The Red Baron's Mitteleuropa

[cortz#9]

Interesting idea for a TL. I personally however don't think MvR would mix politics with antisemitism. One of his best squadron leaders was Jewish (I can't remember his name right now, will look it up later) I would think MvR would respect anyone who had done his duty during "The Great War" regardless of race or religion.
Subscribed.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

That is why ITTL the Red Baron would be more inclined to give priority to Jewish scientists in helping him get an atomic bomb. You may expect to see Albert Einstein as the Red Baron's closest friend.

 

[Maponus]

Well, without Hitler National Socialism would be very different, and probably not even called National Socialism (if I remember correctly Hitler came up with the name).

You misremember, Hitler opposed the name.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

At least on the bright side, there would be more Jewish intellectuals that may contribute a lot to German scientific research.

 

[Chris Triangle]

Wilhelm II and his son would be mere figureheads, but they can try to share power with the Red Baron. After all, Richthofen still has a deep respect for the Kaiser.

You know, you're right. Since Wilhelm Wilhelm was overthrown any restoration would be able to define his powers because even he should have known that he was certainly not in a possition to bargain. I suppose a man like Richtofen and other aristocratic conservative types might want to reinstate him. Maybe the title could be downgraded to "king" so he doesn't forget that the rules have changed.

And by the way, there is NO way that any movement he will lead will not be anti-semitic in nature. All German nationalism at the time was anti-semitic.

Though we might like to tell ourselves otherwise, this is clearly very true.

While nationalists in most countries in Europe were very anti-semitic, the German variety had the potential to be especially dangerous for it was motivated not merely by blind hate and suspicion but was also an integral part of a kind of German nationalism that was popular among quite a number of "intellectuals". One of the most notorious of these people was Wagner.

Still, it is unlikely that the government in this TL would be so obsessed with this ideology. Sure, there would be anti-semitism among the leaders but being more conservative military men, they would probably have felt that they had more better things to do than obsess over the Jews. Fringe radical parties who maintained Hitler-like ideology would be a threat the new government and their activity would probably be suppressed along with other troublesome political competition.

 

[iddt3]

You know, you're right. Since Wilhelm Wilhelm was overthrown any restoration would be able to define his powers because even he should have known that he was certainly not in a possition to bargain. I suppose a man like Richtofen and other aristocratic conservative types might want to reinstate him. Maybe the title could be downgraded to "king" so he doesn't forget that the rules have changed.

Though we might like to tell ourselves otherwise, this is clearly very true.

While nationalists in most countries in Europe were very anti-semitic, the German variety had the potential to be especially dangerous for it was motivated not merely by blind hate and suspicion but was also an integral part of a kind of German nationalism that was popular among quite a number of "intellectuals". One of the most notorious of these people was Wagner.

Still, it is unlikely that the government in this TL would be so obsessed with this ideology. Sure, there would be anti-semitism among the leaders but being more conservative military men, they would probably have felt that they had more better things to do than obsess over the Jews. Fringe radical parties who maintained Hitler-like ideology would be a threat the new government and their activity would probably be suppressed along with other troublesome political competition.

They're still going to drive out the Jews, most of the Scientists left before the Nazis got Genocidal, while they were still "merely" being discriminatory and indulging in ugly rhetoric. Such things will likely be a part of any Far Right German government, leading to much the same results.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Though I wonder what effects it would have on the possible establishment of Israel without the Holocaust. Granted that the Balfour Declaration has already been confirmed, but could Europe's Jews be persuaded to settle in a proposed Jewish homeland within the former Russian Empire? Like a new Pale of Settlement in Central Asia, or even Madagascar.

 

[abc123]

Update anytime soon?

 

[Revolutionary Avocado]

Though I wonder what effects it would have on the possible establishment of Israel without the Holocaust. Granted that the Balfour Declaration has already been confirmed, but could Europe's Jews be persuaded to settle in a proposed Jewish homeland within the former Russian Empire? Like a new Pale of Settlement in Central Asia, or even Madagascar.

I honestly think Palestine is your best bet for a Jewish homeland. You could even actually get a German-supported Revisionist Zionist movement, like the Lehi in OTL, but with much more support due to the lack of a truly toxic German regime.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Update anytime soon?

The update will come soon, but I still have to complete Ivangorod Prosperous 2.0 plus I'm in the middle of a brainstorming for a Decembrist Russia TL rewrite. Overall, I can put that in the backburner and focus on this and Ivangorod 2.0. The ideas that I have must fall into place, and the next update will cover Richthofen's role in the Russian Civil War, particularly with the Luftbrigade Richthofen, and his meeting with Alfred Rosenberg and Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richter. Both of them will definitely join Richthofen's DVNP. Although I'm not sure what role should I give for this group: the Aufbau Vereinigung. This group composed of White Russian emigres and early German National Socialists whose purpose was to overthrow both the Bolshevik and Weimar goverments, and to replace them with a far-right regime. If von Scheubner-Richter doesn't die ITTL, Mitteleuropa may end up successful in getting rid of the communists and replacing them with a friendly regime, though I also envision a Russian state that has a Slavic version of the Ba'ath Party.

When I mentioned that Yugoslavia will have a role to play in this Mitteleuropa, Germany would become Yugoslavia's patron while Russia would end up supporting Bulgaria. Overall, Yugoslavia's relations with Bulgaria will look like Ba'athist Syria's hostile relationship with Ba'athist Iraq. Hopefully that Germany and Royal Yugoslavia are going to get all the attention it needs.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

I honestly think Palestine is your best bet for a Jewish homeland. You could even actually get a German-supported Revisionist Zionist movement, like the Lehi in OTL, but with much more support due to the lack of a truly toxic German regime.

So Germany and Israel as allies as well? Now I wonder if the British and the Americans are open to the idea of a German sponsored regime in Israel, plus I'm guessing that the Russians are obviously going to side with the Arabs. Which leaves Britain and the US to side with......either the Persians or the Turks.

 

[abc123]

When I mentioned that Yugoslavia will have a role to play in this Mitteleuropa, Germany would become Yugoslavia's patron while Russia would end up supporting Bulgaria. Overall, Yugoslavia's relations with Bulgaria will look like Ba'athist Syria's hostile relationship with Ba'athist Iraq. Hopefully that Germany and Royal Yugoslavia are going to get all the attention it needs.

Considering that Serbs don't like Germans and are allies of UK-France, I'm very curious how do you plan to do that...

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Considering that Serbs don't like Germans and are allies of UK-France, I'm very curious how do you plan to do that...

It will definitely involve a ton of heavy handed secularization, federalization and the extreme suppression of ethnic nationalism. The main trick here is to have a stable Mitteleuropa with an intact Royal Yugoslavia at the same time.

 

[abc123]

It will definitely involve a ton of heavy handed secularization, federalization and the extreme suppression of ethnic nationalism. The main trick here is to have a stable Mitteleuropa with an intact Royal Yugoslavia at the same time.

Sorry, simply can't see that happening. You would have to break Yugoslavia to accomplish that...

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Sorry, simply can't see that happening. You would have to break Yugoslavia to accomplish that...

So it's either an intact Royal Yugoslavia or a stable Mitteleuropa.

 

[abc123]

So it's either an intact Royal Yugoslavia or a stable Mitteleuropa.

Dont know enough about you POD and butterflies to say that, but it looks like that to me...

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Well it's still in its embryonic stage, so any ideas can change.

 

[Revolutionary Avocado]

Sorry, simply can't see that happening. You would have to break Yugoslavia to accomplish that...

Why not? Stojadinović almost managed to accomplish this in OTL under his quasi-fascist regime with Prince Paul. With a less lunatic German regime that is hostile to Italy, Yugoslavia's main enemy (with its extensive irredentist claims and support for the Ustaše) and acts as Yugoslavia's primary trade partner, Yugoslavia and Germany will remain together forever. Now, keeping Yugoslava together without either foreign military rule or massive domestic repression that makes Tito look like Noam Chomsky might be hard, but its definitely doable.

 

[abc123]

Why not? Stojadinović almost managed to accomplish this in OTL under his quasi-fascist regime with Prince Paul. With a less lunatic German regime that is hostile to Italy, Yugoslavia's main enemy (with its extensive irredentist claims and support for the Ustaše) and acts as Yugoslavia's primary trade partner, Yugoslavia and Germany will remain together forever. Now, keeping Yugoslava together without either foreign military rule or massive domestic repression that makes Tito look like Noam Chomsky might be hard, but its definitely doable.

"a ton of heavy handed secularization, federalization and the extreme suppression of ethnic nationalism"

 

[Enigmajones]

Is this Erhart guy that you're talking about would be Erhart Milch? Also, I may have a role for Arthur Roy Brown as well, probably as an Air Marshal.

No I was referring to Ehrhardt. My mistake.

Though we might like to tell ourselves otherwise, this is clearly very true.

While nationalists in most countries in Europe were very anti-semitic, the German variety had the potential to be especially dangerous for it was motivated not merely by blind hate and suspicion but was also an integral part of a kind of German nationalism that was popular among quite a number of "intellectuals". One of the most notorious of these people was Wagner.

Still, it is unlikely that the government in this TL would be so obsessed with this ideology. Sure, there would be anti-semitism among the leaders but being more conservative military men, they would probably have felt that they had more better things to do than obsess over the Jews. Fringe radical parties who maintained Hitler-like ideology would be a threat the new government and their activity would probably be suppressed along with other troublesome political competition.

While I agree that any DNVP government will not be fixated on the Jews quite as much as the Nazis were, but they will certainly pass anti-Jewish laws similar to the ones passed by the Nazis in OTL.