The Revenge of the Crown : An Alternate 1812 and Beyond.

[unprincipled peter]

First great update and very nice touch of writing about the first salvos of the American civil war and then going away. Awesome planning. Leave everyone in anticipation. Lol

The way things are playing out the biggest threat to Mexico will actually be possible English speaking settlers being discontent with rule from Mexico City. We know that in reality not very king or prime minister will be great snd some just mediocre (hopefully none awful). The huge expanses to reach the northern territories make it hard and expensive to not only settle but to patrol. With part of the territories full of natives who will attack Mexicans or Americans equally. The easiest way to get to Texas and California is by ship. So their future (especially northern territories) not guarantee. You gave also given Mexico a lot of southern territory too. Will we see problems in Yucatan or other iotl Central American countries.

Mexico if not careful could be ripped apart from competing interests.

I can also see that British investors approach Mexico about creating a Canal. The obvious location be the aborted Nicaragua site.

Or.....
The english speakers could be folks looking to escape the lunacy of the disUnited States and finding a nice home/future in a stable/sane Mexico. The roles are being reversed here: USA is not stable, while Mexico is. The USA experiment is not going so well, so far. NE, almost magically, has bounced back way too quickly from the drubbing they took, but the rump USA has been battered and torn, and now is in the middle of a civil war. No matter how the civil war ends up, we should not expect the country (or countries) to be anything resembling a robust nation worthy of admiration/imitation. So, the setup so far should see the Mexico Northern newcomers content enough to remain with Mexico. If they can remain in this state for a generation or two, a national sense of Mexican identity should emerge, which will survive a less than stellar King. Plus, a generation or two of stability and growth will see the remote expanses shrink, just like it did for the US.

In this TL, look for a lot of immigration (that OTL went to USA) going to the opportunities that await them in a stable Mexico. This will dilute the US migrants.

an OTL Texas scenario is not necessarily a good, or likely, option.

Or, the northerners might ignore the shit show going on beyond their northern borders, and say we can do that better, and secede.

 

[Nenshou Yuuki]

Or, the northerners might ignore the shit show going on beyond their northern borders, and say we can do that better, and secede.

Aren't they doing that already?

 

[unprincipled peter]

Aren't they doing that already?

northern Mexico.

 

[Northstar]

Regarding Mexico; because I'm a little bit odd, a few weeks ago I was watching this video on the geopolitics of Mexico:

It might give you some idea of the difficulties that Mexico City might have in administering/retaining areas like California and Tejas.

It's not just the diplomatic situation that is against a united Mexico, but the geographic one as well. Of course, ITTL the former issues can be resolved, but the latter issues - the geographic ones - will be relevant in any ATL. It's just something to consider when deciding what will happen with Mexico (or at least Mexico north of the Big River).

Northstar

 

[Sarthak]

First great update and very nice touch of writing about the first salvos of the American civil war and then going away. Awesome planning. Leave everyone in anticipation. Lol

Thanks!

The way things are playing out the biggest threat to Mexico will actually be possible English speaking settlers being discontent with rule from Mexico City. We know that in reality not very king or prime minister will be great snd some just mediocre (hopefully none awful). The huge expanses to reach the northern territories make it hard and expensive to not only settle but to patrol. With part of the territories full of natives who will attack Mexicans or Americans equally. The easiest way to get to Texas and California is by ship. So their future (especially northern territories) not guarantee. You gave also given Mexico a lot of southern territory too. Will we see problems in Yucatan or other iotl Central American countries.

Mexico if not careful could be ripped apart from competing interests.

Indeed, Mexico whilst far better than OTL, still has aplenty of underlying problems.......

I can also see that British investors approach Mexico about creating a Canal. The obvious location be the aborted Nicaragua site.

Hm, we will see.

 

[Sarthak]

Or.....
The english speakers could be folks looking to escape the lunacy of the disUnited States and finding a nice home/future in a stable/sane Mexico. The roles are being reversed here: USA is not stable, while Mexico is. The USA experiment is not going so well, so far. NE, almost magically, has bounced back way too quickly from the drubbing they took, but the rump USA has been battered and torn, and now is in the middle of a civil war. No matter how the civil war ends up, we should not expect the country (or countries) to be anything resembling a robust nation worthy of admiration/imitation. So, the setup so far should see the Mexico Northern newcomers content enough to remain with Mexico. If they can remain in this state for a generation or two, a national sense of Mexican identity should emerge, which will survive a less than stellar King. Plus, a generation or two of stability and growth will see the remote expanses shrink, just like it did for the US.

In this TL, look for a lot of immigration (that OTL went to USA) going to the opportunities that await them in a stable Mexico. This will dilute the US migrants.

an OTL Texas scenario is not necessarily a good, or likely, option.

Or, the northerners might ignore the shit show going on beyond their northern borders, and say we can do that better, and secede.

Indeed, Mexico still has a lot of problems to deal with, but yes in comparison to what is going on in America, Mexico looks a whole lot better for immigrants right now ITTL.

 

[Sarthak]

Regarding Mexico; because I'm a little bit odd, a few weeks ago I was watching this video on the geopolitics of Mexico:

It might give you some idea of the difficulties that Mexico City might have in administering/retaining areas like California and Tejas.

It's not just the diplomatic situation that is against a united Mexico, but the geographic one as well. Of course, ITTL the former issues can be resolved, but the latter issues - the geographic ones - will be relevant in any ATL. It's just something to consider when deciding what will happen with Mexico (or at least Mexico north of the Big River).

Northstar

Indeed. Whilst Mexico is in a far far better position ITTL and enviable in comparison to America ITTL, geography will continue to bite them in the back. Something that will lead to problems down in the lines.....

 

[Lusitania]

Indeed. Whilst Mexico is in a far far better position ITTL and enviable in comparison to America ITTL, geography will continue to bite them in the back. Something that will lead to problems down in the lines.....

Why I said easiest way from Mexico City to either California or Texas (until train) is by ship. But if the iotl US not have Mississippi River to transport things or Erie Canal to Great Lakes it too would of been hard pressed to moved thing into the interior. Luckily it had both the favorable geography and $ to invest in canals prior to railroad.

here Mexico not have geography on its side but ocean on both sides and trade could and should be flowing along both Caribbean and Pacific Ocean ports then inland.

 

[Sarthak]

Why I said easiest way from Mexico City to either California or Texas (until train) is by ship. But if the iotl US not have Mississippi River to transport things or Erie Canal to Great Lakes it too would of been hard pressed to moved thing into the interior. Luckily it had both the favorable geography and $ to invest in canals prior to railroad.

here Mexico not have geography on its side but ocean on both sides and trade could and should be flowing along both Caribbean and Pacific Ocean ports then inland.

Indeed. In order to further their goals, seafaring tradition is something that Mexico will take up later on.

 

[unprincipled peter]

Why I said easiest way from Mexico City to either California or Texas (until train) is by ship. But if the iotl US not have Mississippi River to transport things or Erie Canal to Great Lakes it too would of been hard pressed to moved thing into the interior. Luckily it had both the favorable geography and $ to invest in canals prior to railroad.

here Mexico not have geography on its side but ocean on both sides and trade could and should be flowing along both Caribbean and Pacific Ocean ports then inland.

To be fair, at this point in the TTL (or even OTL), the easiest way to get from the populated/manufacturing areas of USA to California or Texas is by ocean. Texas gets easier sooner, but California/West coast has similar issues from either Mexico or USA. In the '49er gold rush, a main route to get to the gold fields was by ship to the east coast of Mexico or Panama, then over land to the West Coast, and then by ship on up to California.

At this point, the wreck of a USA looking to flee industrialization should have no advantage over a Mexico getting a boost in stability, especially on the West Coast. We should not taint our predictions of what happens now (TTL 1825) with hindsight from a world that no longer exists.

Mexico's threat comes not from USA, but from Britain. They are currently cozying up, but OTL BNA had cast covetous eyes on the Oregon Territory, all the way down to San Francisco, and that should certainly be the case here. Meanwhile, rump USA probably still has leftover desire for the region, but is suffering setback after setback in trying to advance as a nation. OTL, Spanish/Mexican claims to the region were ignored by Britain/USA, but it's a different world TTL.

 

[Ficboy]

If The Revenge of the Crown had its own TV Tropes page then I think it would fall under these tropes so far:
* Allohistorical Allusion:
Two of the major American political parties after the dissolution of the Democratic-Republicans are the Whigs led by Henry Clay and the Democrats led by James Monroe.
The Indiana-Mississippi Compromise is similar to OTL's Missouri Compromise only with Indiana admitted as a free state and Mississippi as a slave state.
Fugitive slaves escape to Mishigama and Canada.
The United States experiences an economic crisis after the War of 1812 only much worse.
The Civil War occurs in the 1820s over the issue of slavery. Additionally Richmond, Virginia is the capital of the United States during the conflict or more accurately it serves a temporary role in place of Washington DC.
* Balkanize Me: Happens not once, not twice but at least three times:
The Treaty of Ghent results in all of Michigan and Wisconsin as well as portions of Ohio and Illinois ceded to the newly formed Crown Protectorate of Mishigama.
The states of Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Vermont and New Hampshire secede from the Union and become the Commonwealth of New England. Additionally, a portion of Upstate New York is given to New England while areas of present day Buffalo and Rochester go to Canada.
Another secession occurs this time with the North or what's left of it deciding to create the Federation of America.
* Fallen States of America: The United States quickly becomes a realistic version of this trope after the War of 1812
* Fictional Political Party: The American National Party is founded by John C. Calhoun and Andrew Jackson to represent Southern interests in the Union.
* For a Want of a Nail: Or rather for a want of one Isaac Brock surviving the Battle of Queenstown Heights.
* From Bad to Worse: America loses the War of 1812 and it only goes down from there.
* Irony: It is the North or what's left of it that ultimately chooses to secede from the United States with John C. Calhoun as President during the crisis.
* Istanbul, Not Constantinople:
Chicago is here known as Shikaawa, the capital city of Mishigama
Mississippi contains the OTL state and Alabama.
Because Texas is still part of Mexico it is known by its Spanish name Tejas.
A portion of upstate New York is known as the State of Sarnac, one of the members of New England.
* Sketchy Successor: Up to Eleven in the cases of Henry Clay, Nathan Sanford and John C. Calhoun. Clay was elected President after the disastrous administration of James Madison and enacts unpopular policies such as enacting protective tariffs from the American Economic System and the formation of the American Colonization Society (ACS) thus this would result in his death at the hands of an assassin in Maryland. Sanford on the other hand could not save America from its economic crisis. Calhoun and the Nationals take over the White House thanks to the failures of the Whigs.
* Shown Their Work: The author read numerous books on the War of 1812 to create a realistic British victory in the conflict.

 

[Ficboy]

Based on some of the in-universe history books such as How Democracy Gave Way to Autocracy and The Early Life of the American Republic, 1784-1827 not to mention TTL's *Civil War and Britain and New England not aiding the Federation of America it will likely end in a victory for the South. Then again it could go the other way and the Federation of America secedes successfully from the Union and thus the end of the United States. A successful Northern secession for scenario 2 would mean an even more balkanized North America comprised of the Commonwealth of New England, the Crown Protectorate of Mishigama, the Kingdom of Canada/Dominion of Canada, the Federation of America, the Mexican Empire and the Southern Confederation or whatever it is called.

 

[Sarthak]

A small wikibox i was doing in my freetime in the library!

 

[Noblesse Oblige]

Still gotta learn how to actually do those one day.

 

[Remington 2.0]

What the British long term plan for Mishigama,are they prepared to go to war with USA to defend Mishigama if the USA tries to reconquer it in the future and have the British and new Englanders considered copying the French action during the american revolution of sending supplies specially weapon/munitions and volunteers to help the north and undermine the USA

 

[LordTerra]

What the British long term plan for Mishigama,are they prepared to go to war with USA to defend Mishigama if the USA tries to reconquer it in the future and have the British and new Englanders considered copying the French action during the american revolution of sending supplies specially weapon/munitions and volunteers to help the north and undermine the USA

Well it's a crown colony by definition. It has a fair bit of autonomy but generally it will be considered British territory, the same as OTL Canada.

So if its invaded the UK will have to respond, though the British government could made various border/diplo deals with the US that Mishigama doesn't like and aggressively oppose due to their autonomy and army.

 

[Sarthak]

A small update with the Map of Mishigama just before the American Civil War ATL showing major forts, major settlements/towns/cities and major roads.

 

[Northstar]

View attachment 592910
A small update with the Map of Mishigama just before the American Civil War ATL showing major forts, major settlements/towns/cities and major roads.

Great to see a few small updates; I hadn't been checking specifically because I know you said that you were having a few weeks off for uni work. (I should probably follow your lead.)

Quick question: how come Mishigama ends up with Isle Royale? I would have thought that it would be more likely to go to Canada ITTL seeing as BNA extends much further south here and that IOTL the British didn't cede the island to the USA until 1783.

See: "Isle Royale was given to the United States by the 1783 treaty with Great Britain, but the British remained in control until after the War of 1812, and the Ojibwa peoples considered the island to be their territory. The Ojibwas ceded the island to the U.S. in the 1842 Treaty of La Pointe, with the Grand Portage Band unaware that neither they nor Isle Royale were in British territory. With the clarification to the Ojibwas of the 1842 Webster–Ashburton Treaty that was signed before the Treaty of La Pointe, the Ojibwas re-affirmed the 1842 Treaty of La Pointe in the 1844 Isle Royale Agreement, with the Grand Portage Band signing the agreement as an addendum to the 1842 treaty." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_Royale)

IMO, the British are more likely to have the mindset of "we've just given you a massive homeland so we'll keep this island" ITTL.

Looking forward to the return of this TL, Sārthākā.

Northstar

EDIT: Here's a map that might be useful to consider: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_La_Pointe#/media/File:IsleRoyaleAgreement.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_La_Pointe#1844_Isle_Royale_Agreement)

 

[Sarthak]

Great to see a few small updates; I hadn't been checking specifically because I know you said that you were having a few weeks off for uni work. (I should probably follow your lead.)

Quick question: how come Mishigama ends up with Isle Royale? I would have thought that it would be more likely to go to Canada ITTL seeing as BNA extends much further south here and that IOTL the British didn't cede the island to the USA until 1783.

See: "Isle Royale was given to the United States by the 1783 treaty with Great Britain, but the British remained in control until after the War of 1812, and the Ojibwa peoples considered the island to be their territory. The Ojibwas ceded the island to the U.S. in the 1842 Treaty of La Pointe, with the Grand Portage Band unaware that neither they nor Isle Royale were in British territory. With the clarification to the Ojibwas of the 1842 Webster–Ashburton Treaty that was signed before the Treaty of La Pointe, the Ojibwas re-affirmed the 1842 Treaty of La Pointe in the 1844 Isle Royale Agreement, with the Grand Portage Band signing the agreement as an addendum to the 1842 treaty." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_Royale)

IMO, the British are more likely to have the mindset of "we've just given you a massive homeland so we'll keep this island" ITTL.

Looking forward to the return of this TL, Sārthākā.

Northstar

EDIT: Here's a map that might be useful to consider: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_La_Pointe#/media/File:IsleRoyaleAgreement.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_La_Pointe#1844_Isle_Royale_Agreement)

Isle Royale is a part of Mishigama. Mainly to the Ojibwe people, mainly because of the fact that Mishigama is a British protectorate and because the island is small enough Britain isn't losing anything from giving it to Mishigama.

 

[Northstar]

Isle Royale is a part of Mishigama. Mainly to the Ojibwe people, mainly because of the fact that Mishigama is a British protectorate and because the island is small enough Britain isn't losing anything from giving it to Mishigama.

Fair enough! If you change your mind, then my suggestion is the blue line!

https://imgur.com/XdUm9Kt

Northstar