Grant prepared
Johnston would have a tough time dislodging Grant if he were prepared to recieve an attack
Johnston would have a tough time dislodging Grant if he were prepared to recieve an attack
The Rains Of Shiloh April 1862
- Thread starter Jason Sleeman
- Start date
2nd Fort Donelson
DMA- so a 2nd Donelson might be a feasible way to continue then?
thanks for the geographical info btw.
DMA- so a 2nd Donelson might be a feasible way to continue then?
thanks for the geographical info btw.
Jason Sleeman said:
Well the only problem here is I don't believe that Buell will retreat to Fort Donelson. He'll stay at Savannah. There are far too many advantages in keeping Savannah & this is besides the fact that he'll have orders not to retreat. And even if Buell is sacked at some point, & Grant put back in charge (which would probably be the case), you can bet your last dollar that Grant won't withdraw. The most likely thing is a Third Shiloh. It'll be Grant v Johnston. Grant wins.
Now the long term effects from all these engagements out west is bad for the Rebs. They can't replace their losses, but the Union can. In fact the west of the Confederacy could fall to the Union much earlier than OTL by at least a year, if not two.
long shot
might take alien space bats to pull of a southern victory momentum in april 1862.
it seems even if they won a third shiloh without control of the tennesee they can't follow up
whats more, as DMA pointed out the south can't absorb the casualties
if it came to a 3rd shiloh which Johnston lost he would be forced to back away from Grant possibly leading to an earler Vicksburg unless some masterpiece of Southern tactics were to come into play
i still think it possible that Halleck may try to assume command himself which may be the only hope for Johnston to salvage his situation
might take alien space bats to pull of a southern victory momentum in april 1862.
it seems even if they won a third shiloh without control of the tennesee they can't follow up
whats more, as DMA pointed out the south can't absorb the casualties
if it came to a 3rd shiloh which Johnston lost he would be forced to back away from Grant possibly leading to an earler Vicksburg unless some masterpiece of Southern tactics were to come into play
i still think it possible that Halleck may try to assume command himself which may be the only hope for Johnston to salvage his situation
Well Grant's future is really up to Lincoln. Even in the OTL, as you'd know, Lincoln took a lot of flack over Grant. So the same is repeated here. In Grant's favour is still the fact that he technically hasn't lost a battle yet. So all Lincoln does, to get Halleck out of the way, is to promote him elsewhere akin to the OTL.
Grant is thus reinstated, gets some reinforcements, & starts again from Savannah. Johnston has to hang around Shiloh to protect Corinth. So yes, Johnston can't do anything much for the rest of Tennessee.
Meanwhile, Grant will try this, that, & something else to defeat Johnston. It wouldn't surprise me if Grant loads up his army, sails past Johnston, lands his army to the west of Corinth, & marches on the city. Johnston is caught off step & must race back to Corinth to defend it. Grant, however, gets there first (or at least to a strong defensive position near the city) & waits for Johnston's arrival. The Rebs attack but are defeated & withdraws west to protect Memphis & the Mississippi River.
At this point, Grant can basically do whatever he wants with impunity (although Johnston will keep him honest). He can chase after the Rebs, turn south towards the Mexican Gulf, or east into Alabama thus threatening Georgia.
Grant is thus reinstated, gets some reinforcements, & starts again from Savannah. Johnston has to hang around Shiloh to protect Corinth. So yes, Johnston can't do anything much for the rest of Tennessee.
Meanwhile, Grant will try this, that, & something else to defeat Johnston. It wouldn't surprise me if Grant loads up his army, sails past Johnston, lands his army to the west of Corinth, & marches on the city. Johnston is caught off step & must race back to Corinth to defend it. Grant, however, gets there first (or at least to a strong defensive position near the city) & waits for Johnston's arrival. The Rebs attack but are defeated & withdraws west to protect Memphis & the Mississippi River.
At this point, Grant can basically do whatever he wants with impunity (although Johnston will keep him honest). He can chase after the Rebs, turn south towards the Mexican Gulf, or east into Alabama thus threatening Georgia.
Is this a weird twist?
Just had a thought!
At this point in our discourse we have arrived at May 1862 so how about this?
We take DMA's idea about Grant retaining command
Jefferson Davis is furious about Joe Johnston's insubordination and his failure to hold Williamsburg and removes him and orders A.S Johnston east to organise Rebel Forces on the Peninsula and find a way to defeat MCClellan
Robert E Lee is named to command the Army of Tennessee (Beauregard will be temporary commander until Lee arrives)
Joe Johnston will be sent to overall command of Ewell and Jackson in the Valley
what ramifications does Davis's shake-up in command bring to the war?
Just had a thought!
At this point in our discourse we have arrived at May 1862 so how about this?
We take DMA's idea about Grant retaining command
Jefferson Davis is furious about Joe Johnston's insubordination and his failure to hold Williamsburg and removes him and orders A.S Johnston east to organise Rebel Forces on the Peninsula and find a way to defeat MCClellan
Robert E Lee is named to command the Army of Tennessee (Beauregard will be temporary commander until Lee arrives)
Joe Johnston will be sent to overall command of Ewell and Jackson in the Valley
what ramifications does Davis's shake-up in command bring to the war?
Jason Sleeman said:
Not a bad idea here, except one major problem: Lee won't leave Virgina whilst it's under threat from the Union. So remove Joe Johnston, but I think you don't have any other choice but Lee.
Before I say anything else about this reorganisation, though, has Grant defeat A. S. Johnston at Corinth/Third Shiloh?
3rd Shiloh
Yes We'll have Grant Win 3rd Shiloh
But 3rd Shiloh will be a less major affair because A.S Johnston will withdraw as Shiloh will become untenable since Johnston is once again significantly outnumbered
Grant 60,000
Johnston 38,000
Johnston will fight long enough to bloody Grant's nose a bit and satisfy "Southern Honor and will then withdrawl behind a rearguard of Forrest's Troopers back to Corinth.
Ok So Lee will command the Peninsula
Joe Johnston The Valley
and then we'll have A.S Johnston try to hold off Grant
also Beauregard will be in charge of a small force at Memphis to be possibly formed into a Corps sized army in time.
hows that for starters?
Yes We'll have Grant Win 3rd Shiloh
But 3rd Shiloh will be a less major affair because A.S Johnston will withdraw as Shiloh will become untenable since Johnston is once again significantly outnumbered
Grant 60,000
Johnston 38,000
Johnston will fight long enough to bloody Grant's nose a bit and satisfy "Southern Honor and will then withdrawl behind a rearguard of Forrest's Troopers back to Corinth.
Ok So Lee will command the Peninsula
Joe Johnston The Valley
and then we'll have A.S Johnston try to hold off Grant
also Beauregard will be in charge of a small force at Memphis to be possibly formed into a Corps sized army in time.
hows that for starters?
Jason Sleeman said:
yes, all that sounds much better.
Here's a thought for you to contemplate - Jackson goes out west to replace A.S. Johnston. So it's Grant v Jackson.
A. S. Johnston comes to Virigina to become one of Lee's corps commanders. Thus the ANV has Lee as commander with Longstreet & A.S. Johnstone as corps commmanders.
DMA said:
Johnston in the valley instead of Stonewall? Dunno why, but I don't like the idea...
Would AS Johnston be glad to be demoted to be just a Corps Commander? I dunno...
By the way, wonderful job here, gentlemen. DMA, as usual, simply superb.
Johnston
A.S Johnston outranked Lee so I don't think he would serve in a lesser capacity unless he makes a colossal error.
At this time Jackson was quite sucessful in the valley I can't see him being transfered at this juncture
Another (perhaps lesser) factor to ponder is the fate of Bragg,
With Lee commanding on the peninsula Davis will need a new advisor, so lets have Bragg go to richmond in June 1862 and have Cheatham assume his field command.
thoughts?
A.S Johnston outranked Lee so I don't think he would serve in a lesser capacity unless he makes a colossal error.
At this time Jackson was quite sucessful in the valley I can't see him being transfered at this juncture
Another (perhaps lesser) factor to ponder is the fate of Bragg,
With Lee commanding on the peninsula Davis will need a new advisor, so lets have Bragg go to richmond in June 1862 and have Cheatham assume his field command.
thoughts?
Kurt_Steiner said:
Thanks! I try
My idea, with the two command changes, is that Jackson is probably the only Reb general, who can take a medium sized force, & take on a larger one. Obviously I'm thinking of his Valley Campaign. So it would be interesting to see how Grant could cope with such an agressive, but brillant opposite number - especially out around Cornith etc.
A. S. Johnston may be a problem taking orders from Lee. But then again Lee had a way working around such people. More importantly, if A.S. Johnston was at Gettysburg, a three things would happen:
First - not only would the town be taken, on the first day, but the hills behind it would have been taken as well. As a result, the Rebs win at Gettysburg.
Secondly - if Cemetery Hill & Culp's Hill weren't taken by the Rebs, the rest of the Battle of Gettysburg would not have been fought. Now Longstreet may have backed down to Lee's demand that the South fight at Gettysburg, but I'd doubt that A.S. Johnston would have put up with such nonsense.
And this leads to my final point - a second battle, instead of Gettysburg, would have been fought near Washington DC on ground chosen by Lee. So I'd expect the Army of the Potomac to be defeated.
Thus, such a simple command swap, Jackson for Johnston, could have been a war winner IMHO. This is, of course, provided Johnston (& Jackson for that matter) lived to see such days...
Jason Sleeman said:
He has. He lost Third Shiloh & Corinth to Grant.
Jason Sleeman said:
Hence, if he's the South's most successful commander, it's thus logical to pitt him against the Union's most successful commander.
Jason Sleeman said:
If you want to ensure Confederate defeat, put Bragg in charge of an army. The best position for Bragg is Quartermaster General.
Jason Sleeman said:
Yes, that's possible, but as I said, Bragg would probably make a very good Quartermaster General IMHO.
O.K lets piece this together
I'm still not sure about pulling Jackson out of the valley but it is within the realm of possibility so what the hell, let me take a stab at this.
Lets just have Lee see the situation as DMA does and have him convince Davis that Jackson could be the only chance of producing a transformation of the western situation
Jackson- goes to Corinth to command the Army of Tennesee. He arrives in early June 1862 he brings with him at his own insistance the Stonewall Brigade.
Jackson reorganizes his command removing Leonidas Polk and replacing him with Patrick Cleburne
Jubal Early takes command of Jackson's division in the Valley
The Confederate II Corps /The Army of The Valley is a 16,000 man force commanded by Joe Johnston with Early and Ewell as his two division commanders
A.S Johnston arrives in the east to command I Corps of The Army of Virginia under Lee on the Peninsula
III Corps Army Of Virginia is placed under James Longstreet
Beauregard commands 15,000 confederates around Memphis with an eye on Retaking either Columbus or Paducah Ky
The Stage is now set for battles in both theatres that could decide the war
Gentlemen place your bets now
Again thanks for the great feedback and Ideas guys
DMA your thoroughness is appreciated
Jason
Poet/Philosopher/Hair Metal Enthusiast
I'm still not sure about pulling Jackson out of the valley but it is within the realm of possibility so what the hell, let me take a stab at this.
Lets just have Lee see the situation as DMA does and have him convince Davis that Jackson could be the only chance of producing a transformation of the western situation
Jackson- goes to Corinth to command the Army of Tennesee. He arrives in early June 1862 he brings with him at his own insistance the Stonewall Brigade.
Jackson reorganizes his command removing Leonidas Polk and replacing him with Patrick Cleburne
Jubal Early takes command of Jackson's division in the Valley
The Confederate II Corps /The Army of The Valley is a 16,000 man force commanded by Joe Johnston with Early and Ewell as his two division commanders
A.S Johnston arrives in the east to command I Corps of The Army of Virginia under Lee on the Peninsula
III Corps Army Of Virginia is placed under James Longstreet
Beauregard commands 15,000 confederates around Memphis with an eye on Retaking either Columbus or Paducah Ky
The Stage is now set for battles in both theatres that could decide the war
Gentlemen place your bets now
Again thanks for the great feedback and Ideas guys
DMA your thoroughness is appreciated
Jason
Poet/Philosopher/Hair Metal Enthusiast
Whoa! Now that's a very interesting command structure for the South.
As a matter of interest, who gets ANV II Corps?
I'd say the rest of 1862 is a year of Hell for the Union.
First off, Grant will have his hands full fighting Jackson. It wouldn't surprise me if Grant soon finds himself back at Savannah by Christmas.
The Union lose at Antietam, but Lee withdraws back to Virigina due to casualities. However, there's no emancipation declaration.
The Valley probably remains somewhat quiet, but is firmly in Confederate hands.
I haven't got a clue what happens in 1863 due to all the variables. Best guess is the ACW ends in stalemate, somewhere in early 1865 due to Lincoln being defeated, provided the South doesn't suffer a Gettysburg &/or Vicksburg type defeat(s) in 1863-4.
As a matter of interest, who gets ANV II Corps?
I'd say the rest of 1862 is a year of Hell for the Union.
First off, Grant will have his hands full fighting Jackson. It wouldn't surprise me if Grant soon finds himself back at Savannah by Christmas.
The Union lose at Antietam, but Lee withdraws back to Virigina due to casualities. However, there's no emancipation declaration.
The Valley probably remains somewhat quiet, but is firmly in Confederate hands.
I haven't got a clue what happens in 1863 due to all the variables. Best guess is the ACW ends in stalemate, somewhere in early 1865 due to Lincoln being defeated, provided the South doesn't suffer a Gettysburg &/or Vicksburg type defeat(s) in 1863-4.
2nd Corps
II Corps in the Valley although nominally independant is under Lee's Command as part of the ANV
II Corps in the Valley although nominally independant is under Lee's Command as part of the ANV
George Thomas
Also Grant in OTL wasn't too fond of George Thomas so lets have him transfered east to try to salvage things in the valley after Banks is smashed up at Winchester so lets have Thomas reorganize the Union Valley Forces Between Martinsburg&Charles Town WV to protect Harpers Ferry
sound fun ?
Also Grant in OTL wasn't too fond of George Thomas so lets have him transfered east to try to salvage things in the valley after Banks is smashed up at Winchester so lets have Thomas reorganize the Union Valley Forces Between Martinsburg&Charles Town WV to protect Harpers Ferry
sound fun
?Jason Sleeman said:Also Grant in OTL wasn't too fond of George Thomas so lets have him transfered east to try to salvage things in the valley after Banks is smashed up at Winchester so lets have Thomas reorganize the Union Valley Forces Between Martinsburg&Charles Town WV to protect Harpers Ferry
sound fun
Oh! Now that's an interesting dynamic. Thomas in the Valley up against Joe eh? My money is on Thomas! The Union isn't completely at a loss afterall...