The Qing overthrown in the 19th Century

Dorozhand

Banned
- Hong Xiuquan is somehow either never born or is prevented from becoming important

- The Taiping rebellion (as a specific event/movement) does not occur, the Qing government can afford more aid to those affected by the Yellow River flooding, and are better able to suppress the much smaller unrest that does follow. Thus, the resentment against the Qing among the Chinese in general is at least somewhat more bottled between the 1820s and the Opium Wars

- After the Second Opium War (which is still lost, and in some ways even worse since the resistence of the Qing was greater and the Europeans imposed harsher peace terms, and the breaking of the Qing Army was more shocking and dramatic), a group of noble but impoverished Han Chinese in Shandong, versed in the Confucian Classics and the histories, and led by an older scholar named Zhao Jinshu (趙 金書) meet and determine that the Qing have lost the mandate of heaven, which is proven by the loss of the wars. They form a secret organization, disguised as a philosophical club, called the Lapis Lazuli Society, inspired by the White Lotus Society which was disbanded earlier, and resolve to drive out the Manchu and restore a Han Chinese Empire.

- The society spreads rapidly among Han noble families, and soon to the common people as well. The social forces that would have driven the Taiping and Nien rebellions, and would have eventually driven the self-strengthening movement, converge here, unified, behind the Lapis Society. Soon, the Qing authorities decide to arrest the main members when news leaks out of their possible intentions, but during their trial in the city of Jinan, the magistrate is overrun by an armed mob, who release Zhao and the other leaders and proceed to kill many of the Qing officials in the city. Han working for the Qing begin to defect.

- The mob declare Zhao their king. Zhao, following his Confucian principles, decrees that the army leave peasants unmolested. After an Imperial Army ruthlessly crushes disobedient peasants in the area, they flock to the rebel side. Soon other cities in Shandong revolt, and Han generals and officials defect.

- Zhao and defected Han generals organize and equip the mob into an army and drive Qing forces from Shandong in a succesful campaign. Zhao proclaims himself Jianhui (建輝) Emperor of the Great Yong (雍) Dynasty. The people cut off their queues and resume Ming-era customs.

- Zhao's rebellion is wildly popular among virtually all Chinese people, and it keeps defeating the Qing armies, who are badly weakened and demoralized in the immediate aftermath of the war.

- The British and French side with the Qing, and supply weapons and instructors. The Americans never take much interest.
The Russians, still reeling from the defeat in Crimea, and seeing an opportunity for gain in a Russian-friendly China, supply the rebels with weapons and instructors.

- The rebels gain the upper hand when the Qing army in Shanghai is defeated and the Yangtze River captured, and Sengge Rinchen is captured and killed in the north by a joint Yong-Russian force. The rebel army enters Beijing in 1863, the emperor and court flee to Qiqihar and remaining Qing resistence collapses.

- The Qing, now reduced to their original homeland, offer peace to the Yong. Zhao accepts, on the condition that the Qing renounce the imperial title and become Yong vassals, and open their borders to Russia.

- The Yong Dynasty now rules all of China from the capital at Jinan, renamed Mujing. (睦京)
 
Last edited:
- Hong Xiuquan is somehow either never born or is prevented from becoming important

- The Taiping rebellion (as a specific event/movement) does not occur, the Qing government can afford more aid to those affected by the Yellow River flooding, and are better able to suppress the much smaller unrest that does follow. Thus, the resentment against the Qing among the Chinese in general is at least somewhat more bottled between the 1820s and the Opium Wars

- After the Second Opium War (which is still lost, and in some ways even worse since the resistence of the Qing was greater and the Europeans imposed harsher peace terms, and the breaking of the Qing Army was more shocking and dramatic), a group of noble but impoverished Han Chinese in Shandong, versed in the Confucian Classics and the histories, and led by an older scholar named Zhao Jinshu meet and determine that the Qing have lost the mandate of heaven, which is proven by the loss of the wars. They form a secret organization, disguised as a philosophical club, called the Lapis Lazuli Society, inspired by the White Lotus Society which was disbanded earlier, and resolve to drive out the Manchu and restore a Han Chinese Empire.

- The society soon spreads rapidly among Han noble families, and soon to the common people as well. The social forces that would have driven the Taiping and Nien rebellions, and would have eventually driven the self-strengthening movement, converge here, unified, behind the Lapis Society. Soon, the Qing authorities decide to arrest the main memebers when news leaks out, but during their trial in the city of Jinan, the magistrate is overrun by an armed mob, who release Zhao and the other leaders and proceed to kill many of the Qing officials in the city. Han working for the Qing begin to defect.
The mob declare Zhao their king. Zhao, following his Confucian principles, decrees that the army leave peasants unmolested. After an Imperial Army ruthlessly crushes disobedient peasants in the area, they flock to the rebel side. Soon other cities in Shandong revolt, and Han generals and officials defect.

- Zhao and defected Han generals organize and equip the mob into an army and drive Qing forces from Shandong in a succesful campaign. Zhao proclaims himself Guxun Emperor of the Great Yong Dynasty. The people cut off their queues and resumed Ming-era customs.

- Zhao's rebellion is wildly popular among virtually all Chinese people, and it keeps defeating the Qing armies, who are badly weakened and demoralized in the immediate aftermath of the war.

- The British and French side with the Qing, and supply weapons and instructors. The Americans never take much interest.
The Russians, still reeling from the defeat in Crimea, and seeing an opportunity for gain in a Russian-friendly China, supply the rebels with weapons and instructors.

- The rebels gain the upper hand when the Qing army in Shanghai is defeated and the yellow river captured, and Sengge Rinchen is captured and killed in the north by a joint Yong-Russian force. The rebel army enters Beijing in 1863, and remaining Qing resistence collapses.

- The Qing, now reduced to their original homeland, offer peace to the Yong. Zhao accepts, on the condition that the Qing renounce the imperial title and become Yong vassals.

- The Yong Dynasty now rules all of China from the capital at Jinan, renamed Guangjing.
This isn't a terrible scenario, but not terribly likely either. By the late Qing, the Han Chinese nobility is no longer really significant or very large, and the gentry in the 1850s will still be fairly loyal to the Qing regime.

If you just want to remove the Qing, you could probably suffice with a northern Taiping-style peasant revolt. Also, it's not unprecedented for newly-established Chinese dynasties to switch capitals (e.g., how Chang'an and Luoyang were switched as capitals several times), but Beijing already has history and precedent behind it as a national capital, and Ji'nan doesn't, so it seems more likely that a new dynasty would remain in place in Beijing.

I imagine your new Chinese dynasty, the Yong, could use one of two likely characters: Yōng (雍), meaning harmonious, or Yǒng (永), meaning eternal. The latter is a bit out of place in the traditional Confucian mindset about dynastic change, so I would personally go for the first one. I can't think of any Chinese characters that correspond to Guxun yet also sound like a dynastic name. I guess there is Ancient Teaching, Gǔxùn (古訓), but it doesn't sound very lofty. You might get away with something to do with Ku, in reference to the legendary Chinese Emperor Di Xu. Kùxùn (嚳訓) could be translated as Instruction of Emperor Ku. However, it would also work if you picked something more conventional. Some Chinese era names were reused. E.g. Tiānxīng (天興) would be Heavenly Thriving, Yánhé (延和) could Extending Harmony, Tàiān (太安) would be Great Safety, Jiànyuán (建元) would be Establishing Universality, Jiànpíng (建平) would be Establishing Peace. All of these sound much nicer than Guxun to me.
 
Hell, you don't even need to butterfly away the Taiping. Just have TTL's Zeng Guofan decide 'screw the Ming', and march his Provincial Army on Beijing.
 
This isn't a terrible scenario, but not terribly likely either. By the late Qing, the Han Chinese nobility is no longer really significant or very large, and the gentry in the 1850s will still be fairly loyal to the Qing regime.

If you just want to remove the Qing, you could probably suffice with a northern Taiping-style peasant revolt. Also, it's not unprecedented for newly-established Chinese dynasties to switch capitals (e.g., how Chang'an and Luoyang were switched as capitals several times), but Beijing already has history and precedent behind it as a national capital, and Ji'nan doesn't, so it seems more likely that a new dynasty would remain in place in Beijing.

I imagine your new Chinese dynasty, the Yong, could use one of two likely characters: Yōng (雍), meaning harmonious, or Yǒng (永), meaning eternal. The latter is a bit out of place in the traditional Confucian mindset about dynastic change, so I would personally go for the first one. I can't think of any Chinese characters that correspond to Guxun yet also sound like a dynastic name. I guess there is Ancient Teaching, Gǔxùn (古訓), but it doesn't sound very lofty. You might get away with something to do with Ku, in reference to the legendary Chinese Emperor Di Xu. Kùxùn (嚳訓) could be translated as Instruction of Emperor Ku. However, it would also work if you picked something more conventional. Some Chinese era names were reused. E.g. Tiānxīng (天興) would be Heavenly Thriving, Yánhé (延和) could Extending Harmony, Tàiān (太安) would be Great Safety, Jiànyuán (建元) would be Establishing Universality, Jiànpíng (建平) would be Establishing Peace. All of these sound much nicer than Guxun to me.

Yeah, if Biejing is too close to the border they may just go for Nanjing which is also if I remember a good candidate for a Chinese capital.
 

Dorozhand

Banned
This isn't a terrible scenario, but not terribly likely either. By the late Qing, the Han Chinese nobility is no longer really significant or very large, and the gentry in the 1850s will still be fairly loyal to the Qing regime.

If you just want to remove the Qing, you could probably suffice with a northern Taiping-style peasant revolt. Also, it's not unprecedented for newly-established Chinese dynasties to switch capitals (e.g., how Chang'an and Luoyang were switched as capitals several times), but Beijing already has history and precedent behind it as a national capital, and Ji'nan doesn't, so it seems more likely that a new dynasty would remain in place in Beijing.

I imagine your new Chinese dynasty, the Yong, could use one of two likely characters: Yōng (雍), meaning harmonious, or Yǒng (永), meaning eternal. The latter is a bit out of place in the traditional Confucian mindset about dynastic change, so I would personally go for the first one. I can't think of any Chinese characters that correspond to Guxun yet also sound like a dynastic name. I guess there is Ancient Teaching, Gǔxùn (古訓), but it doesn't sound very lofty. You might get away with something to do with Ku, in reference to the legendary Chinese Emperor Di Xu. Kùxùn (嚳訓) could be translated as Instruction of Emperor Ku. However, it would also work if you picked something more conventional. Some Chinese era names were reused. E.g. Tiānxīng (天興) would be Heavenly Thriving, Yánhé (延和) could Extending Harmony, Tàiān (太安) would be Great Safety, Jiànyuán (建元) would be Establishing Universality, Jiànpíng (建平) would be Establishing Peace. All of these sound much nicer than Guxun to me.

Thanks for the advice!

Guxun was supposed to be 古勳 or ancient merit, if my understanding is correct, but an older name probably would be better anyway.

I was using the "eternal" meaning of Yong 永 but the first one does work better.
 
I'd often wondered about this question, but lacked enough knowledge of Chinas history to reach any conclusions.

So, would this enable effective resistance to the Unequal Treaties, or to Japanese expansion in the 1890s?
 
I think there is good chance that all Mongolia (including Inner Mongolia) become independent or become Russian Empire protectorate. Also Xinjiang will be independent.

- The British and French side with the Qing, and supply weapons and instructors. The Americans never take much interest.
The Russians, still reeling from the defeat in Crimea, and seeing an opportunity for gain in a Russian-friendly China, supply the rebels with weapons and instructors.
In this case I see Russians integrated whole Manchuria in Russian Empire, not just Outer Manchuria as did in OTL.
 

Dorozhand

Banned
The capital was moved from Beijing to Jinan because Beijing was now too close to the border. The Jianhui Emperor didn't want to move to Nanjing or Hangzhou because he saw that as a sign of weakness or cowardice. He chose to establish the capital at Jinan because the city was far enough away from the border, in a good position on the Yellow River, and was the already aging 60 year old emperor's hometown. Many of the great artworks of Beijing (including some of the buildings in the forbidden city), were moved, and the reduced forbidden city retained as a summer residence.

China:

Yong-4b.png

Yong-4b.png
 
Last edited:

Dorozhand

Banned
This isn't a terrible scenario, but not terribly likely either. By the late Qing, the Han Chinese nobility is no longer really significant or very large, and the gentry in the 1850s will still be fairly loyal to the Qing regime.

If you just want to remove the Qing, you could probably suffice with a northern Taiping-style peasant revolt. Also, it's not unprecedented for newly-established Chinese dynasties to switch capitals (e.g., how Chang'an and Luoyang were switched as capitals several times), but Beijing already has history and precedent behind it as a national capital, and Ji'nan doesn't, so it seems more likely that a new dynasty would remain in place in Beijing.

I imagine your new Chinese dynasty, the Yong, could use one of two likely characters: Yōng (雍), meaning harmonious, or Yǒng (永), meaning eternal. The latter is a bit out of place in the traditional Confucian mindset about dynastic change, so I would personally go for the first one. I can't think of any Chinese characters that correspond to Guxun yet also sound like a dynastic name. I guess there is Ancient Teaching, Gǔxùn (古訓), but it doesn't sound very lofty. You might get away with something to do with Ku, in reference to the legendary Chinese Emperor Di Xu. Kùxùn (嚳訓) could be translated as Instruction of Emperor Ku. However, it would also work if you picked something more conventional. Some Chinese era names were reused. E.g. Tiānxīng (天興) would be Heavenly Thriving, Yánhé (延和) could Extending Harmony, Tàiān (太安) would be Great Safety, Jiànyuán (建元) would be Establishing Universality, Jiànpíng (建平) would be Establishing Peace. All of these sound much nicer than Guxun to me.

I changed some things around and added characters
 
The capital was moved from Beijing to Jinan because Beijing was now too close to the border. The Jianhui Emperor didn't want to move to Nanjing or Hangzhou because he saw that as a sign of weakness or cowardice. He chose to establish the capital at Jinan because the city was far enough away from the border, in a good position on the Yellow River, and was the already aging 60 year old emperor's hometown. Many of the great artworks of Beijing (including some of the buildings in the forbidden city), were moved, and the reduced forbidden city retained as a summer residence.

China:

View attachment 200212

How is your border drawn?
Based on ethnicity or some geographic consideration?
 
I see. Everything new seems fine at first glance.

Well, the border with Manchuria is roughly the same as it was during the Ming Dynasty, so there's a precedent for that.

Ok. Lets assume China and Manchu borders intact... How about the Mongolia and Manchu border?

If the Chinese revolt is Russian sponsored does it mean that whole Manchuria is already invaded by Russians? Russians ultimate goal is to get ice-free port, so Russians could have taken Port-Artur and Dalniy (OTL - Dalian)
 

Dirk_Pitt

Banned
Ok. Lets assume China and Manchu borders intact... How about the Mongolia and Manchu border?

If the Chinese revolt is Russian sponsored does it mean that whole Manchuria is already invaded by Russians? Russians ultimate goal is to get ice-free port, so Russians could have taken Port-Artur and Dalniy (OTL - Dalian)

Maybe the Chinese will allow the Russians to build a Naval Base there and give them a favorable trade agreement?
 

Dorozhand

Banned
Ok. Lets assume China and Manchu borders intact... How about the Mongolia and Manchu border?

If the Chinese revolt is Russian sponsored does it mean that whole Manchuria is already invaded by Russians? Russians ultimate goal is to get ice-free port, so Russians could have taken Port-Artur and Dalniy (OTL - Dalian)

The main influx of Russian aid came through Mongolia because Sengge Rinchen was giving the Rebels a very hard time there. The Mongol borders were drawn to include parts of inner Mongolia, as compensation for the Manchu border to be drawn at the military status-quo, and the Russians were also ceded territory in Uygurstan as a payment for Russian cooperation. As for the Russian ice-free port, they already have it in the future Vladivostok. I suspect Port Arthur is going to be leased to the Russians, who will be content with very favourable trading arrangments in Chinese ports. Manchuria retains its independence but is under the thumb of both China and Russia politically and economically.
 
Last edited:
...and expanding Japan is just around the corner.
The Meiji Restoration hasn't technically started yet and Japan isn't expanding to Manchuria for a while. Also, Japan's expansion doesn't have to succeed in this universe either. There were many ways that the Meiji Restoration and the Satsuma-Choshu alliance could have failed.
 
Top