Athens, Thessaloniki, Patras and Other Cities
In an unexpected turn of events in Greece this afternoon, the end of the demonstration about two hours ago saw the outburst of what may be the worst violence seen in Athens at least since the restoration of democracy in 1974. Hooded individuals broke out from the demonstration in Syntagma Square and headed to Ermou Street and the areas of Omonoia, Exarcheia and in other areas, with 29 banks, 57 cars and 16 shops burnt. Protesters claim that this started only when police used tear gas to the protest in front of Parliament without reason. Residents have expressed their dismay at the lack of protection by the government and its inability to prevent the damages to their property. 48 people were arrested in Athens.
The Second Dekemvriana* in Retrospect, 14th December 2013, New Daily Star paper, page 6.
[…] the riots that began in the afternoon of December 10 did not stop until the next day, and it has been established that they were not only the most violent but also the most violent until that day […]
1.45 PM, 11 December 2008, iefimerida.gr
-295 schools, 18 Universities and 10 Polytechnics shut down as teachers strike, students walk out
-35.000 students and teachers demonstrate – New Riots
-Tension in Syntagma after two youth were injured in the last few days by police action against rioters
-Syntagma covered in tear gus
3.20 PM, 11 December 2008, tvxs.gr
LAOS Statement: Students must go back to schools, teachers and others must end strike
Just fifteen minutes ago, the press office of LAOS sent to the press a statement that condemns the unrest in the streets and “urged” both teachers and other employees who are on strike to ‘at once’ suspend their ‘crippling’ course of action and get back to work, while calling on students ‘who are clearly in the minority’ to ‘go back to study and stop harassing our society’. The LAOS went on to say that unlawful action will face a very harsh crackdown and ‘hooded anarchists’ will not be tolerated. It ended with the phrase ‘The judiciary is dealing with the matter’.
6.05 PM, 11 December 2008, indymedia.gr
Posted by rev-nomikarios12
Comrades, I agree with what everyone has been saying and let me add that the ‘addresses’ and the ‘statements’ that have been published during the last days clearly show the panic of the system! We must go on to win, most people are with us and this was shown in the strike and demonstrations of the last days… They almost killed two more students beside Alex even after what happened, who’s telling us they won’t do it again? Now we’re on the right in this and we have the upper hand and the moral high ground, we need to keep going stronger than ever!
7.40 PM GMT+2, 11 December 2008, in.gr
Live Updates
12.08 am. Youth Demonstrate With Candles in Syntagma, estimates vary between 7,000 and 30,000
12.54 am. Part of the demonstrators clash with police
1.02 am. Police force use tear gas against demonstrators
1.33 am. Large numbers of hooded youth move towards Ermou Street, joined by others coming from northwest
1.50 am. Demonstration in Syntagma ends, many shops, cars, banks, ATMS, bins in Ermou street and Monastiraki burning
2.19 am. Looters appear, many of them immigrants. The scene largely resembles what happened last Monday
4.55 AM, 12 December 2008, defencenet.gr
Where is the state? – Need for huge crackdown to catch hooded thugs
This night was one more night of fear, terror and damages for the law-abiding citizens who have been suffering all these days from anarchists, provocateurs an immigrants. The state is nowhere to be found the belongings of the citizens are at the mercy of anyone who takes part in this travesty – or even walks by. It seems that everyday people in Athens need to what the citizens of Patras did and protect themselves and their properties from this looting that has been going and doensn’t seem like it will come to an end soon.
7.11 AM, 12 December 2008, enikos.gr
Rumours about martial law leaked
Questionmarks have been raised for the last few hours after leaks from unnamed government sources have revealed that, at some level, the possibility of imposing martial law in the country so as to quell the unrest of the past six days has been discussed. There is not any further information on this story and it is still not confirmed, as no official has accepted the premise of the rumour that reached a number of media outlets.
7.58 AM, 12 December 2008, Maximos Mansion, Athens.
Kostas Karamanlis: Good morning, everyone. I won't take lots of your time, as we're all in a rush these days and we need to do business efficiently. I called once again an extraordinary session of the Cabinet to talk about the unrest and riots of the last days and the need to find an exodus from this.
Panos Panagiotopoulos: So, what-
Kostas Karamanlis: I'm sorry Panos, but you'll all get a chance to speak when I'm done. As we all know, the disturbances of the last days have been met with the strongest possible response by this government and the state security forces. The leader of LAOS contacted me a few hours ago, asking other kinds of measures to tackle the situation and I refused. I now bring the matter to the Cabinet since it has been made clear that this government cannot continue in its current form without an agreement between the two sides. The Minister of Justice has an important note for us. Mister Dendias?
Nikos Dendias: Yes, Prime Minister. As well all know, the request by the leader of LAOS is that the military is deployed to quell the unrest in Athens primarily, and if necessary in other cities too. However, there is no constitutional or legal provision that enables the army of any other institution to compel the army to do that. The only special measure that can be taken is the delcaration of a State of Siege according to the Constitution, but it needs 180 votes to pass.
Kostas Karamanlis: Thank you. Now, as we all know, there is not even the slightest chance that a proposal from the government for the invocation of a state of siege according to article 48 of the Constitution – and even if it was, it doesn’t empower the government to impose martial law or order the army to forcefully suppress any riot. It would backfire from every perspective.
Makis Voridis: Then why are we here, Prime Minister? You want the assent of the members of your Cabinet to continue the practices of idleness and defensiveness that this government champions from the day of our oath-swearing?
Kostas Karamanlis: I’m just presenting the facts before all of you. Neither I nor anyone else has the constitutional power to do what Mister Karatzaferis has been suggesting.
Prokopis Pavlopoulos: And the police are doing more than what they can.
Makis Voridis: Oh, here we go again. Mister Karamanlis, what is this now – are you telling us members of the Cabinet who want action to shut up?
Kostas Karamanlis: Look, I know you don’t want you to –
Makis Voridis: Prime Minister, our party leader has advised us to insist on this, or we – Mrs Arapoglou and myself – are going to withdraw from this meeting.
Kostas Karamanlis: And what, wait outside?
Both Voridis and Arapoglou were now standing up from the chairs.
Makis Voridis: Now, we’re going to our party’s offices to meet with Mister Karatzaferis and the party’s officials to decide what to do next. Please excuse us.
This was a big surprise for everyone in the room – no less so for the Prime Minister. But it was worse from him than being between a rock and hard place; he couldn’t try to keep them in the room and doing so would be most humiliating, and Kostas certainly didn’t need another humiliation on top of all the others. But doing nothing would be a complicit acceptance of his weakness in front of the some most influential figures in his party.
Kostas Karamanlis: As you wish; we will talk again.
Makis Voridis: I think it’s Mister Karatzaferis you should expect to have a talk with.
Kostas Karamanlis: Either way, Mister Voridis. Mrs Arapoglou.
Dimitra Arapoglou: Prime Minister.
What just happened?
What is Karatzaferis up to again?
Next: Chapter 10 - A Suspicious Silence
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Indymedia: Prominent left-wing/far-left/anarchist (suffered from purges a few years later) forum which has been operating from the Polytechnic. The authorities have repeatedly tried to shut it down.
Dekemvriana: “Events of December”. The term is widely used to describe the 1944 Battle of Athens between the leftist EAM on the one side and the forces of the Greek government and the British troops that landed in Athens to reinforce them on the other. The December of 2008 has been named by some as "Second Dekemvriana".
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IOTL, the possibility was actually brought forward by some members of the cabinet (who exactly was never disclosed) and discussed in the cabinet meeting of that day. It's constitutionally impossible to do anything else than a State of Siege; the Constitution says that courts martial don't have jurisdiction over private citizens.
If somehow it did happen, aside from the huge domestic backlash, I think the EU would tolerate it for a short period of 24-48 hours, if the government argued strongly about its necessity. Either way, I think the problem imo is it would backfire, for the reasons the characters ITTL explained.
Makes sense. A lot of Latin American countries are the same way - though as you can tell from reading the histories of individual Latin American countries, the state of siege got abused A LOT. So I can understand if there is similar sentiment in Greece, considering its history of coups, counter-coups, and attempted coups.
Definitely, which is why I asked if Greece would be expelled from both the Euro and the EU, and in the former case forcing Greece to return to the drachma, making inflation go up and making the drachma worthless at the same time.
Yeah, after 1974 anything of that kind would be met with severe hostility and reaction by everyone from the centre to the left.
It's not so much about the coups, counter-coups and attempted coups (apart from the 1967 coup and the King's attempted counter-coup in 1973, only during the 20s and the 30s this was a frequent thing and have been forgotten - except, ofc, Metaxas), it's more the "measures" that made everyone who was leftist, left sympathiser and not liked by the police literally a second-class citizen (or worse), the so-called "Para-Constitution" during the 1936/1945-1974.
I guess if Greece left/leaves the eurozone, the currency would lose value due to devaluation/"printing" which the government would immediately have to do rather than any other factor. But hyperinflation would be another story entirely, it wouldn't happen (simply) due to inflation - the one doesn't lead to another by itself, that's a notion introduced by the Austrian school (Von Mises in particular), but that's another discussion maybe.
But of course.
I guess if Greece left/leaves the eurozone, the currency would lose value due to devaluation/"printing" which the government would immediately have to do rather than any other factor. But hyperinflation would be another story entirely, it wouldn't happen (simply) due to inflation - the one doesn't lead to another by itself, that's a notion introduced by the Austrian school (Von Mises in particular), but that's another discussion maybe.
True - I'm just thinking that ordinary Greeks would probably be desperate enough to retain as many Euros as possible since the new drachma wouldn't be seen as "credible". But that's another discussion, maybe.
Anyway, I'll shut my mouth now and wait for the next update.
But of course.
True - I'm just thinking that ordinary Greeks would probably be desperate enough to retain as many Euros as possible since the new drachma wouldn't be seen as "credible". But that's another discussion, maybe.
Anyway, I'll shut my mouth now and wait for the next update.
That's certainly what would happen (or rather, one of the bazillion things)
I think I'll be announcing the Title of the next chapter from now own so:
Next: Chapter 10 - A Suspicious Silence
Chapter 10: A Suspicious Silence, Part 1
Ta Nea, 13 December 2008 paper. Front page.
LAOS about to get out of government?
Karamanlis government has one foot in the grave
Karamanlis government has one foot in the grave
Leaks coming out from the LAOS Headquarters during the last few hours have been subtly hinting at a possible walkout from the government which would lead to its collapse. This after reports that the Prime Minister and Mr. Karatzaferis, the leader of LAOS, have been heavily disagreeing over the course of action the government and security forces should take in face of the unrest of the last few days. Two government MPs have, under condition of anonymity, released to our political correspondent some spicy details from the last cabinet meeting which you will find on page 11. The rift, while unpleasant for both New Democracy and the People’s Orthodox Rally, did not come out of the blue, as the moderate ND under Kostas Karmanlis has moved to the centre long before the recent intra-governmental disagreements emerged and in fact, even before it came to government. But in this time of crisis, when a strong and united government is needed, we cannot afford to have major points of disagreement about what to do next. Only a few hours have passed since leaks came out of plans to possibly impose martial law and/or bring out the army to impose order in Athens and nobody can confirm or deny the government's intentions.
The outcome of the current crisis remains to be seen, however the direction things have taken point to a change in the government operates if it is to survive. However, despite the fact that Karatzaferis and his more hardcore rightist party have gained leverage due to emphasising their "uncompromising law and order enforcement at all costs" policy during the current social crisis, he does not have all the chips in this particular game. He cannot threaten to attach his party's support to PASOK as they wouldn't have a majority or plurality in Parliament - and that's not even taking into account political concerns. Therefore, either LAOS will retire their ministers and continue to support the government externally in major votes, or the current deal will continue as is possibly with new terms and conditions, or we're heading for fresh elections. Details inside.
Prime Minister's Office, Maximos Mansion.
The Maximos Mansion is a fine building. It used to belong to a ship magnate, hence the name, but it has been the official residence of the Prime Minister since 1982. In a way, its history resembles the history of the governments which it has housed. Its foundations were put in place in 1912 and it took a whole decade to build; government projects are not more speedy. It changed hands quite some times until the 50s, when it was sold to the government at half price by former Prime Minister Dimitrios Maximos; not unlike the building, governments have been based on the goodwill of rich private citizens when it comes to the personal benefit of their members and you need a statesman to act as a liaision to actually get a result. And of course, right after the liberation of the country following the Second World War, it was the temporary residence of the American ambassador long before any Prime Minister set foot in. This does not even need a comment.
Inside the office, there was a mid-aged, pretty fat man with a tranquil face which inspired trust and confidence in many people. But his mood at that particular moment was certainly not tranquil at all and the voice heard from inside the door of his office was a tastament to the heat in the conversation of which he was part. But the man inside was alone, his interlocutor was on the other end of the phone line and was in an office at Kallirois Avenue. The discussion was not going well.
".... What do you mean by "some idiot?" There were thirty five people in the room, and only two of them would have any reason to do that!"
"Yes, of course I do, George, but there's simply no way it was one of my ministers! I'm not saying you told them to do that, but things are simple here, I'm having leaks at the most critical point of my premiership since I took office!
"I don't doubt that, but let me remind you that it was your ministers who made a scene in the last cabinet meeting and basically threatened me to do as you please in the first place! Do you want me to remind you who actually leads this government?"
"I fully know my responsibilities, I don't need a lecture from you on tha - no, don't make this a personal thing - I said, I don't need a lecture neither from you nor from any one else about the responsbilities of this office. I have quite some experience in it."
"Do as you bid, Mister Karatzaferis. However, I do believe that despite our differences, the welfare of the country and the good of your own party needs you in government."
"Please do that, but I would advise you to hurry. I understand you and your party will have to make some difficult decisions, but that is also true of me and my government."
"We'll be in touch. Thank you."
I made a bad habit out of trying to write massive updates at once which doesn't work - at least for me (I suspect that's also true for many others as well). So I'm doing smaller but more frequent ones from now on.
Yes, I read it - it's indeed accurate and discussion-provoking. Especially some parts of it provide will, in a way, find themselves in this timeline.