The Promise of a Clean Regime | An Independent State of Croatia TL

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General Ripper

Banned
As I said before, Maček was a very careful politician. So, you have 2 options:

a) he goes with independent Croatia full on, proclaims Republic and independence and breaks any contact with Government in London.

b) he goes with independent Croatia as temporary solution ( and permanent if international circumstances allow ) but hkeeps the doors for eventual return to Yugoslavia and deal with Government in London open, at least as much as possible. That would imply- no republic, name of the country is State of Croatia ( so generic, it can one day become again federal unit in Yugoslavia or even independent if possible ). But I think that this solution undermines evrreything. All his authority in Croatia would vanish if ge goes this route- neither independence, neither Yugoslavia. If they go in London, that would mean that Šubašić and Šutej are against independent Croatia. And with Maček as it's head, I really don't see the possibility for compromise there. IMHO, this solution would ge ideal for Ustashes, they could again brand him as a traitor that can't decide if Croatia is independent or not.

Also, Šubašić and Šutej don't seem as very independent politicians to me. They will go in London if he tells them so, but not on their own.

Because, that route ( sending some HSS members in Londoon while himself remaining in Croatia ) was open to Maček in OTL, with his policy of non-involment and waiting, but not ITTL where he becomes the head of independent Croatia.
 
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plenka

plenka

Banned
When I said organization I meant numbers, armaments, TOEs (tables of organization and equipment) and so on.

What would be interesting to see is will there be substantial communist resistance, and how would they fare against TTL Domobranstvo, which is not demoralized from the start by loss of Dalmatia, with possibly younger, more energetic and adaptable officers, and hopefully better led. I pushed for a smaller military, for several reasons, the main one being the quality of the soldiers availlable. If we cap the entirety of the Homeguard at some 100 thousand men, I would judge that to be more then sufficient to deal with any rebellion and insurgency, provided that the men are well led, equipped and trained. However, this is for hostilities only size, when war is over that number could and should be substantialy decreased.

Be aware that I have no military experience, and that I picked out this number by looking at what they had at various points in time in OTL. If you have a better idea feel free to share it.
 

General Ripper

Banned
plenka said:
When I said organization I meant numbers, armaments, TOEs (tables of organization and equipment) and so on.

What would be interesting to see is will there be substantial communist resistance, and how would they fare against TTL Domobranstvo, which is not demoralized from the start by loss of Dalmatia, with possibly younger, more energetic and adaptable officers, and hopefully better led. I pushed for a smaller military, for several reasons, the main one being the quality of the soldiers availlable. If we cap the entirety of the Homeguard at some 100 thousand men, I would judge that to be more then sufficient to deal with any rebellion and insurgency, provided that the men are well led, equipped and trained. However, this is for hostilities only size, when war is over that number could and should be substantialy decreased.

Be aware that I have no military experience, and that I picked out this number by looking at what they had at various points in time in OTL. If you have a better idea feel free to share it.
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That would be very optimistic to expect from military in formation, without enough weapons and equipment, armed from various sources ( Yugoslav equipment, Germany, italy etc. ).

Also, I don't think that some conflict with Italy about Dalmatia can be avoided. Now, how will that be solved, I will leave to author.
 

Magyarország

General Ripper said:
About Ustashe's- I agree.

About Ban- I don't agree, because most of the Croats will probably regard the title of Ban as important title, but title that mostly developed during the period of foreign rule in Croatia, when Croatia had no their own kings. So, now, if Croatia is independent, why have Ban instead of President?
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Maybe not important, but it has significant historical meaning and I don't see why the Croats couldn't repurpose the title, considering even the last few bans of Croatia-Slavonia were Croats themselves. Of course, there's also Ban Jelačić to consider. Finally, while this is purely subjective, but Ban just sounds cooler and 'Croatian'. ;)

plenka said:
It seems to me only Croatians read this.
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General Ripper said:
Yeah, it seems so. With the exception of Magyarorzsag. :)
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:)
 
John_Smith

John_Smith

I have edited Chapter I.IV and replaced Kolar with Šutej as Minister of Finance. And I have an idea about what to do with Šubašić which I'll get into in chapter I.V.
 

General Ripper

Banned
Magyarország said:
Maybe not important, but it has significant historical meaning and I don't see why the Croats couldn't repurpose the title, considering even the last few bans of Croatia-Slavonia were Croats themselves. Of course, there's also Ban Jelačić to consider. Finally, while this is purely subjective, but Ban just sounds cooler and 'Croatian'. ;)




:)
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I don't have anything against title of Ban, and actually I'm sorry that there's no such title in Croatia. I would actually rather like to have Prime Minister of Croatia named Ban. But somehow, there was allways someone above Ban. King, either during independent Croatian Kingdom or during Hungarian-Croatian Kingdom or Habsburg Monarchy or even during Yugoslavia. So, somehow, Ban, in my head, can't be the top official in Croatia. Maybe the Prime Minister ( that title actually evolved into Prime-Ministerial in OTL anyway ) but not the president. Somewhat like Palatin in Hungary. So, now, when Croatia is independent, and there's no King because it's republic, I don't see the need for Ban as Head of State. Maybe as Head of Government.
 

Magyarország

General Ripper said:
I don't have anything against title of Ban, and actually I'm sorry that there's no such title in Croatia. I would actually rather like to have Prime Minister of Croatia named Ban. But somehow, there was allways someone above Ban. King, either during independent Croatian Kingdom or during Hungarian-Croatian Kingdom or Habsburg Monarchy or even during Yugoslavia. So, somehow, Ban, in my head, can't be the top official in Croatia. Maybe the Prime Minister ( that title actually evolved into Prime-Ministerial in OTL anyway ) but not the president. Somewhat like Palatin in Hungary. So, now, when Croatia is independent, and there's no King because it's republic, I don't see the need for Ban as Head of State. Maybe as Head of Government.
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While I disagree (except that President of Croatia makes sense, especially with the HSS's ideology), I get what you mean. However, regardless of any Ban throughout history having a King above them, the Ban was always the highest-ranking person within the Kingdom and represented the King in his absence. Just like the Palatine of Hungary, as you said. Both titles were (very) roughly equivalent to Governor or Viceroy and really were, technically, the Heads of State. At least, that's how I interpret it. Just like the Queen and Governor-Generals in modern Commonwealth realms.

Of course, since there are no Kings of Croatia, then the Ban title is not necessary, but I don't think it should be HoG. Especially since, etymologically, Ban means 'ruler', so it can still work as a non-viceroy-type title.
 
I.V | Save the Population - April 16, 1941
  • Index
    • John_Smith

    John_Smith

    He was finally left alone, at least for a single moment. He took a deep breath. I need rest. He thought absentmindedly. While energized before, the last ten days were torturous for the old man. Feeling no strength in himself he just sat back in his comfortable chair, replaying the events that happened today. He just held a thirty minute conversation with the German Plenipotentiary General Edmund Glaise von Horstenau, who informed him of everything and anything he had to but didn't want to know.

    „The Wehrmacht guarantees Croatian territorial sovereignty.“

    „Does it really?“ the old man bit back.

    „…Excuse me?“

    „If that is really the case why did I receive over twenty complaints and letters just this morning about Italians destroying everything they come across, from Krk to Split?“

    „Uh… I assure you, that matter will be dealt with…“

    „When, General? When?“

    „…In due time, I assure you.“

    „Please stop assuring me, sir. Assure me by doing something, anything to stop them.“

    „…Yes, Mr. Ban.“

    Von Horstenau left the room awkwardly, fumbling and stumbling over himself.

    Maček's anger and exhaustion seem quite justified. He had received over eighty letters writing about various crimes Mussolini's lackeys committed: everything from looting and pillaging to forcibly displacing Croatian families from their homes. Minister of Armed Forces Kemfelja was informed about the incidents, and he immediately hastened his work. He quickly set up a meeting between himself, Zvonko Kovačević [1], Vladimir Laxa [2], Emil Uzelac [3] and Slavko Štancer [4] who have volunteered for the newly established Republic. The meeting is set for April 17, 10:00 and will be located inside the Banski Dvori.

    He hoped the trouble in Dalmatia will be quelled soon enough. It pained him to read all those touching letters writing about the worst aspects of human souls, or lack thereof. His cheerless thoughts were broken by three soft knocks on the door.

    „Y-yes?“ he quickly tried to collect himself, but to no avail, he was too tired to do anything.

    A tall man, clad in a light brown tuxedo that hugged his body perfectly, entered the room. He took his hat off as a sign of greeting.

    „You said you needed me, Vladko.“

    „Right, right… I forgot already. Come. Sit.“

    The taller man approached the seat on the opposite side of the table in hasty steps, obviously sensing Maček's fatigue and lack of focus. He sat quickly, smoothing out the fabric of his pants quickly. Maček continued.

    „Ivan… I apologize for not being able to find you a place in my cabinet. However there is a reason for my decision...“

    The younger man nodded simply, urging him to continue.

    „I ask you to become Ambassador of the Republic of Croatia to the Kingdom of Italy.“

    He was caught by surprise. He certainly didn't expect this. He knew how important that position is, especially considering the tense situation down in Dalmatia. It could be said that the man responsible for the relations between Croatia and Italy is also the one who holds the fate of the former in his hands. The safety of the Croatian people would, to a certain extent, be his sole responsibility.

    He carefully considered it. His two years as Ban of Croatia cemented his faith in Maček, and especially in his ideas of a Croatia built on republican principles. He knew he must guard those beliefs and ideas, because otherwise it would all be in vain.

    „What shall it be, Mr. Šubašić?“ Maček asked, some sense of eagerness managing to find its way out of his tired mind.

    „It would be an honor to serve the Republic.“

    Maček breathed out a sigh of relief, a small smile etching itself on his wrinkled face. He handed Šubašić a paper. The taller man took it in his right hand and observed it. A thick handwritten title appeared on top of the paper saying: „HRVATSKI SABOR POČINJE S RADOM PETOGA SVIBNJA“ [5] with some text underneath it. After flipping the paper on the other side, he saw an extensive list of people who, upon closer inspection, were politicians invited to the first session of the Sabor, due in nineteen days.

    „I need you to spread the message to everyone listed on that paper. We are going to make this right.“

    Šubašić smiled subtly at Maček's encouraging words.

    „You can go now.“

    Šubašić stood up and quickly left the room, leaving Maček alone. The old man took the glass whose bottom had a couple of drops of some liquid from his table. He drank what was left. Despite it being plain water, it still helped clear his head, at least a bit.

    He hoped all ninety six people listed on that paper would join him on the historic date. The date when the true spirit of democracy will finally enter the Croatian nation. He worked long and hard on that list, and he sincerely hoped that the fruits of his labor will pay off in the end.

    *****
    ​
    [1] Leader of the Croatian Civil Protection (HGZ), paramilitary wing of the HSS that worked in tandem with Kemfelja's HSZ.
    [2] Served in the Austro-Hungarian Army for 28 years (1890 - 1918). One of only 131 people to be awarded the Military Order of Maria Theresa for his 'heroism, enormous bravery, and tenaciously successful defense of positions' during the Eleventh Battle of the Isonzo in 1917.
    [3] Notable commander of the Austro-Hungarian Imperial and Royal Aviation Troops credited with modernizing the force.
    [4] Austro-Hungarian Army Colonel who lost his arm on the Serbian Front.
    [5] Translated to 'Croatian Sabor To Begin With Work On May 5'.
    Special thanks to @General Ripper for helping me with the number of MPs for the Provisional Sabor.
     
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    • plenka

    plenka

    Banned
    Situation is heating up. Only way to stop the Italians is through Germans, Croatia at this moment really does not have any organized military forces, and even small numbers of Italian troops are a substantial obstacle. But, nice to see that some sort of military force is to be organized, he has a meeting with practicaly the best officers Croatia had availlable at the time, and hopefully Homeguards will be a better force then they were in OTL.

    And I think you made a mistake, it is not Zvonimir, its Zvonko Kovačević.
     
    John_Smith

    John_Smith

    plenka said:
    Situation is heating up. Only way to stop the Italians is through Germans, Croatia at this moment really does not have any organized military forces, and even small numbers of Italian troops are a substantial obstacle. But, nice to see that some sort of military force is to be organized, he has a meeting with practicaly the best officers Croatia had availlable at the time, and hopefully Homeguards will be a better force then they were in OTL.

    And I think you made a mistake, it is not Zvonimir, its Zvonko Kovačević.
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    Things are certainly going to be very complicated, and just messy in general.

    I had a feeling that might be wrong. The Zvonko variant is used much more than Zvonimir, even though I found both variants in 'Tko je tko u NDH' book which is a gold mine for everything I wrote up to this point. I will correct it.
     
    plenka

    plenka

    Banned
    Well, I must notice that entire timeline of events in Croatia has been changed. No official sanction for the persecution of Serbs, and while there will be incidents, they will be nothing like on the scale of OTL. Also, even with Italians causing problems and laying claim on Dalmatia, government will be seen as opposing them, not as willing participant as in OTL.

    These two seemingly unrelated things will have substantial effects later on, especially on the Communists. Serbs will not be terrorized as in OTL ( no "wild Ustaše" roaming about), thus they will not be ready recruits for the insurgency. Also as government is seen doing something about Italians, Dalmatian populace is also not going to be easy targets and willing to join Communists.

    Thus, while there is certainly going to be Communist uprisings, especially after 22. of June, they will be much reduced in size and scope, and will not enjoy relatively large support amongst the populace.

    Croatian Homeguard is also going to be somewhat better off, and will not be starved of men and equipment. Not having Ustaška Vojnica, who recieved lion's share of arms, and cherry-picked the best men and officers, can only have positive effect on Homeguard. If I recall correctely Vojnica, by May of 43, has grown to 76 thousand men, not counting various irregular units, under Ustaša command. Not having those idiots can only be a good thing.

    Add to that, that at least some Croatian Serbs, who have been part of Royal Yugoslav Army, will also become a part of the Homeguard, thus bringing some much needed experience and expertise. Not having those educated soldiers join Communists is one of the greatest advantages I can think of.

    As for how the Homeguard is going to be set up, I think much depends on Maček, what were his opinions on the military? He was rather Western in his outlook, so one can assume that he would prefer a somewhat smaller, professional army, backed by a certain number of reservists. Maybe something similar to old Austro-Hungarian army, with regular Homeguard backed by reserve LandSturm (Pučko-Ustaške). I have noticed that Vladimir Laxa has been called up, maybe he will have a much greater influence on the development of Homeguard then in OTL, and maybe we will see them adopting brigade system earlier then in OTL, thus making them much more effective and flexible formations.
     

    General Ripper

    Banned
    Maček could also ask Vilko Begić to become a member of Domobranstvo. Also, I'm not so sure that Slavko Kvaternik will be so eager to remain loyal to Pavelić if Maček proclaims independent Croatia.
     
    John_Smith

    John_Smith

    plenka said:
    snip
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    Thanks for these detailed replies, man, I really enjoy reading them. Your knowledge regarding military matters (and that essay you sent on Sunday) are of tremendous help.

    Of course, regarding military setup, I do agree with the fact that Maček would like to have a smaller, more compact professional army with reservists waiting on the sidelines, so to speak. I also think he would prefer to have the Croatian name of Landsturm changed (from Pučko-Ustaške to maybe Jurišnici or something else) to avoid any connection with Ustaše, no matter how minuscule they might seem, since he was a very careful politician.

    General Ripper said:
    Maček could also ask Vilko Begić to become a member of Domobranstvo. Also, I'm not so sure that Slavko Kvaternik will be so eager to remain loyal to Pavelić if Maček proclaims independent Croatia.
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    Great idea, I will make sure to insert Begić in somehow.
    And regarding Kvaternik, I still think he'd proceed with caution, since Maček (who was regarded as a fairly moderate by everyone, and as a Yugophile by Ustaše) suddenly taking over an Axis-backed Croatia would catch them all by surprise, definitely, but I doubt any major desertions will happen from the movement, at least during the first few weeks/months of independence.
     
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