My point exactly; my argumets were mostly referring to OTL, hence the 'attack on Egypt'.
The Rebirth of the Ottoman Empire
- Thread starter Onkel Willie
- Start date
My point exactly; my argumets were mostly referring to OTL, hence the 'attack on Egypt'.
Don Grey
Banned
Exactly, so they should put on a better show. With out that huge waste a better army better leadership and FAR more manpower that a bigger and stronger ottoman empire have should have been able to break the enemy lines on one or two ocassions.
mmm, I suppose you're right. However, do you know what kind of terrain the Caucasus has. That's easy to defend. As for Greece, they did run part of it over up to the Isthmus of Corinth which is a friggin' bottleneck.
I'll make some changes though when I get back. Reader suggestions are always nice
.Oh. I hadn't read your post that thoroughly and thought you were saying they did too well.
What kind of short-range ships do the Ottomans have? They might have been able to mount naval raids on Greece south of Corinth, if they can avoid the British fleet.
Also, given how the Ottomans took Baku in OTL, I could imagine them taking the city and even crossing the Caspian into Central Asia, if only for raiding purposes.
(However, there is no general Russian collapse in TTL, so maybe the Russians are strong enough to prevent that OTL outcome.)
Persia could also be a battleground, given Russian influence in the north and British influence in the south.
Also, given how the Ottomans took Baku in OTL, I could imagine them taking the city and even crossing the Caspian into Central Asia, if only for raiding purposes.
(However, there is no general Russian collapse in TTL, so maybe the Russians are strong enough to prevent that OTL outcome.)
Persia could also be a battleground, given Russian influence in the north and British influence in the south.
Don Grey
Banned
I dont know about there navy that much onkell only said something along the lines of four modern german ships but thats all he said.Thoughs are enough to make raids on southern greece but like you said aslong as they dont face the royal navy.From what ive gathered from the update british efforts in the med have been half ass plus theres the AH navy aswell there too. The rise of german empire is defined by the decline then fall of the british.The british empire is not the british empire with out india if that is threatend so is there empire.A victorios germany and strong one is completly against there intrests which will kill there empire. Stronger ottoman empire with control of egypt and the red see means they can disrupte there connection to india (germany will also work for this its in her best intrests the brits fall). Annexation of the entire arabian peninsula is in the ottomans best intrests and easy.Persia can be easly annexed all you need is the northern and central areas. Once your enemy controls those any and all influencal will die in the south one because its pointless they have got all the good areas 2 because your enemy has also kicked you out of arabia and controls egypt and the land across the red sea as seen in the map.Whos intrests is britain going to fight against ottomans which will only give free range to the germans or the germans intrests which will only give free range to ottomans intrests.Both there objective will be the same it doesnt take a genius to figure out india is the crown jewel so they will both make it as hard as possible for the brits to get to india. You can be sure with a reborn ottoman empire that came out victorios the caliphate will be meddling with the muslims in india and other british colonies that have muslims. Either way britian is screwd.
As for russia. If she doesnt reform drasticaly or go soviet it will just be giant that cant defend it self and never ending internal strife (keep in mind russia is still huge she has alot on her plate to deal with).If ottomans annex the caucasus and get some northern territory on the peace table its only a matter itme before the ottomans get complet influence of central asia and move in enough forces just to unhing the russians.That is if central asia isnt already handed over on the peace table because the russians have no forces there and the native pop hate them.They have lost millions in a war they cant protect them selves or feed or even maintain order in russia (when you dont have influence in your own cities then you cant have influence in persia or central asia quite simple realy) and no one wants to see russia rise again.The loss of the cottan feilds in central asia will be and economic below to russia in the best intrests of the central powers.Because russia has no cards in her poket a seriously weakend russia would also make sure AH and german gains in eastern europe are safe and secure.Mikegolds gains that he wrote on the second page is about right plus greece and persia because no one can realy stop the ottomans from taking all these gains because the economi isnt crushed the army is still strong plus you still have lots of manpower left and these gains are mostly on muslim lands(and britian will be to bussy thinked about how to deal with germany).With the added prestige of the caliphats victory most will be happy to get the ottomans except for greece and persia but they will get use to it.
Hmm...now I'm imagining an Ottoman triumphal march through Persia toward India, preceded by jihadi revolts stirred up by sympathetic Muslim preachers.
Hopkirk's book Like Hidden Fire describes plots to stir up Islamic revolt against the British Empire in Asia, although they weren't successful in OTL.
Ottoman armies threatening British possessions in southern Arabia and the British positions in Persia or even India could trigger much more mayhem in TTL.
Hopkirk's book Like Hidden Fire describes plots to stir up Islamic revolt against the British Empire in Asia, although they weren't successful in OTL.
Ottoman armies threatening British possessions in southern Arabia and the British positions in Persia or even India could trigger much more mayhem in TTL.
Edition of last update!
Everybody, I made changes to the last update following the readers' ideas!
EDIT: Now it's on to the peace treaties. Any suggestions?
Everybody, I made changes to the last update following the readers' ideas!
EDIT: Now it's on to the peace treaties. Any suggestions?
Don Grey
Banned
The first part is just awsome but it cant happen india is just to far for its military and pointless adventure. Atleast not yet
The second part failed because the ottomans had been failing in every arena possible economi military you name it.But thats no longer the case the ottos are bigger and stronger know with the added prestige of a great victory the porte is sublime again so muslim loyalty is unquestioning.
Third part the brits can make all the fuss they want but thats all it will be.They will be kicked out by force if nessecary.Because there barly holding on to there arab territories and the natives hate them.And in this TTL with out british control of egypt and lose of ww1 they might not even have any influence in persia even if they do its too far to them and too close to the ottomans.It would be like ottomans influence in ireland because of economi it would be pointless.And they dont own persia they just have influence on it. Most importantly germany will be doing everthing it can to make sure this happen because the point of the game is bring the brits down from now on.The more ground the brits lose the more ground germany can gain. For the the brits to stop this they would either need to go around africa or fight there way through egypt and the sarounding lands of the red sea to get to there arabian territories.If they want to get to persia they can try the things i said before or invade levent and fight there way to persia.For some reason i dont think the brits would like to do that just for persia.Plus it would be like suicide because first you would have to sink the otto navy land fight the experianced and modern ottoman army in there own back yard in the middle of the desert and face a shit load of angry muslim natives it would be worse then gellipoli.
Don Grey
Banned
Everybody, I made changes to the last update following the readers' ideas!
EDIT: Now it's on to the peace treaties. Any suggestions?
You would know best for the germany and AH gains. But for the reborn ottomans the gains ive writen above would sound.
Re: the peace treaties, last we checked, the Ottomans were in possession of much territory in the Caucasus and Persia west of the Zagros. However, I don't recall any advances into Persia beyond that.
Given the setbacks Britain and the Russians have suffered re: Persia, it wouldn't surprise me if their spheres of influence will be gone. The Ottomans would be rather foolish to try to grab the whole thing--it could stir up Shi'ite troublemakers and they'd overextend themselves--but they could assume the "spheres of influence" themselves. On the other hand, a potential Safavid-wannabe fulminating about territorial losses could be a real problem.
Crimea, if the Ottomans keep it, could be a flash-point for Russian irredentism if Russia keeps Ukraine. If Ukraine is detached from Russia and made a pro-German puppet, they're less likely to make a fuss unless they detach themselves from German dominance (which would likely include an alliance with Russia).
How much territory will the Ottomans take from Greece, given how they've occupied everything north of the Isthmus of Corinth and were besieging Athens? They could get away with taking a pretty big bite, but the more territory they take, the more insurgency problems they could have.
What advances did the Ottomans make in interior Africa against the French?
And when will oil be discovered? The Ottomans will come through positively loaded as a result.
Given the setbacks Britain and the Russians have suffered re: Persia, it wouldn't surprise me if their spheres of influence will be gone. The Ottomans would be rather foolish to try to grab the whole thing--it could stir up Shi'ite troublemakers and they'd overextend themselves--but they could assume the "spheres of influence" themselves. On the other hand, a potential Safavid-wannabe fulminating about territorial losses could be a real problem.
Crimea, if the Ottomans keep it, could be a flash-point for Russian irredentism if Russia keeps Ukraine. If Ukraine is detached from Russia and made a pro-German puppet, they're less likely to make a fuss unless they detach themselves from German dominance (which would likely include an alliance with Russia).
How much territory will the Ottomans take from Greece, given how they've occupied everything north of the Isthmus of Corinth and were besieging Athens? They could get away with taking a pretty big bite, but the more territory they take, the more insurgency problems they could have.
What advances did the Ottomans make in interior Africa against the French?
And when will oil be discovered? The Ottomans will come through positively loaded as a result.
Sounds good. I was, however, thinking about Ottoman annexation of Persia. Seeing how the Persians HATE the British and Russian occupiers who see it as nothing more than a colony to extract resources from, I could see it. More so since the Shah is seen as a puppet. If the Ottomans do a good hearts and minds campaign it might be possible. No that's Ottomanwank for you
. I, however, need advice from people more knowledgable than me on the subject.Sounds good. I was, however, thinking about Ottoman annexation of Persia. Seeing how the Persians HATE the British and Russian occupiers who see it as nothing more than a colony to extract resources from, I could see it. More so since the Shah is seen as a puppet. If the Ottomans do a good hearts and minds campaign it might be possible. No that's Ottomanwank for you
Annexation by the Ottomans and the imposition of the Sultan's claim of the Caliphate on Twelver Shi'a who believe in a Hidden Imam who will become the next Caliph in an apocalyptic future scenario is not going to go over well with many Shi'a religious leaders.
Trying to annex all of Persia could provoke a major anti-Ottoman religious war, something I'm sure the Russians will be willing to stoke with arms, sanctuary, etc.
Now, if you want an Ottoman invasion of India in a future war, perhaps the two nations form some kind of alliance against British revanchism? This will enable Persian troops to pour into India in the old style, with the Ottomans coming along too.
Religious war would suck big time. Would it be practical if the Sultan declared himself Caliph of all of SUNNI Islam and not just ALL Islam. I don't know if that's feasible, but I think that Sunni leaders will recognise by now that Shi'a and Sunni Islam are too separate to be united.
Don Grey
Banned
I dont think it would be that hard to annex persia.Atleast no all of it but most of it.If the ottomans annex most of it then the reast would be like just hinterland.And if everything north of corinth in greece is taken then the rest cant live on its own. I say just take the rest or leave greece completly leaving one crum on the bottem is pointless.If the ottos are worried about potential insurgencies then it would have to leave all christian lands.So i say ottomans get (persia greece arab peninsula causcasus and central asia joins its influence). Getting some of french africa would be just greedy and no need for it realy. Ottos already have a good chunk of africa and large portions of french africa is sahara desert.And the padishah becomes caliphate of muslim world.Maybe shia will listen and maybe they wont it shouldnt be that big of a problam they will learn to deal with it.And the ottomans cant get crimea like you said it could turn into a flash point.Plus too far and too much with no adjacent ottoman territory it cant be held.
That doesn't seem realistic. Even today, the Pope claims to be Vicar of Christ for every Christian, not just Catholics, and that's post-Vatican II.
And even today, you have Sunni and Shi'a friction and occasional violence.
Ottoman Islam was, IIRC, more liberal than say, Wahabism, but that doesn't mean the Sultan would be willing to make such a massive concession.
And even today, you have Sunni and Shi'a friction and occasional violence.
Ottoman Islam was, IIRC, more liberal than say, Wahabism, but that doesn't mean the Sultan would be willing to make such a massive concession.
OTOH, Persia only had a population of some 10 million at the time. Besides, you said it yourself, Ottoman Islam was liberal. What we really need now is Abdul. He could shed more light on the matter.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
You're mixing up two different things. The first is the Sarıkamış campaign, which only involved a little over 100,000 troops - and very nearly succeeded. It was unnecessarily risky, but it wasn't idiotic.
The "Army of Islam" was at the end of the war, and was hugely successful, overrunning the entire Caucasus and was pushing toward Astrakhan when the war ended.
Don Grey
Banned
I just thought it would be more practical and the padishahs did consider themselves caliphate of the muslime world but the persian never realy cared enough to listen
. so it will probably be the same thing know.And by the way Onkel love the new update the ottomans have gone very agressive i like it. The serious headways they have made and the performance they have shown will get them good share in the peace table if only some one can make a map so we can get an idea of what territories are going to be annexed by the ottos.
And Abdul can they get to Astrakhan in this TL .Generaly would the gains ive writen be possible in this TL and could you give us an idea of maximum gains?
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
20% of Turkey today is Shiite, and Iraq was just as Shiite in the Ottoman period as it is now, not to mention the Shiite pockets throughout the rest of the empire. It simply wasn't a problem. The whole Shia-Sunni issue is really badly overplayed in the West.
If it wasn't a problem in the OTL empire, I don't see why it would be a big issue here.