The Rains Of Shiloh April 1862

DMA

Hyperion said:
Then leave Vicksburg to another Union army force, and pursue Jackson until you can either force him into a decisive battle, be it on Grant's terms or his, or until he retreats far enough way that even if his army is still operational, it will not be able to come back and hit you for several days at least.

Or Concentrate solely on Vicksburg, whether or not Jackson is there or not, and leave just enough troops to keep Jackson occupied, while the main army force, combined with reinforcements and the navy take Vicksburg. I did some research last night, and found out that the actual seige lasted only a couple of months, not the 4 to 5 months I originally suggested for the seige if Jackson was involved, so I'm thinking a seige would probably last from late November or early December to late January or some time in February.

Which would be more beneficial to winning the war: taking out Jackson's army, or taking out Pemberton's army and capturing Vicksburg and gaining control of the Mississippi, and putting a stranglehold on supplies being brought into the Confederacy overland across the Texas-Mexico border?
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Well much of this is what I was posting about earlier. Now obviously taking out both Pemberton's & Jackson's forces out would be a great victory for the Union. But there are two problems. The first is I can't see where another Union army is coming from in order to place Vicksburg under siege whilst Grant & company go chasing off after Jackson. Even the Union has its limitations, as we'd be talking something like a further 70 000 troops or so if the OTL siege of Vicksburg is anything to judge by.

The next problem is Jackson. He is probably the best general on both sides. Sure he had his bad time during the Peninsular Campaign, but that was the exception & not the rule. So when planning for Jackson, you've got to have to accept that he'll realise what Grant is trying to make him do. This is why Jackson won't fall for getting trapped in Vicksburg. Similarly Jackson won't attack Grant's combined army. He'll only attack when the odds favour him. Study his Valley Campaign along with Chancellorsville & you'll know what I mean. And considering the dates involved for this AH Vicksburg Campaign, I'd say Jackson will be near the top of his game here.

Now the problem for the Union is actually two-fold. If Pemberton summoms up enough courage he may abandon Vicksburg. It'll piss off Davis back in Richmond, but he'll ensure that an army of 40 000 Rebs remains active. What Pemberton should do, once the town of Jackson Mississippi falls to Grant, is to leave Vicksburg with his army (although the town itself is left garrisoned with whatever militia is around), sweep to the south of the Union forces at Jackson, & meet up with Jackson's army to the east. Of course that's if Pemberton is using his military brain instead of listening to the politicians in Richmond.

This Reb combined army, now something like 80 000 strong, is now a real threat to the Union. Because, if Grant does as you suggest & wants to place Vicksburg under seige, the bulk of the Union army won't be facing the enlarged army of Jackson. As a result, Jackson could launch one of his lightning attacks &, before Grant knows it, his army could be routed, tumberling northward in confusion, where he'll have to start all over again. That wouldn't overly surprise me as Grant, in the OTL, had to try several times, via different ways, in order to get Vicksburg in the first place.

In other words, whatever Grant does, he shouldn't turn his back on Jackson. Vicksburg can wait whilst Jackson is around. Afterall it's not as if the city of Vicksburg is going anywhere.
 

Hyperion

Banned
So until Jackson is delt with somehow or other, attacking Vicksburg is a bad idea. Regardless of how Vicksburg is, it isn't as big as a threat as 55,000 men on the move with a top notch general in command.

By now someone should realize how dangerous Jackson is, and probably be able to convince Grant of the necessity of taking him down, or weakening his ability at the least. If Grant is smart enough to know that he has to take down Jackson, what would his best strategy be.

Also, if Pemberton were to leave Vicksburg, how good would he be out in the field, instead of behind fixed defenses.
 

DMA

Hyperion said:
So until Jackson is delt with somehow or other, attacking Vicksburg is a bad idea. Regardless of how Vicksburg is, it isn't as big as a threat as 55,000 men on the move with a top notch general in command.

By now someone should realize how dangerous Jackson is, and probably be able to convince Grant of the necessity of taking him down, or weakening his ability at the least. If Grant is smart enough to know that he has to take down Jackson, what would his best strategy be.
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I think Grant's best option is to leave an observation corps, of say 40 000 troops, at Vicksburg to do nothing but keep Pemberton honest, whilst his main force (of say 110 000 troops) goes after Jackson & pursues Jackson into Alabama, if need be, as it's fundamental that Pemberton cannot be allowed to escape Vicksburg & meet up with Jackson.

Of course Jackson could turn south, instead of east, in order to try to counter-sweep to the south of Grant & then march on Vicksburg. If so, expect Jackson to defeat the Union observation force keeping a watch at Vicksburg.

Overall it's tricky stuff for both sides. But remember, the Union can afford a defeat or indeed two, where as the Rebs can't afford one defeat. Grant's number one strength is that he'll try different things, sometimes all at once, in order to ensure victory.

Essentially, though, a Reb victory lies in two important factors: firstly, Pemberton escapes Vicksburg at the right time & meets up with Jackson. And secondly, Jackson offers battle on his terms after Pemberton joins his army. So the onus is on the Rebs to get it right. What will not happen is Jackson getting caught in Vicksburg. He never believed in positional warfare, but manoeuvre warfare.

Having said that, Grant must force the issue somehow as Forrest will sooner or later begin large scale operations in the Union rear. Importantly this will cut supplies to the point that Grant may not be able to operate in central Mississippi, until Vicksburg is taken so that Union supplies can in via the river.


Hyperion said:
Also, if Pemberton were to leave Vicksburg, how good would he be out in the field, instead of behind fixed defenses.
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Pemberton is average outside of his defences. So if he offers battle in the approaches to Vicksburg, he'll probably be defeated akin to the OTL & withdraw to Vicksburg. However, that's only if Pemberton is fighting without Jackson. It'll be different if Pemberton's army is fighting as a corps of Jackson's combined army.
 

Jason Sleeman

After A Long Haitus... The Rains of Shiloh Timeline

Post Civil War..... Part I

February 1864- Compliance by all former rebel states to the Lincoln/Davis agreement.

August 1864- Republicans Renominate Abraham Lincoln for President with Robert E Lee as Vice President as head of the now renamed Union Party. Democrats rechristened the People's Party nominate George McClellan for President and Judah Benjamin for Vice President.

November 1864 Lincoln/Lee elected by 64%-36%

December 1864 Lincoln sends a strongly worded message to Napoleon III reminding him of the Monroe doctrine in regards to Mexico. U.S Grant is ordered to the border with 50,000 U.S Troops several thousand of which are former Confederate troops organised as the Dixie Division under James Longstreet.

January 1865- Encouraged by U.S support (supplies, arms, and ammunition) Mexican nationalists overthrow Maximillian.

March 1865- Lincoln/Lee inagurated in Washington D.C

April 1865- A famous actor, John Wilkes Booth is detainned by Washington D.C police for riding too fast through town and is jailed for 3 Days. Lincoln attends a "Our American Cousin at Fords Theatre with Vice President Lee and the pair recieves a long standing ovation. Booth contracts Cholera while in jail and dies 10 days after his release.

End Part I
 

Wendell

Why do the Democrats change their name? Does Lincoln really have to switch VPs here? How does the Congress take to this agreement?
 
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DMA

I love it Jason. Especially the ending for Booth. ;)

I can go along with Lee as VP considering Johnson was the biggest crook around IMHO. Afterall he didn't have to face Impeachment for nothing (& it almost succeeded save for the lack of one vote).

I just wonder about the renaming of the parties. Is there really a need to do so?
 

Hierophant

I could see the Union party of OTL surviving and taking in most of the republicans and nationalistic democrats, leaving the republican party smaller made up of mostly radicals.

It would be amusing if they eventually become the start of socialism in American and today the Republican party is like American Green party and the socialists merged together.
 

Jason Sleeman

Responses

"I just wonder about the renaming of the parties. Is there really a need to do so? "

DMA, Wendell,

Perhaps there isn't, however the Republican party was renamed the Union Party for the 1864 election in OTL so I just had them adopt that name in this timeline. I'll admit that the renaming the Democrats was just an arbitary decision on my part :) . This could be due to the parties realigning slightly after the war.

While Hamlin was a loyal and able VP to Lincoln, selecting Lee will go far to restoring goodwill with the reunited southern states and show the Union Party as a national, rather than a sectional political party.

Congress will accept the peace terms, The Democrats because it does not strike down slavery right away and the Republicans because the union is restored and slavery to be ended. Also there is a bipartisan spirit to end the war on honorable terms. Although Radical Republicans will vote in part in opposition to the measure it will pass by a comfortable margin.

Thanks All,

Jason Sleeman
 

DMA

Wendell said:
I was thinking about Lincoln's response to the Secretary of State's territorial ambitions ;)
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Fair enough, although I'd say Lincoln would be more likely to ensure slavery is ended, & that it's done properly this time around, as Johnson isn't there to stuff everything up in the post-Civil War period.

Here's a thought, will Lincoln stand again in 1868? And, if he's still alive & well, how about in 1872? He could become the FDR of the 19th century.
 

Wendell

DMA said:
Fair enough, although I'd say Lincoln would be more likely to ensure slavery is ended, & that it's done properly this time around, as Johnson isn't there to stuff everything up in the post-Civil War period.

Here's a thought, will Lincoln stand again in 1868? And, if he's still alive & well, how about in 1872? He could become the FDR of the 19th century.
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That's not what I meant. I don't see Lincoln breaking with tradition with regard to seeking a third term.
 

DMA

Wendell said:
That's not what I meant. I don't see Lincoln breaking with tradition with regard to seeking a third term.
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It was just a passing thought. Anyway, in 1868 it could hardly be considered a tradition as the nation wasn't even 100 years old at that stage. It's only because of all the fuss over Washington serving two terms. But the situation in 1868 is hardly the same as the 1780s, considering the nation has been recently through a civil war & there's a lot to do in the aftermath.
 

Wendell

DMA said:
It was just a passing thought. Anyway, in 1868 it could hardly be considered a tradition as the nation wasn't even 100 years old at that stage. It's only because of all the fuss over Washington serving two terms. But the situation in 1868 is hardly the same as the 1780s, considering the nation has been recently through a civil war & there's a lot to do in the aftermath.
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I think that Lee's political career could be interesting. Lincoln does not strike me as one who would want to be president forever.


Hey, will Nebraska rename its capital after Lincoln in TTL?
 

DMA

Wendell said:
I think that Lee's political career could be interesting. Lincoln does not strike me as one who would want to be president forever.
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It's hard to tell what Lincoln would do in 1868 as he was killed in his prime. Having said that, if things haven't developed in the USA to his liking by 1868, I'd say he'd stand for a third term if need be (& even a forth term).

His running mate in 1868 would be interesting, though, as Lee will only last one term. Don't forget he's rather sick by 1864. So I can't see him going for Presidential candidate (or even VP again) in 1868. In fact he could be even dead by then.

So I'd expect Grant or maybe even Chamberlain to be either Lincoln's VP or, if Lincoln doesn't stand for a third term, as Presidential candidate. My personal favourate is Chamberlain, but Grant is probably the more realistic choice.


Wendell said:
Hey, will Nebraska rename its capital after Lincoln in TTL?
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I can't see why not.
 
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