I mean, if a fight is fair then both participants screwed up, usually.....
The Rainbow. A World War One on Canada's West Coast Timeline
- Thread starter YYJ
- Start date
Then you could also advocate that the USN did not win operation Ten-gō (the suicide mission of Yamato during the Battle of Okinawa).
Indeed, sending 400 carrier planes against one battleship, one light cruiser and 8 destroyers appears not a "Fair Fight". Would you not agree?
Nonsense those planes cost way less to purchase than Yamato and her escorts
If you have come looking for a fair fight, this timeline may be unsatisfying.
The crew of the Canadian boat will, though. Within a few tellings, they stood off a cruiser all by themselves, and sooner or later it will grow to a battlecruiser or dreadnought.
Wait till the propaganda boys and politicians get a hold of it. They are going to need something to offset the tales of destruction that will leak through the inevitable censorship and actions like this will become the stuff of legends regardless of anything as mundane as facts.
I understand this to be framing "fair fight" in terms of the sides being "equal", and "price" being a measure of the industrial output required to make the forces on either side. It cost Japan a whole lot more to make the Yamato and her escorts than it cost the US to make the 400 planes that sank them (presuming the aircraft assembly line were up and running so we are looking at cost per unit rather than including the whole R&D for the aircraft models.)
So from a tactical perspective, the battle was so skewed in favour of the US to be a massacre. From a strategic industrial perspective, if you were gaming the battle, Japan could have bought much more other stuff for that same $, so they could have brought like, 2000 Zeros with good pilots, for example. You know?
Coulsdon Eagle
Monthly Donor
Suggest you need to factor in the cost of all the CVs that supplied the 400 planes. No CVs no strike.
Any other surprises?
Aug 20, 1630 hours. SMS Nürnberg, Ucluelet harbour.
“I have my men going over all of the newspapers we could gather in the town,” said Von Schönberg conversationally to Haun. “To see what intelligence we can gather. It is amazing what information you can find in the shipping pages. They came up with this letter to the editor. I thought you might find it amusing.” The men sat at the table in the Nurnberg’s Captain’s cabin, sternmost compartment on Nürnberg’s upper deck. As it had been since the age of sail, the cabin had warlike duties when battle called, a 5.2 cm gun on each side of the cabin flanked the table, sitting behind folded shutters. These guns were, for the moment, uncrewed, as Von Schönberg had allocated his scarce manpower to the main armament. As he read, men shuffled into the room and stood waiting.
“This is from the August 19th edition of the Victoria Daily Colonist, page 11. ” Von Schönberg held up the paper and read. “Sirs, Having read in the local papers today the remarks reported to have been uttered by the captain of the German cruiser Leipzig before he left San Francisco, with reference to ‘the traditions of the German Navy,’ from which one would gather the navy had been long in existence, I cannot help recalling to my mind that the foundation of the present German navy was laid as recently as 1855. In that year the Prussian Government exchanged two double-ender paddlewheel gunboats of light draught for the 36-gun sailing frigate Thetis, to be used as a training ship for their future navy.” Haun raised his eyebrows as he listened, sometimes smiling, sometimes frowning.
Von Schönberg continued reading. “The Thetis, under the command of Captain Kuper, was on this station in 1851-’52-’53. The names of the ship and her officers have been given to many islands etc. in these waters.
“Many of the officers and men of the Thetis were shipmates of mine in the Nile, and we had little thought when, on our return from the Baltic in 1855, and saw the old ship lying in the Hamoaze in Devonport, that she was to be the school for training sailors for a navy that 50 years afterward would threaten our shores.
“From this you will see that as the German Empire, founded in 1871, is one of the youngest of empires, so their navy, started by the Prussians, is not very old, and can hardly boast of many traditions.
“Thanking you for your courtesy in finding space for this letter. P.W. Rolston, Fleet Surgeon, R.N. (retired). Victoria, August 18, 1914.”
“How about that!” exclaimed Haun. “A history lesson. Thank you, Doctor Rolston.”
“Well then,” said Von Schönberg sardonically, “Let’s make some history of our own, shall we?”
While Liepzig was coaling, Von Schönberg had called a war council in Nürnberg’s commander’s cabin. Present were the captains of the two cruisers and their seconds in command; Lieutenants Von Spee and Radl from the Princess Charlotte, and the two newly arrived pilots. The Trade Commissioner Meyer was invited as a representative of the Imperial German Government, and also for his knowledge of the area’s economy and industry.
“Gentlemen, please sit.” began Von Schönberg. Chairs squeaked on the linoleum, and then were still. “We are gathered to our fullest strength,” he nodded to Captain Haun, “and we are coiled to strike. We are here on this coast in the enemy’s territory at a historical moment when our local superiority is almost absolute. It is incumbent on us to use this moment to the greatest effect to the war effort, for the glory of the Kaiser.”
All the voices in the room joined in with “Hear, Hear!”
“Tomorrow we are going to embark on our boldest strike yet, at the heart of the enemy’s port facilities in Vancouver, Victoria, and Nanaimo, and at their military establishment in Esquimalt. More than any other, I understand how risky a proposition this is, but we will never again be presented with such an opportunity. We would be delinquent in our duty to let this moment pass through an excess ofcaution.”
“Even now, this meeting could be interrupted at any second if our lookouts spot approaching naval units. But our best intelligence says that Royal Navy is still occupied trying to find Admiral Von Spee’s forces in the central Pacific, and Japan will not enter the war for another three days. Canada’s sole naval vessel on this coast is chasing phantom wireless messages 400 miles to the north. In any case either the Leipzig or Nürnberg could singlehandedly defeat this one obsolete Canadian cruiser without much difficulty.”
The naval officers perked up as the scope of the upcoming action was unveiled. Captain Haun in particular seemed enthused. “And what of the disposition of the submarines?” he asked.
“Submarines?” responded Von Schönberg blankly.
“Yes, the submarines the Canadians have at Esquimalt,” replied Haun.
Von Schönberg was speechless. He finally managed, “I have heard nothing of this. Please enlighten us.”
“I learned of them on the 6th,” replied Haun seriously. “From American marine wireless when we were off San Diego. I was surprised, but I did not expect their presence would change anything. If we were operating out of Wilhelmshaven we would have to be alert for submarines.”
“Yes,” replied Von Schönberg, “I suppose you are right.” He paused to internalize this information. “It should not affect our strategy. But we will need to adjust our tactics. We will have to post submarine watch, and keep our ships in motion all the time. A cruiser at speed will make a difficult target. But then, submarines or not, we were already intending to blow through the enemy waters like a gale.”
“Any other surprises?” he asked. “Vancouver is said to be without any coastal artillery. Is that still true? Gentlemen?” Von Schönberg gestured towards Meyer and the Muellers.
The Germans from Vancouver all looked at each other. “Yes,” said Meyer. “That is correct. Vancouver had no coastal artillery when we left, and there was no talk of obtaining any. Of course, we have been incommunicado for three weeks. I cannot speak of what I do not know.”
“Alright. I have crewmen reading all the newspapers we gathered in the Ucluelet,” said Von Schönberg, “We will see if they contain any intelligence on this front. In the meantime, I would like to present our objectives as I see them. Lieutenant Radl?”
Radl produced some charts, and laid out 3 sheets on the table: a large scale one of Georgia Strait and the Gulf Islands, and two of smaller scale, of Vancouver harbour, and of Howe Sound.
“Tonight, fortuitously, will be sailing under a new moon, which will be much to our favour,” Von Schönberg continued. “In order to arrive off the approaches to Vancouver at first light tomorrow, we will have to leave the harbour here at 2230 hours sharp. We will have just passed from maritime dusk to absolute darkness at that point, which gives us the added advantage of shielding our passage from all of the lighthouses along this coast. This far south some lighthouses are connected by telegraph, and they could spoil our surprise if they report our passage. I am leaving the Galiano here to cut the transpacific cable at first light. I am also going to take the residents of Ucluelet aboard the Niagara for the duration of the raid, to avoid any heroics. The residents may be able to be landed back here later, or they may just have to come along to Apia, or Panama, or wherever we next make landfall.”
“We will be starting with concrete objectives, but if targets of opportunity present themselves, we can strike those, at captain’s discretions. My criteria for action are maximizing economic damage to war industries, preventing or at worst minimizing civilian casualties, and getting us all safely back out to sea as quickly as possible. Once we reveal ourselves, we will be able to use wireless freely to coordinate our movements. Due to our need for swift action, we will be unable to stop and board vessels or occupy shore installations in most cases. We will be relying on our guns. So we will use our sirens and warning shots to give civilians notice to get clear. Again, God willing, we should be able to achieve our objectives with out harming any civilians.”
Von Schönberg moved over to the chart and began to point with his finger. “I have looked at the timeline, and we should be able to strike all of our targets on the Strait of Georgia and be headed seaward past Esquimalt again by 1400 hours. We will be using the chaos we create to prevent enemy response. I do not want to give them any time to consolidate their situational understanding.”
“Nürnberg will attack Vancouver. Leipzig will attack Nanaimo and targets to the north. Princess Charlotte will attack Ladysmith, and targets on Vancouver Island to the south. We should, God willing, rendezvous and return in convoy, to bombard Victoria and Esquimalt in company. For specific targets, I have a few in mind, but I now invite you all to contribute to the list, drawing from your familiarity with the locality.”
The men leaned over the charts and there was much discussion. Lists were made and notes were taken. The long lists were winnowed down to a manageable set of targets, and objections discussed until all were satisfied.
Gentlemen, it looks like we are agreed, said Von Schönberg. “Let us get some rest if we can.”
A junior officer arrived at the wardroom door. “Sir!” he addressed Von Schönberg, “I have found a reference to submarines in the August 6 Victoria newspaper, The Daily Colonist.”
“Please read it to us,” said Von Schönberg.
The junior officer held up the paper to his eyes. “Uhh… , here it is. Page 4. ‘The Premier's Assistance. It will be a matter of great satisfaction to the people of British Columbia to learn of the part which Sir Richard McBride has taken during the past few days in placing his personal services and those of his Government at the disposal of the naval and military authorities. What he has done towards securing the two submarines which arrived here yesterday involved the devotion of more time and energy that can be very well told…’ and then it goes on like that, sir.”
“Thank you,” said Von Schönberg. “So submarines it is. Lets rest those eyes, we leave the harbour in five and a half hours.”
“I have my men going over all of the newspapers we could gather in the town,” said Von Schönberg conversationally to Haun. “To see what intelligence we can gather. It is amazing what information you can find in the shipping pages. They came up with this letter to the editor. I thought you might find it amusing.” The men sat at the table in the Nurnberg’s Captain’s cabin, sternmost compartment on Nürnberg’s upper deck. As it had been since the age of sail, the cabin had warlike duties when battle called, a 5.2 cm gun on each side of the cabin flanked the table, sitting behind folded shutters. These guns were, for the moment, uncrewed, as Von Schönberg had allocated his scarce manpower to the main armament. As he read, men shuffled into the room and stood waiting.
“This is from the August 19th edition of the Victoria Daily Colonist, page 11. ” Von Schönberg held up the paper and read. “Sirs, Having read in the local papers today the remarks reported to have been uttered by the captain of the German cruiser Leipzig before he left San Francisco, with reference to ‘the traditions of the German Navy,’ from which one would gather the navy had been long in existence, I cannot help recalling to my mind that the foundation of the present German navy was laid as recently as 1855. In that year the Prussian Government exchanged two double-ender paddlewheel gunboats of light draught for the 36-gun sailing frigate Thetis, to be used as a training ship for their future navy.” Haun raised his eyebrows as he listened, sometimes smiling, sometimes frowning.
Von Schönberg continued reading. “The Thetis, under the command of Captain Kuper, was on this station in 1851-’52-’53. The names of the ship and her officers have been given to many islands etc. in these waters.
“Many of the officers and men of the Thetis were shipmates of mine in the Nile, and we had little thought when, on our return from the Baltic in 1855, and saw the old ship lying in the Hamoaze in Devonport, that she was to be the school for training sailors for a navy that 50 years afterward would threaten our shores.
“From this you will see that as the German Empire, founded in 1871, is one of the youngest of empires, so their navy, started by the Prussians, is not very old, and can hardly boast of many traditions.
“Thanking you for your courtesy in finding space for this letter. P.W. Rolston, Fleet Surgeon, R.N. (retired). Victoria, August 18, 1914.”
“How about that!” exclaimed Haun. “A history lesson. Thank you, Doctor Rolston.”
“Well then,” said Von Schönberg sardonically, “Let’s make some history of our own, shall we?”
While Liepzig was coaling, Von Schönberg had called a war council in Nürnberg’s commander’s cabin. Present were the captains of the two cruisers and their seconds in command; Lieutenants Von Spee and Radl from the Princess Charlotte, and the two newly arrived pilots. The Trade Commissioner Meyer was invited as a representative of the Imperial German Government, and also for his knowledge of the area’s economy and industry.
“Gentlemen, please sit.” began Von Schönberg. Chairs squeaked on the linoleum, and then were still. “We are gathered to our fullest strength,” he nodded to Captain Haun, “and we are coiled to strike. We are here on this coast in the enemy’s territory at a historical moment when our local superiority is almost absolute. It is incumbent on us to use this moment to the greatest effect to the war effort, for the glory of the Kaiser.”
All the voices in the room joined in with “Hear, Hear!”
“Tomorrow we are going to embark on our boldest strike yet, at the heart of the enemy’s port facilities in Vancouver, Victoria, and Nanaimo, and at their military establishment in Esquimalt. More than any other, I understand how risky a proposition this is, but we will never again be presented with such an opportunity. We would be delinquent in our duty to let this moment pass through an excess ofcaution.”
“Even now, this meeting could be interrupted at any second if our lookouts spot approaching naval units. But our best intelligence says that Royal Navy is still occupied trying to find Admiral Von Spee’s forces in the central Pacific, and Japan will not enter the war for another three days. Canada’s sole naval vessel on this coast is chasing phantom wireless messages 400 miles to the north. In any case either the Leipzig or Nürnberg could singlehandedly defeat this one obsolete Canadian cruiser without much difficulty.”
The naval officers perked up as the scope of the upcoming action was unveiled. Captain Haun in particular seemed enthused. “And what of the disposition of the submarines?” he asked.
“Submarines?” responded Von Schönberg blankly.
“Yes, the submarines the Canadians have at Esquimalt,” replied Haun.
Von Schönberg was speechless. He finally managed, “I have heard nothing of this. Please enlighten us.”
“I learned of them on the 6th,” replied Haun seriously. “From American marine wireless when we were off San Diego. I was surprised, but I did not expect their presence would change anything. If we were operating out of Wilhelmshaven we would have to be alert for submarines.”
“Yes,” replied Von Schönberg, “I suppose you are right.” He paused to internalize this information. “It should not affect our strategy. But we will need to adjust our tactics. We will have to post submarine watch, and keep our ships in motion all the time. A cruiser at speed will make a difficult target. But then, submarines or not, we were already intending to blow through the enemy waters like a gale.”
“Any other surprises?” he asked. “Vancouver is said to be without any coastal artillery. Is that still true? Gentlemen?” Von Schönberg gestured towards Meyer and the Muellers.
The Germans from Vancouver all looked at each other. “Yes,” said Meyer. “That is correct. Vancouver had no coastal artillery when we left, and there was no talk of obtaining any. Of course, we have been incommunicado for three weeks. I cannot speak of what I do not know.”
“Alright. I have crewmen reading all the newspapers we gathered in the Ucluelet,” said Von Schönberg, “We will see if they contain any intelligence on this front. In the meantime, I would like to present our objectives as I see them. Lieutenant Radl?”
Radl produced some charts, and laid out 3 sheets on the table: a large scale one of Georgia Strait and the Gulf Islands, and two of smaller scale, of Vancouver harbour, and of Howe Sound.
“Tonight, fortuitously, will be sailing under a new moon, which will be much to our favour,” Von Schönberg continued. “In order to arrive off the approaches to Vancouver at first light tomorrow, we will have to leave the harbour here at 2230 hours sharp. We will have just passed from maritime dusk to absolute darkness at that point, which gives us the added advantage of shielding our passage from all of the lighthouses along this coast. This far south some lighthouses are connected by telegraph, and they could spoil our surprise if they report our passage. I am leaving the Galiano here to cut the transpacific cable at first light. I am also going to take the residents of Ucluelet aboard the Niagara for the duration of the raid, to avoid any heroics. The residents may be able to be landed back here later, or they may just have to come along to Apia, or Panama, or wherever we next make landfall.”
“We will be starting with concrete objectives, but if targets of opportunity present themselves, we can strike those, at captain’s discretions. My criteria for action are maximizing economic damage to war industries, preventing or at worst minimizing civilian casualties, and getting us all safely back out to sea as quickly as possible. Once we reveal ourselves, we will be able to use wireless freely to coordinate our movements. Due to our need for swift action, we will be unable to stop and board vessels or occupy shore installations in most cases. We will be relying on our guns. So we will use our sirens and warning shots to give civilians notice to get clear. Again, God willing, we should be able to achieve our objectives with out harming any civilians.”
Von Schönberg moved over to the chart and began to point with his finger. “I have looked at the timeline, and we should be able to strike all of our targets on the Strait of Georgia and be headed seaward past Esquimalt again by 1400 hours. We will be using the chaos we create to prevent enemy response. I do not want to give them any time to consolidate their situational understanding.”
“Nürnberg will attack Vancouver. Leipzig will attack Nanaimo and targets to the north. Princess Charlotte will attack Ladysmith, and targets on Vancouver Island to the south. We should, God willing, rendezvous and return in convoy, to bombard Victoria and Esquimalt in company. For specific targets, I have a few in mind, but I now invite you all to contribute to the list, drawing from your familiarity with the locality.”
The men leaned over the charts and there was much discussion. Lists were made and notes were taken. The long lists were winnowed down to a manageable set of targets, and objections discussed until all were satisfied.
Gentlemen, it looks like we are agreed, said Von Schönberg. “Let us get some rest if we can.”
A junior officer arrived at the wardroom door. “Sir!” he addressed Von Schönberg, “I have found a reference to submarines in the August 6 Victoria newspaper, The Daily Colonist.”
“Please read it to us,” said Von Schönberg.
The junior officer held up the paper to his eyes. “Uhh… , here it is. Page 4. ‘The Premier's Assistance. It will be a matter of great satisfaction to the people of British Columbia to learn of the part which Sir Richard McBride has taken during the past few days in placing his personal services and those of his Government at the disposal of the naval and military authorities. What he has done towards securing the two submarines which arrived here yesterday involved the devotion of more time and energy that can be very well told…’ and then it goes on like that, sir.”
“Thank you,” said Von Schönberg. “So submarines it is. Lets rest those eyes, we leave the harbour in five and a half hours.”
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Alright, the Germans are coming then. Let's hope they receive a warm welcome...
Ah we've finally got to this point and it seems like the Germans are going to be running to club every valuable Canadian holding in the area. Even with local assistance and maps though, I'm not sure the Germans realize how dangerous these areas are. The area around Vancouver Island is refereed to as the "Graveyard of the Pacific" for very good reason, incredibly unpredictable weather, wind, current, tides, etc alongside underwater rocks, sandbars, reefs and so on. Many experienced local pilots and their ships who operated in these areas for decades weren't safe from these dangers and I can't really see foreign pilots being much better. Ships moving around these areas with potentially older maps, in blackout conditions and with that ever present danger of lurking submarines can easily make a single mistake and end their ship(s) on a hungry rock.
I personally think the Germans have signed their death warrant here, with personnel stretched thin and morale high riding off victory after victory, there's going to be a sense of unfounded superiority rolling into these 'easy targets'. We know the submarines are essentially death traps with little effective range however, they are more than capable of sitting around off Canada's major cities/base on this coast and dumping torpedoes into any suspicious ships. The multitude of coastal artillery and forts (both already present and hastily setup) can do some serious damage here and unless the Germans continue to roll 20's, it's going to be a rough ride getting all the way through these defenses. Plus Rainbow wherever she lurks at this moment.
Go team Canada
I personally think the Germans have signed their death warrant here, with personnel stretched thin and morale high riding off victory after victory, there's going to be a sense of unfounded superiority rolling into these 'easy targets'. We know the submarines are essentially death traps with little effective range however, they are more than capable of sitting around off Canada's major cities/base on this coast and dumping torpedoes into any suspicious ships. The multitude of coastal artillery and forts (both already present and hastily setup) can do some serious damage here and unless the Germans continue to roll 20's, it's going to be a rough ride getting all the way through these defenses. Plus Rainbow wherever she lurks at this moment.
Go team Canada