The Brandon boys would probably be of better standing, though being related through marriage hasn't stopped double marriages before...
The Queen is Dead!: Katherine of Aragon dies in 1518
- Thread starter FalconHonour
- Start date
True, but a Brandon boy for Pippa. would make both Percy girls Duchesses, which is not to be sniffed at.
Plus the irony of marrying Anne’s daughter to Mary and Brandon’s son... And an half-Boleyn girl marrying an half-Tudor boy...
This is a great idea...
I have to admit, I'm not one of the people who is super familiar with the dynastic intrigues of the time. To me, the real impact of this is averting the creation of the Anglican Church - and, it would seem, England holding on to Normandy for an extended time. There's also a good chance that the union with Scotland won't happen.
Now, I can see a few possibilities for England's religious future:
1. England remains Catholic (albeit not without some level of religious dissension). This would likely make Catholicism the overwhelmingly dominant branch of Christianity in the world, dominating all of the Americas, much of Africa, and probably Oceania, as the only major Protestant colonial power would be the Netherlands. For that matter, England might support the Spanish in the Low Countries, meaning that they hold on there (or at least we get a Catholic Netherlands). We could also see a much more pleasant relationship with Ireland, possibly granting the Irish clan chiefs seats in the House of Lords.
2. A future English king goes Protestant. If the motivation to break with Rome is religious in nature, that means an alternate Church of England that is probably officially Lutheran (or maybe Calvinist). This would probably lead to religious warfare in England, but would also probably tie England closer to Scandinavia and northern Germany, including the higher likelihood of English intervention in the alternate Thirty Years' War (because there will almost certainly be a giant clusterfuck/horror show with religious overtones in Germany at some point).
3. English Protestant rebels overthrow the monarchy. IOTL, much of England became Calvinist despite the official religion being Anglicanism, so the same process could happen ITTL. It could lead to a republic as with the OTL English Civil War, or perhaps the rebels invite in a foreign king. This could even be an extension of the *Thirty Years' War.
Now, I can see a few possibilities for England's religious future:
1. England remains Catholic (albeit not without some level of religious dissension). This would likely make Catholicism the overwhelmingly dominant branch of Christianity in the world, dominating all of the Americas, much of Africa, and probably Oceania, as the only major Protestant colonial power would be the Netherlands. For that matter, England might support the Spanish in the Low Countries, meaning that they hold on there (or at least we get a Catholic Netherlands). We could also see a much more pleasant relationship with Ireland, possibly granting the Irish clan chiefs seats in the House of Lords.
2. A future English king goes Protestant. If the motivation to break with Rome is religious in nature, that means an alternate Church of England that is probably officially Lutheran (or maybe Calvinist). This would probably lead to religious warfare in England, but would also probably tie England closer to Scandinavia and northern Germany, including the higher likelihood of English intervention in the alternate Thirty Years' War (because there will almost certainly be a giant clusterfuck/horror show with religious overtones in Germany at some point).
3. English Protestant rebels overthrow the monarchy. IOTL, much of England became Calvinist despite the official religion being Anglicanism, so the same process could happen ITTL. It could lead to a republic as with the OTL English Civil War, or perhaps the rebels invite in a foreign king. This could even be an extension of the *Thirty Years' War.
I will go into more details on religion in an epilogue, but in a nutshell: as far as I have worked out - Normandy goes Calvinist next generation. There is no official Church of England, but the monarchy goes Protestant on the mainland towards the end of the century. There is no Union with Scotland, although Ireland becomes a Kingdom within the Empire in the OTL Victorian era... And the Tudors are still on the throne in 2020, though who the monarch is I haven't worked out.
Section CLXXVIII - June 1531
“Though he was to reign for another twenty years, in many ways the summer of 1531 was the high point of Henry’s reign. Not only had Conn O’Neill and Hugh O’Donnell, two of the ringleaders of the ‘Christmas Rising’ of 1528 come before him and submitted to him in exchange for the titles of Earl of Tyrone and Earl of Tyrconnell, but it was the last one the whole Tudor family spent together before the children began to fly the nest; fifteen-year-old Maria to Paris to get to know her new country before she married the Dauphin in 1533, ten-year-old Lionel to Ludlow to head the Council of the Welsh Marches, at least in name, and seven-year-old Richard to Rouen, to be raised as the Duke of Normandy under the careful tutelage of Lord Hastings and Sir Edward Seymour. Knowing things would never be the same again, Henry, in his typical flamboyant style, turned the summer progress into something longer and grander than it had ever been before. He and Queen Marie set out from Westminster on Easter Monday, stopping at Eltham to collect the children, who had been spending Easter together. From there, the whole family went to Raglan to spend some time with Lord and Lady Pembroke, and then to Chester to watch Lionel swear allegiance to his father and be officially invested as Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester, which he was on May 1st. From there, they turned north, through Cheshire and Lancashire, stopping to visit the Marquis and Marchioness of Lancaster at Sizergh, before crossing the Pennines to York, where they met the young King James V of Scotland. James played an honoured part in Henry’s birthday celebrations, even managing to unseat the Earl of Pembroke in a joust, before pledging to take Lady Caitlin as his wife in the summer of 1538 in a glittering spectacle of a ceremony in York Minister in early July.
Then, honour satisfied on both sides, the Tudors came south along the east coast, before turning inland through Peterborough, Cambridge and Canterbury, where Queen Marie, the new Queen of Scotland, Princess Maria, and Lady Jacquetta all left offerings at the shrine of St Thomas Becket. Presumably, they were praying for Maria and Dickon’s safe journey across the Channel, for by early September, the two had embarked from Dover, marking the end of a truly sumptuous progress…”
Caitlin rode her dapple-grey pony between Mama and Papa, head held high. She was trying not to show how scared she was. After all, she was going to meet her future husband in York. She was going to be the Queen of Scots, just like her aunt Margaret. She had to act like a Queen, not like a scared little baby. Besides, she had to be the strong one. For Jackie, if not for herself. Maria was leaving for France at the end of the summer and Jackie was already so upset at the very thought. Jackie loved Maria best of all their brothers and sisters, so the prospect of her leaving was really hard for her. Caitlin had to be extra nice to Jackie to make her feel better, especially given her own betrothal would remind Jackie of how things would change after the summer. She couldn’t show Jackie how scared she was, either.
“All right, angel?”
Papa looked over at her and she nodded, “Yes, Papa.”
“Good girl. You’re so brave, you know that? A true Princess.”
He leaned over from his saddle and squeezed her shoulder. She forced her lips up into a smile.
“Thank you, Papa.”
When he let her go, however, she dropped back to ride alongside her older brother Lionel. He smiled at her.
“You’ll be fine, Caitlin. You’re doing really well as it is.”
“Thank you,” she whispered. And it did mean a lot to hear. Lionel didn’t often spend time with her. He was usually at Tickhill with Hal and the rest of his household, and even when he wasn't, he tended to focus his attention on Hal and Maria, while she was closer to Dickon. To hear Lionel praising her for once was a pleasant surprise. They rode along in silence for a while, before she, emboldened by the sudden trust that seemed to be blossoming between them, blurted, “He just sounds so old! What if he thinks I’m just a silly little girl?”
“You are a silly little girl,” Lionel retorted with brotherly candour. At the look on her face, however, he softened, “You’ll grow up. You’ll grow up into a woman as beautiful as Mama and King James will have no choice but to fall in love with you.”
“Do you think so?”
“If he doesn’t, I’ll simply have to declare war on Scotland, won’t I?”
Caitlin laughed at her older brother’s flippancy and he chuckled with her.
“That’s better. Now, tell you what. I bet you half an angel you can’t beat me to Aunt Anne’s.”
“Lionel! We can’t!”
She might have protested, but when her older brother spurred his horse away from her, shouting 'Race you!' over his shoulder, she couldn’t resist. She gave her pony its head and fled after him, hurtling lengths ahead of the procession.
“Papa’s going to be so angry! We’re not behaving properly!” She panted.
“Nonsense!” Lionel shouted gleefully, “He knows as well as anyone we have to please the people. And they love it. Listen!”
And indeed, when Caitlin cocked her head to listen, she heard them roaring her name and Lionel’s.
“God Bless the Lion Prince! England’s young lion!”
“God Save the Young Lion!”
“Princess Caitlin!”
“The Angel Princess!”
“The Thornless Rose!”
“The Lion and the Rose!”
“The Lion and the Rose!”
Breathless, Caitlin urged her pony on through the cheering crowd, only dimly aware of the even more raucous shouts building behind her, where her parents were passing.
“Bluff King Hal! Huzzah for Bluff King Hal!
“Queen Marie! God Bless Good Queen Marie!”
“The Golden Queen!”
“The Golden Queen and the Dragon King!”
“Beatrix! Beatrix!”
“And then Lionel and I raced each other here and he let me win, so he owes me half an angel, and the crowd were cheering us and they were shouting for Mama and Papa too and....”
Now safe and sound in the arms of her favourite aunt, Caitlin was much happier and back to her usual bubbly self.
Anne laughed, “Slow down, ma miel, catch your breath. You can tell me all about it later, when you’ve washed up and changed.”
“Yes, Aunt Anne,” Caitlin murmured, catching Maggie’s eye over her aunt’s shoulder and quickly letting her older cousin take charge of her and begin to pull her away.
However, on the threshold of Sizergh Castle, she turned, pert little nose scrunched in confusion.
“The common people called Mama something odd.”
Aunt Anne turned, smiling down at her, “What was it, ma miel?”
“They shouted ‘Beatrix!’ as Mama went past. Why would they shout that? It’s not her name.”
Papa, who had just dismounted and was helping Mama off her horse, overheard her question.
“You know your Latin, Caitlin. You tell me.”
“But...it means she who makes happy. I know that. But why would they shout it for Mama?”
“Because that’s who she is,” Papa explained, kissing Mama as she slid down into his arms, “She made me happy after Maria’s mother died and she made me happy by bringing me all of you. She’s also made England happy by making her safe by birthing your brothers. So of course they’re going to shout ‘Beatrix’ for Mama. No name suits her better. She truly is my Beatrix.”
“And mine,” Caitlin replied, running over to slip her hand into Mama’s, not caring that it broke every rule Lady Salisbury and Lady Willoughby had ever drilled into her. In that instant, with her family gathered around her, she could almost forget the future. She could almost forget that, within weeks, she would be promised to be the Queen of Scots and addressed as such.
In that moment, she was no one but her father’s little angel.
She was no one but Caitlin and all was right with the world.
Then, honour satisfied on both sides, the Tudors came south along the east coast, before turning inland through Peterborough, Cambridge and Canterbury, where Queen Marie, the new Queen of Scotland, Princess Maria, and Lady Jacquetta all left offerings at the shrine of St Thomas Becket. Presumably, they were praying for Maria and Dickon’s safe journey across the Channel, for by early September, the two had embarked from Dover, marking the end of a truly sumptuous progress…”
_______ Amelia Morris, “England’s Second Conqueror: A Life of King Henry VIII, 1491-1551
Lancashire, June 1531
Caitlin rode her dapple-grey pony between Mama and Papa, head held high. She was trying not to show how scared she was. After all, she was going to meet her future husband in York. She was going to be the Queen of Scots, just like her aunt Margaret. She had to act like a Queen, not like a scared little baby. Besides, she had to be the strong one. For Jackie, if not for herself. Maria was leaving for France at the end of the summer and Jackie was already so upset at the very thought. Jackie loved Maria best of all their brothers and sisters, so the prospect of her leaving was really hard for her. Caitlin had to be extra nice to Jackie to make her feel better, especially given her own betrothal would remind Jackie of how things would change after the summer. She couldn’t show Jackie how scared she was, either.
“All right, angel?”
Papa looked over at her and she nodded, “Yes, Papa.”
“Good girl. You’re so brave, you know that? A true Princess.”
He leaned over from his saddle and squeezed her shoulder. She forced her lips up into a smile.
“Thank you, Papa.”
When he let her go, however, she dropped back to ride alongside her older brother Lionel. He smiled at her.
“You’ll be fine, Caitlin. You’re doing really well as it is.”
“Thank you,” she whispered. And it did mean a lot to hear. Lionel didn’t often spend time with her. He was usually at Tickhill with Hal and the rest of his household, and even when he wasn't, he tended to focus his attention on Hal and Maria, while she was closer to Dickon. To hear Lionel praising her for once was a pleasant surprise. They rode along in silence for a while, before she, emboldened by the sudden trust that seemed to be blossoming between them, blurted, “He just sounds so old! What if he thinks I’m just a silly little girl?”
“You are a silly little girl,” Lionel retorted with brotherly candour. At the look on her face, however, he softened, “You’ll grow up. You’ll grow up into a woman as beautiful as Mama and King James will have no choice but to fall in love with you.”
“Do you think so?”
“If he doesn’t, I’ll simply have to declare war on Scotland, won’t I?”
Caitlin laughed at her older brother’s flippancy and he chuckled with her.
“That’s better. Now, tell you what. I bet you half an angel you can’t beat me to Aunt Anne’s.”
“Lionel! We can’t!”
She might have protested, but when her older brother spurred his horse away from her, shouting 'Race you!' over his shoulder, she couldn’t resist. She gave her pony its head and fled after him, hurtling lengths ahead of the procession.
“Papa’s going to be so angry! We’re not behaving properly!” She panted.
“Nonsense!” Lionel shouted gleefully, “He knows as well as anyone we have to please the people. And they love it. Listen!”
And indeed, when Caitlin cocked her head to listen, she heard them roaring her name and Lionel’s.
“God Bless the Lion Prince! England’s young lion!”
“God Save the Young Lion!”
“Princess Caitlin!”
“The Angel Princess!”
“The Thornless Rose!”
“The Lion and the Rose!”
“The Lion and the Rose!”
Breathless, Caitlin urged her pony on through the cheering crowd, only dimly aware of the even more raucous shouts building behind her, where her parents were passing.
“Bluff King Hal! Huzzah for Bluff King Hal!
“Queen Marie! God Bless Good Queen Marie!”
“The Golden Queen!”
“The Golden Queen and the Dragon King!”
“Beatrix! Beatrix!”
**** **** ****
“And then Lionel and I raced each other here and he let me win, so he owes me half an angel, and the crowd were cheering us and they were shouting for Mama and Papa too and....”
Now safe and sound in the arms of her favourite aunt, Caitlin was much happier and back to her usual bubbly self.
Anne laughed, “Slow down, ma miel, catch your breath. You can tell me all about it later, when you’ve washed up and changed.”
“Yes, Aunt Anne,” Caitlin murmured, catching Maggie’s eye over her aunt’s shoulder and quickly letting her older cousin take charge of her and begin to pull her away.
However, on the threshold of Sizergh Castle, she turned, pert little nose scrunched in confusion.
“The common people called Mama something odd.”
Aunt Anne turned, smiling down at her, “What was it, ma miel?”
“They shouted ‘Beatrix!’ as Mama went past. Why would they shout that? It’s not her name.”
Papa, who had just dismounted and was helping Mama off her horse, overheard her question.
“You know your Latin, Caitlin. You tell me.”
“But...it means she who makes happy. I know that. But why would they shout it for Mama?”
“Because that’s who she is,” Papa explained, kissing Mama as she slid down into his arms, “She made me happy after Maria’s mother died and she made me happy by bringing me all of you. She’s also made England happy by making her safe by birthing your brothers. So of course they’re going to shout ‘Beatrix’ for Mama. No name suits her better. She truly is my Beatrix.”
“And mine,” Caitlin replied, running over to slip her hand into Mama’s, not caring that it broke every rule Lady Salisbury and Lady Willoughby had ever drilled into her. In that instant, with her family gathered around her, she could almost forget the future. She could almost forget that, within weeks, she would be promised to be the Queen of Scots and addressed as such.
In that moment, she was no one but her father’s little angel.
She was no one but Caitlin and all was right with the world.
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Very sweet, I hope Maria and little Richard have a safe trip across the channel, after all, other English princes have met their end in its icy waters....
Nope, they're fine. Both of them live long - if not entirely happy - lives. Promise.
Oh, there will be, but I didn't think of investing Lionel in Wales until it was too late - I'd had him invested in his County Palatine instead. That being said, he's about to spend much of his life at Ludlow hereafter, and his children will grow up there, so that might soothe some ruffled feathers.
Well, Henry's going to war again, two of his children have very unhappy marriages, and by 1586, the Tudor dynasty hangs on the slender twin threads of two young boys' lives, so make of that what you will.
Nope, sorry. Normandy stays English for the long-term now. Henry's invested too much to lose it - and the Tudor empire is much like Henry II's ITTL, though I think they'll still take bits of the OTL British Empire where they can, though I don't think they'll go as far south as Australia this time around - it's more of a northern hemisphere empire ITTL than a Southern Hemisphere one. Somewhere in my head, the Tudors keep the thirteen American colonies, but don't go as far south. I haven't decided the details of where else they flex their muscles, though.
Aww so nice to see the relationship between Lionel and Caitlin. Hopefully they’re able to maintain friendship between England and Scotland.
Thanks! Well, I don't think there's any major conflict between their nations, but I don't see Scotland and England joining ITTL, certainly not as early as OTL, anyway. British power is much more southern-England and northern-France centred ITTL. I think, if Scotland joins with anyone ITTL, it could well be Denmark and Norway, but I'm not sure of any of that. As I said to Blue, I see the Tudor empire as being centred on England, Normandy and todays USA ITTL, but I haven't fleshed out anything, not even epilogues, past 1586. But I do know that the first of the dramas I have cast, 'Time of Grace', was broadcast in 2009 TTL to mark the 500th anniversary of Henry VIII's accession to the throne. I haven't picked an exact date for the second's airing yet...
You know Ludlow is in England not Wales right? He really needs to go to Caernarfon and reaffirm at least.
Yeah, I know Ludlow is in the Welsh Marches, not Wales proper, but it is the traditional seat of the English Princes of Wales -Edward IV, Edward V and Arthur Tudor were all raised there. Ludlow is also the seat of the Tudor Council of the Marches in Wales, so that's where Henry would send his son. I'm sure Lionel will make it to Wales proper eventually...
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