The Raven of the East
- Thread starter Cambyses
- Start date
Yeah, I'll try and write it tomorrow. It'll include 1066, which is still a big year.
Excellent.
BTW, I intend to blog about this scenario once I finish "The Revenge of the Fallen Reboot."
I'll post the link here.
ROTF Reboot, my blog entry, or both?
Both, I've been meaning to check out your blog for a while.
Cool. My most recent post is my review of "Transformers: Dark of the Moon," which you might find interesting.
No actually. One of Harold's brother's was taken as an hostage by the king during the period when the Godwine's were briefly disposed of their lands in Wessex, ~1051. When they returned he was transferred to the 'security' of Normandy, which was where Edward had spent much of his formative years. It has been suggested that what Harold was doing in the channel in 1064 I think it was, was seeking to gain his release. The brother in question, forget his name, stayed a prisoner until he died, a couple of decades after the conquest. Harold may still have been shipwrecked and captured by William but there was another member of his family held hostage at the time.
Damn, that could be bad. Sweyn will be a lot more powerful, although he could face a lot of unrest in Norway about Danish rule. He could well dream of 'restoring' Cnut's kingdom.
Steve
Damn, that could be bad. Sweyn will be a lot more powerful, although he could face a lot of unrest in Norway about Danish rule. He could well dream of 'restoring' Cnut's kingdom.
Steve
If the Danes try to take advantage of Edward the Confessor's death along with William, that might be the motivation.
That sounds quite interesting, but I'm not sure which brother you're talking about. Harold and Leofwine went to Ireland in 1051, Whilst Gerth, Swegen and Tostig went to Flanders and returned the following year (Except Swegen, who was exiled for life and died on pilgrimage to Jerusalem). Gyrth, Leofwine and Tostig all died in battle in 1066. Is there another Godwinson I'm missing?
Well Sweyn has a decent claim, he's Canute's nephew. He might not be personally capable of pulling it off though. He's been pretty lucky to do as well as he has.
Cambyses The Mad
I think I've read mention of it elsewhere but the 1st book to hand is Harold, the last Anglo-Saxon king by Ian W Walker, ISBN 978-0-7509-3763. It's probably a little bias as he definitely likes Harold,
, something I'll admit to be guilty of myself. It mentions his younger brother Wulfnoth, who was taken hostage aged ~15 and stayed imprisoned until his death in 1094 It came about when in 1051-52 there was a serious clash between the king and Earl Godwine. Wulfnoth and Hakon, son of Swein, Godwine's oldest son were given as hostages to the king. This didn't prevent the entire family being exiled by Edward towards the end of the year.Edward had however pushed things too far and alienated the other great earls. When Godwine and his family returned the following year and gathered supporters few earls supported the king and he was forced to restore the families lands.
One of the people who had helped the king in his initial move against the Godwines was a Norman Archbishop Robert of Canterbury who fled back to Normandy before being outlawed as part of the new settlement and it is suggested that the two hostages were taken with him to Normandy.
Hakon was slightly luckier than Wulfnoth. Both were supposed to be released by Williams will when he died in 1087. Wulfnoth was in the hands of William Rufus, who ruled England and possibly didn't want a brother of the last Saxon king running lose so kept him imprisoned. Hakon was in the hands of Williams brother Robert, who inherited Normandy, who set him free and actually knighted him.
Hope this helps.
Steve
Cambyses The Mad
I think I've read mention of it elsewhere but the 1st book to hand is Harold, the last Anglo-Saxon king by Ian W Walker, ISBN 978-0-7509-3763. It's probably a little bias as he definitely likes Harold,
Edward had however pushed things too far and alienated the other great earls. When Godwine and his family returned the following year and gathered supporters few earls supported the king and he was forced to restore the families lands.
One of the people who had helped the king in his initial move against the Godwines was a Norman Archbishop Robert of Canterbury who fled back to Normandy before being outlawed as part of the new settlement and it is suggested that the two hostages were taken with him to Normandy.
Hakon was slightly luckier than Wulfnoth. Both were supposed to be released by Williams will when he died in 1087. Wulfnoth was in the hands of William Rufus, who ruled England and possibly didn't want a brother of the last Saxon king running lose so kept him imprisoned. Hakon was in the hands of Williams brother Robert, who inherited Normandy, who set him free and actually knighted him.
Hope this helps.
Steve
So there was a brother I didn't know about. Thanks, that's really interesting. I'll definitely try to work it in.
Is 1066 coming along? I await the North Sea Gotterdamurung with bated breath.
(I'll still blog about it. However, I've got a bunch of things to do and 1066 makes a good "selling point" to history-inclined readers, so I probably won't have the blog post up before you post 1066.)
(I'll still blog about it. However, I've got a bunch of things to do and 1066 makes a good "selling point" to history-inclined readers, so I probably won't have the blog post up before you post 1066.)
Sorry guys, In truth I picked up a couple of ASOIAF books I hadn't read yet yesterday and I've been engrossed. I shall finish the update over the weekend.
Sorry guys, In truth I picked up a couple of ASOIAF books I hadn't read yet yesterday and I've been engrossed. I shall finish the update over the weekend.
Okay....
(filler)
Bumping as a reminder.
Also something to keep in mind with whatever you do in England is that OTL saw a lot of Saxon exiles who REALLY hated the Normans. A lot of them ended up in Byzantine service and I think they accidentally caused the Byzantines to lose a battle in Italy because they disobeyed orders, attacked the Normans en masse, and absolutely would not stop.
Should the Normans triumph in TTL, unless it's something like AJNolte's scenario (William becomes king, but cannot Normanize the country and thus A-S England essentially stays intact with a new king), they might find Saxon enemies intent of revenge wherever it can be found.
Saxon exiles serving under Hardrada might be nice and ironic, although given Hardrada's absence from Norway, OTL's Hastings is not going to happen.
Of course, if you reverse Hastings and have William defeated but Harold lose to Sweyn's pan-Scandinavian force, you could have Saxons going into exile who hate Vikings instead. If you go with Zoe and her Doukid consort reclaiming Norway, it's Saxon exile troops (or their kids) who provide the manpower.
Or perhaps both sets of invaders fight each other rather the English due to some weird coincidence and now you've got Normans who hate Vikings (for preventing them from taking England). It's Normans with grudges who help Zoe and Mr. Doukas take over Norway.
This can get fun.
Also, if there's no Harrying of the North (no Norman Conquest or a different Norman Conquest), the North of England is going to be much richer and more developed, which will in turn have other effects.
Also something to keep in mind with whatever you do in England is that OTL saw a lot of Saxon exiles who REALLY hated the Normans. A lot of them ended up in Byzantine service and I think they accidentally caused the Byzantines to lose a battle in Italy because they disobeyed orders, attacked the Normans en masse, and absolutely would not stop.
Should the Normans triumph in TTL, unless it's something like AJNolte's scenario (William becomes king, but cannot Normanize the country and thus A-S England essentially stays intact with a new king), they might find Saxon enemies intent of revenge wherever it can be found.
Saxon exiles serving under Hardrada might be nice and ironic, although given Hardrada's absence from Norway, OTL's Hastings is not going to happen.
Of course, if you reverse Hastings and have William defeated but Harold lose to Sweyn's pan-Scandinavian force, you could have Saxons going into exile who hate Vikings instead. If you go with Zoe and her Doukid consort reclaiming Norway, it's Saxon exile troops (or their kids) who provide the manpower.
Or perhaps both sets of invaders fight each other rather the English due to some weird coincidence and now you've got Normans who hate Vikings (for preventing them from taking England). It's Normans with grudges who help Zoe and Mr. Doukas take over Norway.
This can get fun.
Also, if there's no Harrying of the North (no Norman Conquest or a different Norman Conquest), the North of England is going to be much richer and more developed, which will in turn have other effects.
1065 ad
Paul and Erlend Thorfinnson meet Malcolm III of the Scots in battle. After fierce fighting Paul, fighting in the front lines in the old style, is slain and much of the Norse army routs. A great victory for the Scots is marred however as Malcolm is thrown by his horse during the pursuit and dies. Erlend retreats to the north. Malcolm's five year old son Duncan is heir, however the throne is seized by Donald, Malcolm's brother. Edgar the Aethling, Duncan's maternal uncle, requests aid from King Edward of England in restoring Duncan. Edward is slow to consider the request, not wishing to draw England into a war whilst his health was failing.
Zoe Haraldsdottir, Princess of Varangia and Kiev, marries Prince Michael Doukas. It is rumoured that this arrangement had much to do with Hardrada's willingness to reach a compromise with the court faction the previous year. The more cautious gossips in the Empire argue that the match is simple politics, with the girl's uncle now reigning in Kiev, whilst some generous types even go so far as to argue that the marrige was based on love, as couple had been friends since childhood.
Stenkil of Sweden's bishops urge him to seek aid from the powerful King Sweyn II in combatting the pagan rebellion. Mindful of Sweyn's wars against his father, Stenkil refuses.
Alp Arslan defeats a Ghaznavid army besieging the Seljuk city of Herat, and pushes the Ghaznavids back into their own territory.
1066 ad
Edward of England dies. His crown is claimed by no less than 4 men; Edgar the Aethling, William of Normandy, Sweyn II of Norway, Denmark, and Frisia, and Harald Hardrada. Edgar is judged too young to lead the country if expected hostilities break out and Harold Godwinson is proclaimed king by the English Earls, facing a mixed reaction from the rival claimants. Hardrada, far off in Byzantium, does nothing, content to simply add a third courtly styling to his list of titles. Sweyn initally appears to do nothing also, concerning himself with defending his frontier against the chaos in Sweden and the HRE and securing his nascent Empire, however he does seek Papal support for his claim and recieves it, in recognition of his 'goodly Christian work' in scouring Norway of heresy and Paganism, sending Bishops to Orkney, and constructing the Cathedral in Hedeby. Hardrada takes some personal offense at this, and considers taking action against the Pope, but is dissuaded by the Patriarch.
William of Normandy, outraged that Harold has broken a prior oath to support his own claim, prepares to invade England. Inital attempts to gain Papal support are prevented by his association with Robert Guiscard and Rome lends it's weight to Sweyn. Fortunately for William his forces are boosted by the presence of Guiscard's veterans from his wars in Italy, and he is able to gather a respectable invasion force. Sailing in September the Norman army lands on the south coast of England. Godwinson, fully aware that the invasion was coming, marches to meet him. William leaves a token force to protect his ships and meets Harold in battle somewhere just south of London. Although the Normans possess cavalry and better archers the Saxons have greater numbers and are better rested and the Normans are unable to break their shield wall. After a gruelling day of combat night begins to fall as the Saxon's Northern Earls arrive at the battlefield. Relizing the situation is hopeless William leaves a rearguard under Guiscard and returns to his ships. Guiscard begins a fighting retreat, using the tactics he learned against the Byzantines, but is ultimately captured. William returns to Normandy.
Arslan crushes a second Ghaznavid army in Afghanistan, though the terrain limits the effectiveness of the traditional tactics of the Seljuk army. Arslan pushes on to the captial city, Ghazni, determined to break the power of the Ghaznavids as he did the Fatmids.
Paul and Erlend Thorfinnson meet Malcolm III of the Scots in battle. After fierce fighting Paul, fighting in the front lines in the old style, is slain and much of the Norse army routs. A great victory for the Scots is marred however as Malcolm is thrown by his horse during the pursuit and dies. Erlend retreats to the north. Malcolm's five year old son Duncan is heir, however the throne is seized by Donald, Malcolm's brother. Edgar the Aethling, Duncan's maternal uncle, requests aid from King Edward of England in restoring Duncan. Edward is slow to consider the request, not wishing to draw England into a war whilst his health was failing.
Zoe Haraldsdottir, Princess of Varangia and Kiev, marries Prince Michael Doukas. It is rumoured that this arrangement had much to do with Hardrada's willingness to reach a compromise with the court faction the previous year. The more cautious gossips in the Empire argue that the match is simple politics, with the girl's uncle now reigning in Kiev, whilst some generous types even go so far as to argue that the marrige was based on love, as couple had been friends since childhood.
Stenkil of Sweden's bishops urge him to seek aid from the powerful King Sweyn II in combatting the pagan rebellion. Mindful of Sweyn's wars against his father, Stenkil refuses.
Alp Arslan defeats a Ghaznavid army besieging the Seljuk city of Herat, and pushes the Ghaznavids back into their own territory.
1066 ad
Edward of England dies. His crown is claimed by no less than 4 men; Edgar the Aethling, William of Normandy, Sweyn II of Norway, Denmark, and Frisia, and Harald Hardrada. Edgar is judged too young to lead the country if expected hostilities break out and Harold Godwinson is proclaimed king by the English Earls, facing a mixed reaction from the rival claimants. Hardrada, far off in Byzantium, does nothing, content to simply add a third courtly styling to his list of titles. Sweyn initally appears to do nothing also, concerning himself with defending his frontier against the chaos in Sweden and the HRE and securing his nascent Empire, however he does seek Papal support for his claim and recieves it, in recognition of his 'goodly Christian work' in scouring Norway of heresy and Paganism, sending Bishops to Orkney, and constructing the Cathedral in Hedeby. Hardrada takes some personal offense at this, and considers taking action against the Pope, but is dissuaded by the Patriarch.
William of Normandy, outraged that Harold has broken a prior oath to support his own claim, prepares to invade England. Inital attempts to gain Papal support are prevented by his association with Robert Guiscard and Rome lends it's weight to Sweyn. Fortunately for William his forces are boosted by the presence of Guiscard's veterans from his wars in Italy, and he is able to gather a respectable invasion force. Sailing in September the Norman army lands on the south coast of England. Godwinson, fully aware that the invasion was coming, marches to meet him. William leaves a token force to protect his ships and meets Harold in battle somewhere just south of London. Although the Normans possess cavalry and better archers the Saxons have greater numbers and are better rested and the Normans are unable to break their shield wall. After a gruelling day of combat night begins to fall as the Saxon's Northern Earls arrive at the battlefield. Relizing the situation is hopeless William leaves a rearguard under Guiscard and returns to his ships. Guiscard begins a fighting retreat, using the tactics he learned against the Byzantines, but is ultimately captured. William returns to Normandy.
Arslan crushes a second Ghaznavid army in Afghanistan, though the terrain limits the effectiveness of the traditional tactics of the Seljuk army. Arslan pushes on to the captial city, Ghazni, determined to break the power of the Ghaznavids as he did the Fatmids.
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