If Japan does have a Meiji reformation 50 years early it will radically change Asian history indeed.
The Revenge of the Crown : An Alternate 1812 and Beyond.
- Thread starter Sarthak
- Start date
Remington 2.0
Banned
What the status of Mexico military as of last update and what their position on having a Bourbon French king next door?
Probably a natural strategic ally against America. It helps that Louisiana would never be able to threaten Mexico population wise, though the meetings between the two monarchs are going to be very awkward.
Its gonna be worse with Carlist Argentina considering how the Spanish Royal family was held captive by Napoleon.
Its likely going to be a buffer state. Though it does have a lot of resources, so by the time of the later 19th Century when oil is discovered, it can make a huge killing off it. With its access to the Missippi River basin which is one of the most fertile and navigable waterways in the world, Louisana would likely be a major agrarian center. This could lead to an eventual population explosion. You could also see French investment spread there which would also likely boos industrialization as well.
As for demographics, it would likely be a melting pot of the Anglophone, Francophone, and Hispanic world.
True. Though I wonder if China might modernize somewhat more, being worried about Japan.
Japan maybe the country that takes Alaska from Russia if it opens up earlier and if no enterprising British colonists from Vancouver do so.
Also with Spanish colonies in turmoil the colonists and investors in British Honduras/Belize may decide to expend a little south and west as it is about 250 miles between the Port of San Jose on the Pacific coast and Puerto Barrio even less if ships could sail into Lago de Izabal sure the eastern part would be steep but it would be shorter then sailing around Cape Horn to deliver goods to and from the Pacific.
Also with Spanish colonies in turmoil the colonists and investors in British Honduras/Belize may decide to expend a little south and west as it is about 250 miles between the Port of San Jose on the Pacific coast and Puerto Barrio even less if ships could sail into Lago de Izabal sure the eastern part would be steep but it would be shorter then sailing around Cape Horn to deliver goods to and from the Pacific.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Will the EIC even bother with China in the short term? Japan will provide lucrative markets and has a native tea production. I doubt whether the Opium Wars are actually economically necessary for the EIC ITTL. That is not to say it will be an easy task to sustain a British presence in Japan but the resources committed to Japan may mean that the EIC interests in China are very much peripheral, being confined to silk and porcelain
Having said that, the opium trade should already be building between India and China so maybe the EIC will try for it all. Although in this case the UK may be less inclined to support them militarily
Knowing China's mentality at the time, I wonder if it will still be a slow start.
I am going to go against the general trend and propose the USA will not suffer total defeat.
The fact the conflict with the Federals is called the Civil War instead of "*Insert* War of Independence" is a clue.
Theory time:
As to what I think will happen, I think the USA will retake most of the Federal territory and a chunk of Northern Louisiana. I think Louis Phillipe will be part be to blame. American territory being broken off into other republics is one thing but a Catholic monarchy being erected I think will rub many Americans the wrong way. In the USA it will invigorate the wars supporters and swing many fence sitters to support the USA's war efforts. And in the north it could galvinize Unionists who i expect are still quite present, and even flip some people.
Spain's landgrab will contributer to this view of the war being a conspiracy of European pri nces to destroy the republican dream.
Louisiana will suffer push back in its Northern reaches and loss territory because France will not be willing to fight for full claims. Most of the leadership too will be willing I think to accept less for recognition, especially if it can serve to lower the number of Anglophones.
The North I see essentially breaking first as its been noted this war is pushing both sides too the brink. I admit I am not sure of the how at this point so many things still in the air. But I do not think it will lead to the whole rebel territory being brought into line.
At the very least I am thinking New York State will survive as a Republic of New York; possibly incorpoating neighboring rebel territory. This could result from New England Britain and possibly Mishigama in the face of the rebels collapse wating a buffer too alliance territory and threatening war if the last basyion is invaded. And the USA agreeing because in addition to not being able to afford a war with the three nations they already are stretched holding the land they have retaken.
The war ends in a draw of sorts with the USA curbing one rebellion and subduing most of the other but still losing territory and gaining two new hostile states as neighbors.
For the USA, proslavery and xenophobia quickly become the order of the day with the Free States being 'dens of treason' and 'foreigners' like the Francophones and secret monarchists and the like are "conspiring to destroy America". Thus culiminates in an effective collapse of democracy as a populist dictatorship emerges under the banner of 'national salvation' with the country declared under siege by hostile powers and infiltrated by rebels and foreign agents.
Dark times dawn for the USA as the ciuntry learns the wrong lessons from the war.
The fact the conflict with the Federals is called the Civil War instead of "*Insert* War of Independence" is a clue.
Theory time:
As to what I think will happen, I think the USA will retake most of the Federal territory and a chunk of Northern Louisiana. I think Louis Phillipe will be part be to blame. American territory being broken off into other republics is one thing but a Catholic monarchy being erected I think will rub many Americans the wrong way. In the USA it will invigorate the wars supporters and swing many fence sitters to support the USA's war efforts. And in the north it could galvinize Unionists who i expect are still quite present, and even flip some people.
Spain's landgrab will contributer to this view of the war being a conspiracy of European pri nces to destroy the republican dream.
Louisiana will suffer push back in its Northern reaches and loss territory because France will not be willing to fight for full claims. Most of the leadership too will be willing I think to accept less for recognition, especially if it can serve to lower the number of Anglophones.
The North I see essentially breaking first as its been noted this war is pushing both sides too the brink. I admit I am not sure of the how at this point so many things still in the air. But I do not think it will lead to the whole rebel territory being brought into line.
At the very least I am thinking New York State will survive as a Republic of New York; possibly incorpoating neighboring rebel territory. This could result from New England Britain and possibly Mishigama in the face of the rebels collapse wating a buffer too alliance territory and threatening war if the last basyion is invaded. And the USA agreeing because in addition to not being able to afford a war with the three nations they already are stretched holding the land they have retaken.
The war ends in a draw of sorts with the USA curbing one rebellion and subduing most of the other but still losing territory and gaining two new hostile states as neighbors.
For the USA, proslavery and xenophobia quickly become the order of the day with the Free States being 'dens of treason' and 'foreigners' like the Francophones and secret monarchists and the like are "conspiring to destroy America". Thus culiminates in an effective collapse of democracy as a populist dictatorship emerges under the banner of 'national salvation' with the country declared under siege by hostile powers and infiltrated by rebels and foreign agents.
Dark times dawn for the USA as the ciuntry learns the wrong lessons from the war.
Lusitania
Donor
In such a conflict I could see British capturing northern Louisiana and attempting to keep USA on the eastern side of Mississipi.
I’m starting to get hyped at the idea of a Japan modernizing earlier defeating a colonial power in the 1870s a victory when a far bigger part of the world was still independent will have bigger resonance .
That’s certainly more creative than just having Britain buy it.
If there a Japanese’s Alaska they would probably take it in a war I don’t see Russia selling it to them . But what are the odds of a French or Prussian Alaska ? Or let’s be a little crazy a Mexican one
Lusitania
Donor
I was thinking if Japan modernized 30 years ahead of schedule then depending on Russia situation Japan could attack it during or after Crimea (or equivalent) war gaining all of Russia Far East or huge portion. Including Alaska. Now that would complete change things.
Regarding the idea of a USA victory over the Federals:
I do not think it would end up like OTL Post Civil War South. I think the former Federal states would continue not just resentment but resistance with a sizable part of the populace fighting for the Northern Cause with terror tactics, and the increasingly dictatorial USA worsening the situation with reprisals. Add to that I would expect various levels of covert support from abroad.
In short The North becomes a running sore for the USA with chronic unrest and terrorism and periodic attempts at igniting a new revolt. Perhaps call the movement the Freesoilers? Refering not only to their opposition to the slaver dominance in the USA but opposition to the increasing authoritarianism in the government. "The sacred soil of the North shall be freed from the yoke of tyranny even if a dozen generations must bleed for this holy cause!"
I could see that happening. If Russia loses a war between them and they still have Alaska it would be something they'd be more willing to part with than mainland Asian territory i expect. And for Japan such a massive land grab looks great on the map and propaganda, and getting their own colony there would be a way to officially buy in to the colonial club as it were. And it would be fascinating how Japanese Alaska would develop socially and economically.
I do not think it would end up like OTL Post Civil War South. I think the former Federal states would continue not just resentment but resistance with a sizable part of the populace fighting for the Northern Cause with terror tactics, and the increasingly dictatorial USA worsening the situation with reprisals. Add to that I would expect various levels of covert support from abroad.
In short The North becomes a running sore for the USA with chronic unrest and terrorism and periodic attempts at igniting a new revolt. Perhaps call the movement the Freesoilers? Refering not only to their opposition to the slaver dominance in the USA but opposition to the increasing authoritarianism in the government. "The sacred soil of the North shall be freed from the yoke of tyranny even if a dozen generations must bleed for this holy cause!"
I could see that happening. If Russia loses a war between them and they still have Alaska it would be something they'd be more willing to part with than mainland Asian territory i expect. And for Japan such a massive land grab looks great on the map and propaganda, and getting their own colony there would be a way to officially buy in to the colonial club as it were. And it would be fascinating how Japanese Alaska would develop socially and economically.
Chapter 21: Changing Fortunes
Chapter 21: Changing Fortunes
***
“On January 16th, 1826, amid the cold season and light snows, the French troops based in New Orleans, under the command of General Damremont and numbering 7,500 started their campaign in Southern United States, named the ‘Dixie Campaign’. The name itself is derived from the fact that the notes prescribed to the soldiers during the campaign had the word Dix inscribed on them, and with no particular name available for the campaign, the campaign was later relegated as the Dixie Campaign. As such the name Dixie became a nickname for the southern United States of America, soon afterwards.
General Damremont.
Nonetheless, the troops that Damremont commanded were all veterans of the Napoleonic Wars. And whilst America too had war veterans, the scale of fighting that the Americans were used to and the scale of fighting that the Napoleonic veterans were used to were far far different and in that regard, the Napoleonic veterans far outstripped their American counterparts. In the state of Mississippi [1] there was panic on what to do, as almost all of the American regulars were sent to fight off the Federal States of America, and the state militia, some 7,000 strong was in no way capable of handling the veteran French troops that threatened to march all across Mississippi.
[1] – The state of Mississippi contains both otl states of Mississippi and Alabama ittl.
The state’s governor, Israel Pickens ordered the conscription of 10,000 men into the militia, and asked Georgia and the nearby states to provide their garrisoning regular troops as backup for his state. The 76th American Infantry Regiment, 87th American Infantry Division, 54th American Infantry Division, 88th Infantry Division and the 16th Heavy Artillery Division from the Regular army was diverted downwards by the American government to deal with the oncoming French troops.
A corporal in the Mississippian Militia.
When the campaign started, the Americans in the vicinity had around 16,000 men of which 4,000 were from the regular army and 90 guns. Their order of battle was:-
A painting depicting the Comanche fighters during the battle.
On January 20th, the French Army became visible to the American army as the French army started to march across the Mound and Delta region with the intention of crossing the river. The 16th Heavy Artillery Regiment started to fire at the river and the French troops, missing in most cases, however the French troops, not flinching at the sound of the guns and shells, they had endured much worse in Waterloo, Leipzig, Northern Italy and Spain and crossed the river, gaining a foothold in the eastern banks of the river by 11 am in the morning of January 20. Immediately they were put under assault by the 88th Infantry Regiment, 87th Infantry Regiment and the 8th Rifle Regiment. However, the French troops on the eastern bank, majority of them from the 34th Regiment de Grenadiers stood their ground and fought back, holding the footholds with determination. They did not give up an inch of soil, and managed to repel multiple headlong attacks from the Americans. By 11:45 am, the heavy guns of the French were brought forward on the eastern bank of the river and started to fire at the Americans, breaking their ranks, and forcing them to turn back from wasteful headlong attacks at the determined French grenadiers.
French Grenadiers
By 1 majority of the French troops had managed to cross the river into their footholds. However despite the fact that the French troops were able to resist the Americans, they themselves were not able to break out from their footholds and Damremont feared that his troops were being pinned down in their footholds. However Damremont had a trick above his sleeve. Far to the north, near the Albermarie lake, the Comanche Warriors had crossed the river starting from 10 am in complete silence, and their leaders had veered them south after crossing the river, and by 1:45 am, they came crashing down on the flanks of the American army and with their flanks completely in disarray, the American army was forced to retreat and fight another day. The Battle of Vicksburg ended when the French Grenadiers entered Vicksburg at around 3 pm and hoisted the French flag atop the burning ruins of the town hall.
The Battle of Vicksburg saw 270 Frenchmen become casualties of war, whilst the Americans saw around 700 of their own become casualties of the battle. Vicksburg was a decisive battle. For now, the rest of the Southern plains were wide open to a French offensive……” The War of Louisianan Independence, University of New Orleans, 1988.
General John Coffee
“In the north, however, one General John Coffee was successful in his endeavor to catch the Federal Army of Ohio off guard. Near New Richmond at the border of Kentucky and Ohio, Coffee’s Army of Kentucky managed to catch the Federal Army of Ohio offguard and managed to defeat it in the Battle of New Richmond, with its commander William Henry Ashley just barely being able to save his army from total destruction, and instead withdrew back from the frontlines into the East Fork Forest in Ohio, where Coffee could not pursue, as the hostile Indians of the area were sure to attack him.” General Coffee: The Soldier, Penguin Publishing, 1889.
“The Imperial Mexican Army (IMA) had been at full alert the moment the American Civil War had started. The IMA at this point in time consisted of 40,000 regular troops, and around 90,000 irregulars spread out all across Mexico and its vast territories. The IMA’s regulars were in and of itself well trained and to, many degrees, well equipped. However the same could not be said of the irregulars, who were lightly equipped, and their training extremely lacking.
Mexican Regulars of the Imperial Mexican Army.
And another problem was the fact that other than the deployment north, to the American border incase of a spillover of the conflict, the IMA’s regulars were largely concentrated in Mexico City and Veracruz, and with the other territories coming under the garrisoning jurisdiction of the irregulars. So when the Great Central American Uprising began, Mexico had around 20,000 Irregulars in the region who were not equipped to fight a protracted guerilla war and were found to be quickly, easy pickings for the Central American bands of guerillas.
Mexican irregulars.
As such on January 31, 1826, Emperor Jose I was approached by a bill from the Chamber of Deputies which called for an expansion of the Mexican Regulars from 40,000 to 55,000 and irregulars were to be brought up to 2/3 of the standards of the regular troops. Jose I gave imperial assent to the bill and on the next day the bill became law. Quickly, an army of 10,000 was assembled in Mexico City under the command of General Vicente Filisola, who knew the area well, having been one of the chief generals who had annexed the region into Mexico in 1819. His second in command was Salvador Oreamuno, a native Costa Rican, who supported the Mexican Empire, as long as Costa Rican autonomy was respected by the government. He knew the area well too, which was going to become a great asset to Filisola.
General Vicente Filisola of the Imperial Mexican Army.
On February 7, 1826, the Imperial Mexican Army’s 3rd Army departed towards Central America with 10,000 troops to stamp down on the rebellion. Meanwhile in the capital itself, the Emperor and the Prime Minister, Pedro Velez were debating on what to do in regards to Central America after the war. Jose I supported territorial councils, however Velez supported a unitary autonomy for Central America. Whilst on this matter, the two could not find a solution, it was agreed that the Central American territories would be upgraded to full province status with all of its luxuries after the rebellion and uprising had been stamped down.” The Great Central American Uprising, Imperial University of Managua, 1976.
King Oscar I 'The Great' of Sweden-Norway.
“In Stockholm, the monarch of Sweden and Norway, King Charles XIV John of Sweden and by his Norwegian royal title, King Charles II John of Norway died of a stroke during his sleep on February 2nd, 1826. He was immediately succeeded by his son, Oscar I of both Norway and Sweden. Oscar I was a liberal monarch, and under his reign the United Kingdom of Sweden-Norway would continue to become tighter in its bonds, and after his death in 1861, he would be dubbed King Oscar I ‘The Great’ of Sweden-Norway. The second Swedish monarch to be given the title, and the first Norwegian monarch to be given the title. The Swedish-Norwegian Golden Era was about to begin.” The Age of Prosperity, University of Kristiana, 1998. [2]
[2] - Charles XIV John did have a stroke historically in 1826 but he survived it.
***
***
“On January 16th, 1826, amid the cold season and light snows, the French troops based in New Orleans, under the command of General Damremont and numbering 7,500 started their campaign in Southern United States, named the ‘Dixie Campaign’. The name itself is derived from the fact that the notes prescribed to the soldiers during the campaign had the word Dix inscribed on them, and with no particular name available for the campaign, the campaign was later relegated as the Dixie Campaign. As such the name Dixie became a nickname for the southern United States of America, soon afterwards.
General Damremont.
Nonetheless, the troops that Damremont commanded were all veterans of the Napoleonic Wars. And whilst America too had war veterans, the scale of fighting that the Americans were used to and the scale of fighting that the Napoleonic veterans were used to were far far different and in that regard, the Napoleonic veterans far outstripped their American counterparts. In the state of Mississippi [1] there was panic on what to do, as almost all of the American regulars were sent to fight off the Federal States of America, and the state militia, some 7,000 strong was in no way capable of handling the veteran French troops that threatened to march all across Mississippi.
[1] – The state of Mississippi contains both otl states of Mississippi and Alabama ittl.
The state’s governor, Israel Pickens ordered the conscription of 10,000 men into the militia, and asked Georgia and the nearby states to provide their garrisoning regular troops as backup for his state. The 76th American Infantry Regiment, 87th American Infantry Division, 54th American Infantry Division, 88th Infantry Division and the 16th Heavy Artillery Division from the Regular army was diverted downwards by the American government to deal with the oncoming French troops.
A corporal in the Mississippian Militia.
When the campaign started, the Americans in the vicinity had around 16,000 men of which 4,000 were from the regular army and 90 guns. Their order of battle was:-
- 76th Infantry Regiment
- 87th Infantry Regiment
- 54th Infantry Regiment
- 88th Infantry Regiment
- 16th Heavy Artillery Division
- 2nd Militia Regiment
- 6th Militia Regiment
- 9th Militia Regiment
- 7th Militia Regiment
- 5th Militia Regiment
- 8th Militia Regiment.
- 10th Militia Regiment
- 8th Militia Guns Regiment
- 8th Rifle Regiment.
- 54th Regiment of Ligne
- 105th Regiment de Ligne
- 19th Regiment de Ligne
- 3rd Regiment de Chavaux Legers
- 47th Regiment de Grenadiers
- 34th Regiment de Grenadiers
- 12th Regiment de Ligne
- 5th Louisianan Infantry Regiment
- The 3rd Penateka Comanche War Band.
A painting depicting the Comanche fighters during the battle.
On January 20th, the French Army became visible to the American army as the French army started to march across the Mound and Delta region with the intention of crossing the river. The 16th Heavy Artillery Regiment started to fire at the river and the French troops, missing in most cases, however the French troops, not flinching at the sound of the guns and shells, they had endured much worse in Waterloo, Leipzig, Northern Italy and Spain and crossed the river, gaining a foothold in the eastern banks of the river by 11 am in the morning of January 20. Immediately they were put under assault by the 88th Infantry Regiment, 87th Infantry Regiment and the 8th Rifle Regiment. However, the French troops on the eastern bank, majority of them from the 34th Regiment de Grenadiers stood their ground and fought back, holding the footholds with determination. They did not give up an inch of soil, and managed to repel multiple headlong attacks from the Americans. By 11:45 am, the heavy guns of the French were brought forward on the eastern bank of the river and started to fire at the Americans, breaking their ranks, and forcing them to turn back from wasteful headlong attacks at the determined French grenadiers.
French Grenadiers
By 1 majority of the French troops had managed to cross the river into their footholds. However despite the fact that the French troops were able to resist the Americans, they themselves were not able to break out from their footholds and Damremont feared that his troops were being pinned down in their footholds. However Damremont had a trick above his sleeve. Far to the north, near the Albermarie lake, the Comanche Warriors had crossed the river starting from 10 am in complete silence, and their leaders had veered them south after crossing the river, and by 1:45 am, they came crashing down on the flanks of the American army and with their flanks completely in disarray, the American army was forced to retreat and fight another day. The Battle of Vicksburg ended when the French Grenadiers entered Vicksburg at around 3 pm and hoisted the French flag atop the burning ruins of the town hall.
The Battle of Vicksburg saw 270 Frenchmen become casualties of war, whilst the Americans saw around 700 of their own become casualties of the battle. Vicksburg was a decisive battle. For now, the rest of the Southern plains were wide open to a French offensive……” The War of Louisianan Independence, University of New Orleans, 1988.
General John Coffee
“In the north, however, one General John Coffee was successful in his endeavor to catch the Federal Army of Ohio off guard. Near New Richmond at the border of Kentucky and Ohio, Coffee’s Army of Kentucky managed to catch the Federal Army of Ohio offguard and managed to defeat it in the Battle of New Richmond, with its commander William Henry Ashley just barely being able to save his army from total destruction, and instead withdrew back from the frontlines into the East Fork Forest in Ohio, where Coffee could not pursue, as the hostile Indians of the area were sure to attack him.” General Coffee: The Soldier, Penguin Publishing, 1889.
“The Imperial Mexican Army (IMA) had been at full alert the moment the American Civil War had started. The IMA at this point in time consisted of 40,000 regular troops, and around 90,000 irregulars spread out all across Mexico and its vast territories. The IMA’s regulars were in and of itself well trained and to, many degrees, well equipped. However the same could not be said of the irregulars, who were lightly equipped, and their training extremely lacking.
Mexican Regulars of the Imperial Mexican Army.
And another problem was the fact that other than the deployment north, to the American border incase of a spillover of the conflict, the IMA’s regulars were largely concentrated in Mexico City and Veracruz, and with the other territories coming under the garrisoning jurisdiction of the irregulars. So when the Great Central American Uprising began, Mexico had around 20,000 Irregulars in the region who were not equipped to fight a protracted guerilla war and were found to be quickly, easy pickings for the Central American bands of guerillas.
Mexican irregulars.
As such on January 31, 1826, Emperor Jose I was approached by a bill from the Chamber of Deputies which called for an expansion of the Mexican Regulars from 40,000 to 55,000 and irregulars were to be brought up to 2/3 of the standards of the regular troops. Jose I gave imperial assent to the bill and on the next day the bill became law. Quickly, an army of 10,000 was assembled in Mexico City under the command of General Vicente Filisola, who knew the area well, having been one of the chief generals who had annexed the region into Mexico in 1819. His second in command was Salvador Oreamuno, a native Costa Rican, who supported the Mexican Empire, as long as Costa Rican autonomy was respected by the government. He knew the area well too, which was going to become a great asset to Filisola.
General Vicente Filisola of the Imperial Mexican Army.
On February 7, 1826, the Imperial Mexican Army’s 3rd Army departed towards Central America with 10,000 troops to stamp down on the rebellion. Meanwhile in the capital itself, the Emperor and the Prime Minister, Pedro Velez were debating on what to do in regards to Central America after the war. Jose I supported territorial councils, however Velez supported a unitary autonomy for Central America. Whilst on this matter, the two could not find a solution, it was agreed that the Central American territories would be upgraded to full province status with all of its luxuries after the rebellion and uprising had been stamped down.” The Great Central American Uprising, Imperial University of Managua, 1976.
King Oscar I 'The Great' of Sweden-Norway.
“In Stockholm, the monarch of Sweden and Norway, King Charles XIV John of Sweden and by his Norwegian royal title, King Charles II John of Norway died of a stroke during his sleep on February 2nd, 1826. He was immediately succeeded by his son, Oscar I of both Norway and Sweden. Oscar I was a liberal monarch, and under his reign the United Kingdom of Sweden-Norway would continue to become tighter in its bonds, and after his death in 1861, he would be dubbed King Oscar I ‘The Great’ of Sweden-Norway. The second Swedish monarch to be given the title, and the first Norwegian monarch to be given the title. The Swedish-Norwegian Golden Era was about to begin.” The Age of Prosperity, University of Kristiana, 1998. [2]
[2] - Charles XIV John did have a stroke historically in 1826 but he survived it.
***
Was there seriously a general named Coffee? As in the beverage coffee?