The Rains Of Shiloh April 1862

[Jason Sleeman]

Forces

Lee's Army Of Northern Virginia is on the Peninsula facing McClellan He Has...

I Corps- Albert Sidney Johnston aprox 30,000

III Corps James Longstreet 25,000

ANV= 55.000

II Corps Joseph Johnston is in the Valley at Winchester with 16,000 troops
he is technically part of ANV

by june II Corps will be facing the union V corps which is at Charles Town WV
and is commanded by George Thomas w 18,500 troops

at Corinth Miss, The Army of Tennessee 40,000 strong with the addition of the Stonewall Brigade under command of Stonewall Jackson

He is faced by Grant's Army of the Cumberland 60,000 strong

In Memphis Beauregard has 15,000 troops and support from Forrest's Cavalry



how might these campaigns play out?

I'd like some feedback so i can continue this

Thanks

Jason Sleeman aka Glamrocker

 

[DMA]

Well McCellen gets kicked off the Peninsular again as per OTL. Northern Virginia is more or less freed of Union forces. Lee then heads north & we get Antietam. It's a hard fought battle, but the Rebs just win in a close contest. However, Lee can't really stay up north for long, so withdraws with the Army of the Potomac keeping a respectful distance.

The Valley campaign will be a drawn out affair. Joe will conduct a fighting withdrawal in the face of Thomas. But I don't expect any major battles. In many respects it'll be a stalemate.

Grant will have his hands full at Corinth. I doubt a major battle will take place between the two armies (yet). Instead Jackson will concentrate his attacks on the edges of Grant's army. This will be almost a daily affair. Grant will be forced to withdraw to the river to secure at least one flank, gain support from the USN, & ensure his supply lines are kept open. We may find ourselves back at Shiloh...

The Reb force at Memphis won't do much. A few raids up north, but that's about all. However, with Grant retreating back to Shiloh, Jackson may call for reinforcements thinking that a big battle is now called for. So Beauregard & Forrest's forces unite with Jackson's forces to attack Grant at Fourth Shiloh. The outcome is a flip of a coin. Either way, the Mississippi River remains safe in the hands of the South.

 

[Jason Sleeman]

4th Shiloh

We just can't do that DMA... no more room in the area to bury the casualties.

Good progression though in all seriousness DMA

I saw it unfolding a bit differently myself, here's how I saw it

Peninsula Campaign

McClellan is defeated as per OTL with a few differences

No Malvern Hill - I have to believe A.S Johnston would talk Lee out of such a costly uphill attack and that Lee would respect his council enough to take that advice. A less costly (for the South) takes place and McClellan evacuates the peninsula

Johnston remains on the defensive for the time being on the hills around Winchester, although some minor skirmishes take place near Berryville Va
midway between the two forces

Jackson decides to use deception to try and fool Grant. During the night of June 18th 1862 Jackson pulls his men into a railroad cut just north of Corinth

Grant gets word from his scouts that Jackson has flown the coop

Skeptical of these reports Grant orders a recon in force of brigade size to seize Corinth if unoccupied but to break contact if opposed

now Jackson who is unseen by the advancing brigade has a choice... fire on the brigade from his position in the railroad cut or hope that they bypass his position and wait for Grant's main body to arrive. what will he do? what would you do? (aka I need ideas)

Beauregard advances cautiously northward towards Paducah Where Buell has a 6000 man garrison Forrest raids union supply lines in southwest Kentucky

Also I think regardless a fight won't take place at antietam as the odds of Lee's Special order being found were very slim. So in this timeline i don't see it happening

So now Lee repossitions his army into Northern Virginia.

Will he recall II corps from the valley or try to beat Pope with the 50,000 men he'll have on hand?

thoughts?

Jason Sleeman

 

[Hyperion]

If Grant is forced to retreat back to the Shiloh/Savannah area again, assume that by now he and all other top officers in the area have taken the liberty of setting up some good fortifications, and the Union has control of the Tennessee River, so he can get naval support if necessary. On the other hand, what about other areas, like Louisiana and North Carolina?

Most of the Confederates troops main army forces should be occupied in the Tennessee-Mississippi area, and the Virginia area, but The Union has a manpower and industrial advantage, and by 1862 has made some nice inroads into Louisiana and North Carolina, including the Capture of New Orleans, which is the South's largest city. Perhaps the Union commander in New Orleans decides to bring in a force to advance along the Mississippi from a southern direction.

 

[DMA]

Well if it's not 4th Shiloh, then it's Crump's Landing. But somewhere around this area I see another battle taking place. I really don't see Grant getting caught in an ambush around Corinth - especially after 1st Shiloh. You yourself are even thinking in that regards with this brigade recon mission. Instead I see Jackson more or less repeating his tactics of the OTL Valley campaign. This will force Grant to withdraw as he won't be able to force Jackson into a major engagement (unless Grant makes a big blunder which he won't).

I completely agree with what happens in the Valley.

Likewise I can go along with what happens in Virginia, except the last part. Lee will invade north. Now whether the big battle takes place at Antieham or not, doesn't overly matter. A big battle somewhere in Maryland I'd imagine will take place. Lee narrowly wins, thanks to Johnston as much as anybody, but won't have the resources to press on his victory. Lee reluctantly withdraws. But such a defeat for the Union means there's no emancipation declaration. It may also mean the Union doesn't go onto the offensive in 1863.

Lastly, I don't think Beauregard will overly do much. he'll view his role as a support role for Jackson. Forrest, though, will conduct several raids, but none will be about retaking & holding territory. It'll be more of a extension of Jackson's harrasment stratergy of Grant's postion.

The important battle of 1862 will be out west. So if it's not 4th Shiloh, it's Crump's Landing. Beauregard meets up with Jackson & their combined numbers are 55 000 v 60 000 under Grant. Jackson will probably do something like this:

1) Beauregard's Corps, with some support (say 25 000 troops), will advance up the road from Shiloh, straight into Grant's lines. This is nothing but a feign. Beauregard's job is merely to keep Grant occupied.

2) Jackson, at the same time, will take 30 000 troops & conduct a forced march on Adamsville to the west of Crump's Landing. Here he'll then turn east & again force march smashing into Grant's flank.

3) Grant withdraws as best he can to Crump's landing, where he evacuates what he can of his army across the river to safety.

Basically, it's a re-run of Chancellorsville.

 

[DMA]

Here's a quick map I did of the Battle of Crump's Landing (4th Shiloh) I was going on about.

 

[Hierophant]

Has any one thought that Johnston could be put in command of the ANV with Lee as the subordinate? AS Johnston was revered by Davis, and only after his death did Lee step into that role.

 

[Hierophant]

To build on this, if Johnston the commander isnt too keen on invading the north, maybe he could send a division under Lee to threaten Washington while he and the rest of the ANV cross over the Applachians into Kentucky, while Jackson is keeping grant busy.

 

[DMA]

Has any one thought that Johnston could be put in command of the ANV with Lee as the subordinate? AS Johnston was revered by Davis, and only after his death did Lee step into that role.

But how does Davis justify giving overall command to A.S. Johnston after he is defeated by Grant & pushed back to Corinth?

To build on this, if Johnston the commander isnt too keen on invading the north, maybe he could send a division under Lee to threaten Washington while he and the rest of the ANV cross over the Applachians into Kentucky, while Jackson is keeping grant busy.

Any such attempt to attack Washington with merely a division is folly. There are more than enough Union defenders around Washington to drive Lee away regardless how skillful Lee is. It'll come down to sheer numbers: Lee, with say 10 000 troops, verse at least 50 000 Union defenders. You may even have a situation take place similar to Early's Valley-Washington Campaign of 1864. The Union simply storms into the Valley, sweeping all Rebs aside, & close the Valley off from the South for the rest of the War. If so, then it's a major set-back for the Rebs.

 

[Hierophant]

I didnt elaborate. I thiniking AS goes east after 1 or 2 stalemates at Shiloh, not in total defeat.

But even if he were defeated, werent there many worse confederate generals who would loose battles just to be shuffled into another theater?

A division isnt enough, yes. I guess he would have to have enough men to be a serious threat. What if its Lee and a small contingent of the ANV who invade Kentucky, while AS and the rest of the ANV stay in Virginia?

 

[DMA]

I didnt elaborate. I thiniking AS goes east after 1 or 2 stalemates at Shiloh, not in total defeat.

Well that's possible. So before 3rd Shiloh I gather. The problem here is, whoever remains behind for 3rd Shiloh - whether it be Bragg or Beauregard, is going to get their arse kicked real hard. as a result, Grant will be able to go on a rampage & probably end up taking Memphis. That makes it really hard then for the South not to be broken in two somewhere in 1863 akin to the OTL Vicksburg campaign.

But even if he were defeated, werent there many worse confederate generals who would loose battles just to be shuffled into another theater?

Well sure, but by this stage Lee must have established himself in Virigina. And if Lee, by now, has kicked McClellen off the Peninsular, why then replace him?

A division isnt enough, yes. I guess he would have to have enough men to be a serious threat. What if its Lee and a small contingent of the ANV who invade Kentucky, while AS and the rest of the ANV stay in Virginia?

The problem of invading Kentucky is politics as much as anything. So it'll ensure that the "neutral" states are well & truly now Union states. Having said all that, if the ANV invades Kentucky, & there's only a small force defending Rickmond, nothing will stop the Army of the Potomac from taking Richmond & much of Virginia. And don't forget Rosecrans & the Army of the Cumberland is covering northern Kentucky around this time with about 55 000 troops. So the ANV will be involved with a nasty fight for Kentucky anyway.

All I foreseen is a lot of set-backs for the South with little gain. Certainly Rickmond is more than likely lost, even if Kentucky is gained. I don't know about your thoughts, but I think Davis wouldn't be overly impressed with the results. And if Richmond goes in 1862, I think it's pretty much over, even if the Confederacy can hang on for a few more years. Furthermore, Lincoln will be re-elected & will thus pursue the war until Union victory akin to the OTL.

 

[Hierophant]

I think you have a much deeper grasp of Cival war history then I do. It seems to me that McClellan did a whole lot of nothing prior to Antietam, and if things go with out the thrust into Pennsylvania, he would probably keep command, and continue belieiving bullshit troop numbers.

 

[DMA]

I think you have a much deeper grasp of Cival war history then I do. It seems to me that McClellan did a whole lot of nothing prior to Antietam, and if things go with out the thrust into Pennsylvania, he would probably keep command, and continue belieiving bullshit troop numbers.

Actually McCellan was removed after the Peninsular bungle. He was only reinstated as GOC Potomac when Lee headed north.

But essentially you're right about McCellan. His problem was he really wasn't a combat commander. He was a great organiser & trainer, but not a combat commander. It would have been better if McCellan was made Chief of Staff or Quartermaster General or some other high posting that are crucial to the war effort, so his administrative skills could have been used to maximum efficiency.

Who becomes GOC Potomac early on, though, is the problem, as they're all pretty well hopeless. Probably Hooker should have been brought forward earlier, but possibly he wouldn't have done any better than the rest of a long list of sorry looking incompetents. The Army of the Potomac, though, really gets going when Meade comes to the fore, but I'd doubt they'll look towards him until they've just about tried everyone else. So I wouldn't expect Meade to become GOC Potomac until early 1863 at the earliest. But once he does take command, Lee no longer has it easy.

 

[Hierophant]

So its possible that Lee or Johnston could a diversionary advance somewhere in Virgina, while the rest of the ANV either invades Kentucky or reinforces The Army of the Tennesse to achieve troop parity or superiority?

 

[DMA]

So its possible that Lee or Johnston could a diversionary advance somewhere in Virgina, while the rest of the ANV either invades Kentucky or reinforces The Army of the Tennesse to achieve troop parity or superiority?

They could try, but it makes the Reb position in Virigina dangerous. Afterall the Army of the Potomac is about 100 000 or so strong. Now move most of the ANV, say 55 000 troops, to Kentucky, & that leaves at best only 20 000 troops to defend Northern Virginia.

So say the ANV does move to northern Kentucky & tackles the Army of the Cumberland. Numbers wise it'll be an even contest. But, far more importantly, Washington will know within hours (thanks to the telegraph) that Virigina hasn't got many troops left to defend Richmond.

Furthemore, the Army of the Cumberland isn't a crappy outfit. It'll be able to fight it out with the ANV. In fact Lee may even get a nasty surprise as to how hard the fighting is in Kentucky. Certainly at OTL Chickamauga, Longstreet's Corps soon learned the fighting was much tougher out west than in Virginia.

All this means that the ANV is committed to Kentucky & just won't be able to drop everything immediately & rush back to Virigina. And if Hooker is now GOC Potomac, he'll probably march on Richmond & there won't be much that the Rebs could do to stop the Army of the Potomac other than whistle Dixie defiantly. So that isn't very helpful for the South cause...

Instead, what Lee could try is send one corps to Kentucky, say Longstreet's 20 000 troops (not hard considering the OTL Chickamauga), where Longstreet pulls together troops from elsewhere, which can be spared (say another 20 000 troops), & then Longstreet launches his own invasion of Kentucky. Kentucky then becomes a seperate threatre in itself.

Such a situation thus ensures Lee has 55 000 troops. This is more than enough to stop any Union offensive in Virigina, whilst Longstreet's army is enough to make contact with Roscrans forces, & then go onto the defensive as well. And when Longstreet is on the defensive, he is pretty much undefeatable.

 

[Hierophant]

Sweet. Another front to the north of Grant will surely help whoever is commanding the Army of Tenn. If enough of the south was still in Confederate hands, there troop numbers from conscription should be larger, as well as access to raw resources and greater use of the rails.

 

[DMA]

Sweet. Another front to the north of Grant will surely help whoever is commanding the Army of Tenn. If enough of the south was still in Confederate hands, there troop numbers from conscription should be larger, as well as access to raw resources and greater use of the rails.

Well this will certainly be the case for 1862. Maybe even 1863. But two things:

1) My entire strategy here is defensive. But, the Rebs are getting stretched. And this leads to the big problem;

2) The Union has the numbers which can still overwhelm the South from mid-1863 onwards.

So it'll basically play along the OTL plans of Lee. Make the Union bleed to the point that continuation of the war will end up being too costly for the Union. But that all depends upon the price that the Union is prepared to pay. And if Grant still manages to become overall commander, the Union will simply employ the strategy of grinding down the South akin to OTL. If so, then it makes it awfully hard for the Confederacy to survive let alone win.

 

[Hierophant]

I think the best peace the Confederates could get this late in the war without allies, would be a modified bordered based on the lines of Control the Union has in the south.

 

[DMA]

I think the best peace the Confederates could get this late in the war without allies, would be a modified bordered based on the lines of Control the Union has in the south.

Yeah, I agree. If they can hold out that long. The South needs to hold out until the 1864 Persidential elections AND Lincoln loses...

 

[Hierophant]

I wonder if its plausible for McCleelan to be assasinated before he takes office and his veep, a copperhead or at least someone weak enough to give the South all 11 states could then take the presidency?

And!, if lincoln would willingly hand power to such an individual. I know im getting off topic, but if faced with utter humiliation, could the Union Generals agree with Lincoln to start a coup?