Lieutenant Keyes, commander of the submarine flotilla, in the chapter entitled Canaries, says:
The Rainbow. A World War One on Canada's West Coast Timeline
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"Quite frankly, as I look at the boats in detail, I notice some of the fit and finish is really below the standards I am accustomed to on Royal Navy boats. I get the feeling that since the Yanks at the shipyard knew they were only building these boats for dagoes, they thought they could cut some corners.”
This is exactly the issue. The submarines were built for a foreign power to a quality that even they did not find particularly positive.
"An order for two submarines had originally been placed by Chile in 1911 with the Electric Boat Company of New Jersey. The order was subcontracted to Seattle Construction and Drydock Company for a total of $818,000. The Electric Boat Company then designed and built a boat in a way that could be taken apart and shipped across country to Seattle to be assembled. After sea trials, the submarines now named Iquique and Antofogasta were refused by the Chilean officials as they had failed to achieve the radius of action demanded in the contract. At the same time, Chile had allowed its progress payments to fall in arrears. This led the Seattle shipbuilding company to find ways to get rid of the submarines."
Desperate measures, etc.
This is exactly the issue. The submarines were built for a foreign power to a quality that even they did not find particularly positive.
"An order for two submarines had originally been placed by Chile in 1911 with the Electric Boat Company of New Jersey. The order was subcontracted to Seattle Construction and Drydock Company for a total of $818,000. The Electric Boat Company then designed and built a boat in a way that could be taken apart and shipped across country to Seattle to be assembled. After sea trials, the submarines now named Iquique and Antofogasta were refused by the Chilean officials as they had failed to achieve the radius of action demanded in the contract. At the same time, Chile had allowed its progress payments to fall in arrears. This led the Seattle shipbuilding company to find ways to get rid of the submarines."
Desperate measures, etc.
Something to lose
Aug 18 0830 hours. SMS Nürnberg. Captain’s cabin.
Von Schönberg had run out of his supply of schnapps, so he brought out a bottle of the Canadian whiskey they had captured from the SS Brindle, seemingly a lifetime ago. Nürnberg’s engines vibrated beneath the deck.
“I can’t get the face of that sailor out of my head,” said Von Spee. “He was nineteen years old.”
Von Schönberg placed two glasses on his desk, poured a stiff shot each, and the two men downed them without a word.
“What mistakes did we make,” Von Schönberg asked.
“Sir?”
“The battle with that Russian in Prince Rupert harbour was a surprise, and unavoidable. But we made mistakes just now. What were they? If that sailor’s death is going to mean anything, we have to learn from it.”
“We were too slow. Our attack lost its focus,” said Von Spee.
“Yes,” said Von Schönberg. “Go on.” He poured another shot each.
“We did not demonstrate overwhelming force,” said Von Spee. “Our landing party looked small and weak.” The two men threw back their shots. “And we became divided.”
“Good.”
“We became overconfident,” declared Von Spee, as if he was summing up his analysis.
“Yes, that is a part of it.” said Von Schönberg. “We have had things go very well for us, and become accustomed to this state of things. As if it is the natural order. But I think there is more.”
“Sir?” Von Spee thought for a moment. “There is a difference between boarding a prize ship and landing on shore. On a ship the choice is clear. There is only the sea. But on land one can run away and hide. And perhaps resist”
“That is also true. But still there is more.” Von Spee did not respond. “What did we do at Anyox?” prodded Von Schönberg, “We were there for most of a day, the residents let us take our fill of coal, food, gold, and explosives. Not one took a shot at us.”
“We told them we were only there for a short time, with limited objectives,” said Von Spee. “We had one of their own speak for us, to soothe their fears.”
“Yes,” concluded Von Schönberg. “We left them hope. And thus, they had something to lose. We did not corner them like wild animals. We demonstrated overwhelming force, but also the promise of mercy if they were compliant. We did neither at Swanson Bay this morning.”
https://www.ebay.com/itm/264473582472
Von Schönberg had run out of his supply of schnapps, so he brought out a bottle of the Canadian whiskey they had captured from the SS Brindle, seemingly a lifetime ago. Nürnberg’s engines vibrated beneath the deck.
“I can’t get the face of that sailor out of my head,” said Von Spee. “He was nineteen years old.”
Von Schönberg placed two glasses on his desk, poured a stiff shot each, and the two men downed them without a word.
“What mistakes did we make,” Von Schönberg asked.
“Sir?”
“The battle with that Russian in Prince Rupert harbour was a surprise, and unavoidable. But we made mistakes just now. What were they? If that sailor’s death is going to mean anything, we have to learn from it.”
“We were too slow. Our attack lost its focus,” said Von Spee.
“Yes,” said Von Schönberg. “Go on.” He poured another shot each.
“We did not demonstrate overwhelming force,” said Von Spee. “Our landing party looked small and weak.” The two men threw back their shots. “And we became divided.”
“Good.”
“We became overconfident,” declared Von Spee, as if he was summing up his analysis.
“Yes, that is a part of it.” said Von Schönberg. “We have had things go very well for us, and become accustomed to this state of things. As if it is the natural order. But I think there is more.”
“Sir?” Von Spee thought for a moment. “There is a difference between boarding a prize ship and landing on shore. On a ship the choice is clear. There is only the sea. But on land one can run away and hide. And perhaps resist”
“That is also true. But still there is more.” Von Spee did not respond. “What did we do at Anyox?” prodded Von Schönberg, “We were there for most of a day, the residents let us take our fill of coal, food, gold, and explosives. Not one took a shot at us.”
“We told them we were only there for a short time, with limited objectives,” said Von Spee. “We had one of their own speak for us, to soothe their fears.”
“Yes,” concluded Von Schönberg. “We left them hope. And thus, they had something to lose. We did not corner them like wild animals. We demonstrated overwhelming force, but also the promise of mercy if they were compliant. We did neither at Swanson Bay this morning.”
https://www.ebay.com/itm/264473582472
Always a good thing to go back and ask where thing went wrong and why. Good update.
P.S. Forgot the threadmark.
P.S. Forgot the threadmark.
I really like how you add in supplementary info at the end of your chapters; it's always interesting and informative.
Photo of SMS Nürnberg crew. Location and date unknown. They are wearing tropical uniforms. In the story they would be wearing blue ones. In the centre among the officers I expect would be the real life Karl Von Schönberg and the real life Otto Von Spee. All the other named German sailors in my story are made up. Click to zoom. At this point in the story 8 of these men would be dead and 3 would be resting in Prince Rupert hospital.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/SMS_Nürnberg_Besatzung.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/SMS_Nürnberg_Besatzung.jpg
Every preparation
Aug 18, 1000 hours. Esquimalt Naval Dockyard.
CRUISER NURNBERG REPORTED PRINCE RUPERT
Captain Trousdale, RNO, hearing that the Premier was at the Naval Dockyard, summoned him, Lieutenant Keyes, and Commander Hose of the Rainbow to his office. He held a fist full of telegraph transcripts.
“Thank you for coming, gentlemen. Our intelligence on the ships of the Kaiser’s East Asiatic Squadron has been rubbish. Not that we have no reports.” He waved the telegraph messages for emphasis. “On the contrary, we have nothing but reports. The ships are all over the God’s green acre. So much of it is chaff that we might as well know nothing. I suspect some of these reports are straight German counter-intelligence operations. Like this one:”
CRUISER NURNBERG REPORTED COALING PAGO PAGO AMERICAN SAMOA STOP
“Apia in German Samoa is a day’s steaming away. It makes no sense. But then there is this.”
CAPTAIN FRY OF 6TH REGIMENT REPORTS CRUISER NURNBERG AND PRIZES GTP SS PRINCE RUPERT CPR SS PRINCESS CHARLOTTE AND FISHERIES CGS GALIANO DEPARTED PRINCE RUPERT MIDNIGHT AUG 17/18 STOP CITY ATTACKED WITH MUCH DAMAGE MANY SHIPS SUNK IN HARBOUR STOP read Trousdale.
“That seems very specific,” said McBride. “Has it been validated?”
“This message was send from a train station on the Skeena River,” replied Trousdale. “By a Fisheries Protection Officer, we believe.”
“Can this not be confirmed?” asked Commander Hose.
“At present, Prince Rupert is not accessible by telegraph,” replied Trousdale, “just the stations on the rail line approaching the city. As well, the Digby Island wireless station is not active. And The Granby Company’s private wireless station at Anyox is not responding either. The Anyox station is powerful but depending on atmospherics it sometimes needs to relay via Digby. We do not know why all these communications are out. This is not unheard of, but in light of the other stories emerging from the area, it is indeed alarming. There was a report of a fire on the rail bridge, but we have no way to know what role that played, or if it was a cause or effect of the disruption.
“We rely on the Dominion Wireless Service for our long distance coastal communications. With Digby Island not answering there is a break in the chain. The wireless stations at Triangle Island, Dead Tree, and Ikeda, are calling repeatedly, but none of the ships in question have replied. In fact, calls to ‘All Ships’ to help locate them have received very few responses. The Princess Sophia is due to arrive in Prince Rupert at any time, with a company of the 6th Regiment on board, and she should be able to provide us with a report. But at the moment… we are unable to contact even her.”
“Commander, how long would it take for the Rainbow to put to sea?” asked Trousdale.
“We could be at sea in an hour,” said Hose.
“I think it would be prudent for the Rainbow to head to Prince Rupert and investigate,” said Trousdale.
“I concur,” said McBride.
“I realize this could mean sending your ship into combat, Commander,” said Trousdale.
“We have made every preparation for that eventuality,” said Hose. “The Rainbow and her crew are as ready as we will ever be.”
“How long would it take you to reach Prince Rupert, Commander?” asked McBride.
“Through the Inside Passage,” answered Hose, “at 15 knots, 30 hours. That is our best sustained speed. I do not want to throw a piston.”
“I am aware that by sending our only warship away north, we will be leaving the South Coast defenceless,” said Trousdale. “We will have to rely on the fortifications, and the submarines. Lieutenant Keyes?”
“The number one boat is prepared,” said Keyes. “It is ready to patrol the Juan de Fuca Straight. We would benefit from more preparation time, but we have always presumed that the submarines will be called for at any moment. Number two boat is in the Graving Dock, but we can redouble those efforts. We will have to load war-shot torpedoes. That will put our torpedo practice on hold. But sortieing for war is itself excellent training.
“You may get a more realistic exercise than you want, Lieutenant,” said Trousdale. This message we receive frequently from various sources, including our Counsel in San Francisco:” CRUISER LEIPZIG REPORTED COALING AT SAN FRANCISCO, he read. “The situation up north may be obscure, but the Leipzig is certainly less than two days away to the south, and she is preparing to sail.”
“And where is the nearest Royal Navy ship?” asked McBride.
Trousdale rifled through his pile of paper, and read HMS NEWCASTLE COALING IN YOKOHAMA EXPECTED TO DEPART MIDNIGHT “That puts her about ten to twelve days away.”
“Oh my,” said McBride. “We are on our own for a very long time. What else can we do to at this late date to bolster the local defences?”
“Well, the Fisheries Protection Service is a gendarmerie that has vessels in place all up and down the coast,” said Trousdale. “We should put them to their best use. The GGS Malaspina is already acting as Esquimalt’s inspection vessel. The GGS Galiano is in Prince Rupert… but in light of the received telegraph message, we might say her status is unknown.
“The GCS Estevan is currently travelling up the west coast of Vancouver Island delivering militia guards to the more isolated lighthouses and wireless stations. I took the liberty before she left of loading a number of 3 pounder Hotchkiss guns and ammunition from naval stores, and a number of Colt machineguns from the militia. These will be installed on the Fisheries Protection vessels at their various stations up the coast, with naval reserve or militia crew. Guns for steamers, machine guns for launches. It might not be much, but if there are raiders on the coast, it might limit some of their freedom to operate with impunity.”
“Three pounders,” said Hose. “The Rainbow herself is terribly outclassed by either Nürnberg or Leipzig.”
“Of course those light guns will do nothing to a cruiser,” said Trousdale, “I am talking about countering detached landing parties or prize ships. The difference between no armament and some armament is not insignificant. In fact, there are Fisheries Protection vessels at stations along the Inside Passage route that Rainbow will be passing by. I would like to have some light guns and ammunition brought out to your ship, if that is acceptable to you Commander.”
“As long as we are not slowed down from our primary mission,” said Hose.
“The Fisheries vessels can be ordered to meet you on the way,” offered Trousdale, “or you can land the ordinance at a depot close by. There are launches at Rivers Inlet, Bella Coola, and three in the general area of Prince Rupert. The CGS Falcon and a launch are at Masset, but the Estevan will be going there anyway, eventually. The CGS Alcedo is in Nanaimo, and the CGS Newington is based in Port Hardy. So two 3 pounders and a half dozen machine guns ought to do it.”
“As well, the CGS Restless is in harbour in Victoria,” Trousdale continued. “I have ordered her to be fitted with a 6 pounder gun at the Dockyard. That should be accomplished by this afternoon.”
“The Restless is a tug capable of 9 knots,” said Hose. “The Falcon, Alcedo and Newington are much the same, all tugs or trawlers. You are enlisting a fleet of targets.”
“They each have a wireless,” said Trousdale. “That will be their greatest weapon, should they see a German raider.”
“What else can we do right now to add to our capabilities?” asked Premier McBride. “Anyone? I know the sloops are obsolescent, but at least they are warships with genuine naval guns.”
“The crews are on trains eastbound,” said Trousdale. “I expect they are in Halifax already.”
“I am certain between the Naval Reserve and the Militia 5th regiment gunners we could man the ships and their guns,” offered Hose. “But I don’t expect they could be handled in battle.” Trousdale and Keyes nodded in agreement. “They might, however, be useful as floating batteries.”
“Vancouver harbour has two batteries defending it now,” said Trousdale. “But Victoria harbour proper is only covered by Fort McAuley with one battery of 6 inch disappearing guns. Those mounts would have a hard time tracking a fast vessel close inshore. The quick firing anti-torpedo boat batteries are all emplaced to defend the approaches to Esquimalt. A pair of quick firing guns at the Ogden Point breakwater would prevent a ship forcing the harbour. That would be simple. We could tow one of the sloops over if need be.”
“I would choose Nanaimo to place the other sloop,” said McBride. “It is the province’s next most important port. Other than Prince Rupert.”
“Alright, I will put things in motion to make that happen,” said Trousdale. ‘Commander, I think it is time you should be getting up steam on the Rainbow.”
“Yes, sir!” responded Commander Hose, with the demeanor of a naval officer facing battle, and he strode from the Dockyard commander’s office.
“It is very important,” said McBride, “that none of this business up north gets leaked to the press, for now.”
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_3pounder_H_mk1.php
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Colt–Browning_machine_gun
http://www.nauticapedia.ca/Gallery/Restless.php
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Newington
http://www.nauticapedia.ca/dbase/Query/Shiplist5.php?id=38958
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dr_gorham/6168938771/in/photostream/
CRUISER NURNBERG REPORTED PRINCE RUPERT
Captain Trousdale, RNO, hearing that the Premier was at the Naval Dockyard, summoned him, Lieutenant Keyes, and Commander Hose of the Rainbow to his office. He held a fist full of telegraph transcripts.
“Thank you for coming, gentlemen. Our intelligence on the ships of the Kaiser’s East Asiatic Squadron has been rubbish. Not that we have no reports.” He waved the telegraph messages for emphasis. “On the contrary, we have nothing but reports. The ships are all over the God’s green acre. So much of it is chaff that we might as well know nothing. I suspect some of these reports are straight German counter-intelligence operations. Like this one:”
CRUISER NURNBERG REPORTED COALING PAGO PAGO AMERICAN SAMOA STOP
“Apia in German Samoa is a day’s steaming away. It makes no sense. But then there is this.”
CAPTAIN FRY OF 6TH REGIMENT REPORTS CRUISER NURNBERG AND PRIZES GTP SS PRINCE RUPERT CPR SS PRINCESS CHARLOTTE AND FISHERIES CGS GALIANO DEPARTED PRINCE RUPERT MIDNIGHT AUG 17/18 STOP CITY ATTACKED WITH MUCH DAMAGE MANY SHIPS SUNK IN HARBOUR STOP read Trousdale.
“That seems very specific,” said McBride. “Has it been validated?”
“This message was send from a train station on the Skeena River,” replied Trousdale. “By a Fisheries Protection Officer, we believe.”
“Can this not be confirmed?” asked Commander Hose.
“At present, Prince Rupert is not accessible by telegraph,” replied Trousdale, “just the stations on the rail line approaching the city. As well, the Digby Island wireless station is not active. And The Granby Company’s private wireless station at Anyox is not responding either. The Anyox station is powerful but depending on atmospherics it sometimes needs to relay via Digby. We do not know why all these communications are out. This is not unheard of, but in light of the other stories emerging from the area, it is indeed alarming. There was a report of a fire on the rail bridge, but we have no way to know what role that played, or if it was a cause or effect of the disruption.
“We rely on the Dominion Wireless Service for our long distance coastal communications. With Digby Island not answering there is a break in the chain. The wireless stations at Triangle Island, Dead Tree, and Ikeda, are calling repeatedly, but none of the ships in question have replied. In fact, calls to ‘All Ships’ to help locate them have received very few responses. The Princess Sophia is due to arrive in Prince Rupert at any time, with a company of the 6th Regiment on board, and she should be able to provide us with a report. But at the moment… we are unable to contact even her.”
“Commander, how long would it take for the Rainbow to put to sea?” asked Trousdale.
“We could be at sea in an hour,” said Hose.
“I think it would be prudent for the Rainbow to head to Prince Rupert and investigate,” said Trousdale.
“I concur,” said McBride.
“I realize this could mean sending your ship into combat, Commander,” said Trousdale.
“We have made every preparation for that eventuality,” said Hose. “The Rainbow and her crew are as ready as we will ever be.”
“How long would it take you to reach Prince Rupert, Commander?” asked McBride.
“Through the Inside Passage,” answered Hose, “at 15 knots, 30 hours. That is our best sustained speed. I do not want to throw a piston.”
“I am aware that by sending our only warship away north, we will be leaving the South Coast defenceless,” said Trousdale. “We will have to rely on the fortifications, and the submarines. Lieutenant Keyes?”
“The number one boat is prepared,” said Keyes. “It is ready to patrol the Juan de Fuca Straight. We would benefit from more preparation time, but we have always presumed that the submarines will be called for at any moment. Number two boat is in the Graving Dock, but we can redouble those efforts. We will have to load war-shot torpedoes. That will put our torpedo practice on hold. But sortieing for war is itself excellent training.
“You may get a more realistic exercise than you want, Lieutenant,” said Trousdale. This message we receive frequently from various sources, including our Counsel in San Francisco:” CRUISER LEIPZIG REPORTED COALING AT SAN FRANCISCO, he read. “The situation up north may be obscure, but the Leipzig is certainly less than two days away to the south, and she is preparing to sail.”
“And where is the nearest Royal Navy ship?” asked McBride.
Trousdale rifled through his pile of paper, and read HMS NEWCASTLE COALING IN YOKOHAMA EXPECTED TO DEPART MIDNIGHT “That puts her about ten to twelve days away.”
“Oh my,” said McBride. “We are on our own for a very long time. What else can we do to at this late date to bolster the local defences?”
“Well, the Fisheries Protection Service is a gendarmerie that has vessels in place all up and down the coast,” said Trousdale. “We should put them to their best use. The GGS Malaspina is already acting as Esquimalt’s inspection vessel. The GGS Galiano is in Prince Rupert… but in light of the received telegraph message, we might say her status is unknown.
“The GCS Estevan is currently travelling up the west coast of Vancouver Island delivering militia guards to the more isolated lighthouses and wireless stations. I took the liberty before she left of loading a number of 3 pounder Hotchkiss guns and ammunition from naval stores, and a number of Colt machineguns from the militia. These will be installed on the Fisheries Protection vessels at their various stations up the coast, with naval reserve or militia crew. Guns for steamers, machine guns for launches. It might not be much, but if there are raiders on the coast, it might limit some of their freedom to operate with impunity.”
“Three pounders,” said Hose. “The Rainbow herself is terribly outclassed by either Nürnberg or Leipzig.”
“Of course those light guns will do nothing to a cruiser,” said Trousdale, “I am talking about countering detached landing parties or prize ships. The difference between no armament and some armament is not insignificant. In fact, there are Fisheries Protection vessels at stations along the Inside Passage route that Rainbow will be passing by. I would like to have some light guns and ammunition brought out to your ship, if that is acceptable to you Commander.”
“As long as we are not slowed down from our primary mission,” said Hose.
“The Fisheries vessels can be ordered to meet you on the way,” offered Trousdale, “or you can land the ordinance at a depot close by. There are launches at Rivers Inlet, Bella Coola, and three in the general area of Prince Rupert. The CGS Falcon and a launch are at Masset, but the Estevan will be going there anyway, eventually. The CGS Alcedo is in Nanaimo, and the CGS Newington is based in Port Hardy. So two 3 pounders and a half dozen machine guns ought to do it.”
“As well, the CGS Restless is in harbour in Victoria,” Trousdale continued. “I have ordered her to be fitted with a 6 pounder gun at the Dockyard. That should be accomplished by this afternoon.”
“The Restless is a tug capable of 9 knots,” said Hose. “The Falcon, Alcedo and Newington are much the same, all tugs or trawlers. You are enlisting a fleet of targets.”
“They each have a wireless,” said Trousdale. “That will be their greatest weapon, should they see a German raider.”
“What else can we do right now to add to our capabilities?” asked Premier McBride. “Anyone? I know the sloops are obsolescent, but at least they are warships with genuine naval guns.”
“The crews are on trains eastbound,” said Trousdale. “I expect they are in Halifax already.”
“I am certain between the Naval Reserve and the Militia 5th regiment gunners we could man the ships and their guns,” offered Hose. “But I don’t expect they could be handled in battle.” Trousdale and Keyes nodded in agreement. “They might, however, be useful as floating batteries.”
“Vancouver harbour has two batteries defending it now,” said Trousdale. “But Victoria harbour proper is only covered by Fort McAuley with one battery of 6 inch disappearing guns. Those mounts would have a hard time tracking a fast vessel close inshore. The quick firing anti-torpedo boat batteries are all emplaced to defend the approaches to Esquimalt. A pair of quick firing guns at the Ogden Point breakwater would prevent a ship forcing the harbour. That would be simple. We could tow one of the sloops over if need be.”
“I would choose Nanaimo to place the other sloop,” said McBride. “It is the province’s next most important port. Other than Prince Rupert.”
“Alright, I will put things in motion to make that happen,” said Trousdale. ‘Commander, I think it is time you should be getting up steam on the Rainbow.”
“Yes, sir!” responded Commander Hose, with the demeanor of a naval officer facing battle, and he strode from the Dockyard commander’s office.
“It is very important,” said McBride, “that none of this business up north gets leaked to the press, for now.”
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_3pounder_H_mk1.php
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Colt–Browning_machine_gun
http://www.nauticapedia.ca/Gallery/Restless.php
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Newington
http://www.nauticapedia.ca/dbase/Query/Shiplist5.php?id=38958
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dr_gorham/6168938771/in/photostream/
Last edited:
In Our Timeline HMCS Rainbow was sent to Prince Rupert on August 19, 1914 to investigate a very credible report of a three funnelled cruiser coaling from an American freighter. Commander Hose found the reports convincing when he interviewed folks on the scene. At that time OLT the Leipzig was sailing south from San Francisco, and the Nürnberg was in the western Pacific.
Driftless
Donor
This could become.... chaotic. The Canadians' have enough information to act with a combination of reason and desperation (the RN is a week plus away and the Germans are in their front parlor).
If a shootout occurs in the inside passage, with limited operating space, might the wifty submarine play a useful part? Rainbow's outclassed, but the Nurnberg can't afford to get into too much of a scrap, with no repair facilities in the hemisphere.
If a shootout occurs in the inside passage, with limited operating space, might the wifty submarine play a useful part? Rainbow's outclassed, but the Nurnberg can't afford to get into too much of a scrap, with no repair facilities in the hemisphere.
Hopefully, if Rainbow meet her destiny in the channel, Nurnberg's range and speed advantage will not play a big part in the issue of the battle.
Driftless
Donor
Lots of artillery barrels available, but mostly on the smaller size; so the most likely "killer" weapon would be torpedos? All of the ships, including Nurnberg and Rainbow would be suspect for being able to survive a midships torpedo hit. The fisheries vessels and coastal steamers might well get shot up badly, but would that be enough to sink them, unless they become a focal point?