The Promise of a Clean Regime | An Independent State of Croatia TL

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by John_Smith, Nov 19, 2017.

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  1. Threadmarks: I.I | You Don't Know My Mind - April 6, 1941

    John_Smith Blessing the rains down in Africa

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2017
    "What do I do now?" the old man asked himself. His face bore heavy traces of sweat, making it glisten under the compartment's dim light. He adjusted his glasses with a shaky hand. With his mind racing, he had already forgotten the names of two men that left him to his thoughts barely two minutes ago. He didn't really care for their names, but their ominous words and promises didn't calm him for a second.

    „…the Führer wishes for you to lead the resurrected nation…“

    „And what if I refuse?“ the old man asked with uncertainty.

    The man with slick jet black hair and bushy eyebrows gave him a smile one could only describe as sinister, replying without skipping a beat: „We hand it over to one of Duce's lapdogs...“


    The way the officer delivered that sentence troubled him immensely, he talked of the matter without any emotion or sympathy, like he knows his refusal would lead to the ruin of the nation, which might as well be the case. He knew he couldn't do that in good conscience, not when his homeland he had fought for for decades is at risk of being led to ruin by a ragtag gang of chauvinists.

    „I accept.“

    Was it a mistake to accept his offer? Likely, but it was too late for semantics now. He had a job to do, and he intended to fulfill the eight hundred year dream of his countrymen.
     
  2. Threadmarks: I.II | Dreaming of the Golden Years - April 7, 1941

    John_Smith Blessing the rains down in Africa

    Joined:
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    Everything happened in a flash. He was unable to remember anything particular. He was dragged out of his compartment and into the some brand new convertible car he had never seen before in his country.

    „What's the hurry, gentlemen?“ he tried feigning ignorance, but the officers quickly dismissed his act.

    „They're expecting you.“

    The two shoved the older man into the backseat of the car without any sympathy, simply carrying on with their duty. They threw his suitcase on top of him, hitting him on the head, making him wince in pain.

    He rose from his uncomfortable position and went to check the contents of his suitcase in haste. Documents, coat, socks… everything is here. The sound of the machine's engine awoke him from his relatively carefree thoughts.

    „Where are we headed?“ he inquired, the feeling of unease never leaving his heart.

    „Die Platz.“

    „I hope you have your speech ready.“

    „…speech?“

    „Yes, you are expected to relay our message to the freed people of Croatia.“

    „I understand.“

    He quietly sat back, hoping that the surroundings of the capital city would calm his senses. The unique smell of dusty concrete and freshly cut grass filled his nostrils, and he immediately knew that this was his city. His tense shoulders relaxed, if only for a little bit, but it gave him more confidence. He just made the hardest decision of his career, one that will forever taint his legacy, but it also gave him a chance. A chance for freedom they had almost gotten barely two years ago.

    His choice is what will either doom his country to the dustbin of history, or make it rise again, to be equal to the western democracies, a dream his predecessor gave his life for.

    They approached the square. Desolate streets of the capital city were quickly replaced by the main square filled with hundreds, if not thousands of souls coming from all walks of life. There were lawyers with neatly trimmed mustaches, older peasant women and their husbands wearing old ripped clothes, aristocratic women in their stoic poses with their distinct pursed lips…

    But all these different people had one defining feature they all shared: their ecstatic faces displayed feelings of clear happiness and elation he had never witnessed before. The sight filled his heart with calm. He let out a breath that's been hitching in his throat ever since he was forcibly taken on this less than casual April stroll through town.

    A small boy, no less than eight years old, saw the pristine grey convertible and its passengers, and immediately recognized the face in the backseat. His surprised face contorted to that of unbridled joy and he yelled.

    „He's here!“

    The man next to the boy quickly snapped toward the child's hurried direction. The man was quite muscular, with some scars shown on his hands. He was clad in old brown worker's clothes who have been his own since youth. His face showed years upon years of hard work and experience. But now they have been filled with something that they hadn't been in years: hope. He opened his mouth, and in a deep bass announced:

    Živio ban Maček!“ [1]

    The whole crowd immediately turned, almost automatedly, toward the man's voice. They all joined him, yelling in unison toward their leader.

    Živio ban Maček!

    The old man was perplexed at how quickly the crowd joined together to celebrate him. This is what he feared the most, ever since the threat of Hitler and Mussolini showed up on the political stage. He feared the incredible lengths people would go to to show their admiration toward their leaders, to be willing to hurt innocents just for their leader's glory. It disgusted him, and he sincerely hoped the same wouldn't happen to him.

    „We're here. The stage is yours.“ They arrived already? The driver pointed his index finger to the makeshift wooden stage.

    Maček exited the car hastily, climbing the creaky oak stairs. A small rostrum awaited him in the middle. He approached it slowly, trying to appear relaxed.

    He looked right at it. Fernkorn's [2] statue proudly stood there, above the unassuming crowd, reminding him of the glorious days of the past, back when his country stood proud and tall. The mustached horseman symbolized the pride and bravery that his people have displayed time and time again, all the way from their Kingdom right to the time of rifles not even thirty years before.

    He smiled unknowingly, almost reflexively. He knew what he had to say.

    *****
    [1] translated to 'Long live viceroy Maček' with ban being used as an old Croatian title for local rulers and office holders that existed from the 10th century all the way to 1919 before being abolished, and again from 1939 to 1941.
    [2] meaning Austrian architect Anton Dominik von Fernkorn who created notable sculptures like The Lion of Aspern and Archduke Charles, both of which can be found in Vienna, and the statue of Ban Jelačić, found in Zagreb, which is mentioned in the text above.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
  3. Threadmarks: I.III | Closer Than Most To You - April 7, 1941

    John_Smith Blessing the rains down in Africa

    Joined:
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    „People of Croatia!

    I am terrifically honored to have so many of you assemble on such an abrupt notice.

    Our people have for centuries been subject to foreign rule, be it from Aachen, Budapest, Vienna, Belgrade… But today is not this day!

    We have been given an extraordinary opportunity, a once-in-a-lifetime chance to tear the shackles of outside power and finally create a free and prosperous country together! I wish for you all to show up for duty, because this is the moment we have all been waiting for...“

    While Dr Maček delivered his rousing speech, a male figure left a small establishment on the far opposite side of the Square. His rugged clothes showed signs of wear, and his hunched back carried over sixty years of torturous work in the field.

    He limped toward the crowd, his tired bones not doing him any favors. He leaned most of his weight against the big wooden pole he held tightly in his right hand, as if his life depended on it. Atop the pole, however, was a big tricolored flag, showing a bright crimson line sitting on top of its silver companion, both swimming in the calming navy blue ocean.

    The mid-afternoon wind lightly sailed through the worn cloth, used numerous times before for weddings and all kinds of different festivities its standard-bearer experienced throughout his seventy three summers
    [1] in this world.

    Its owner was a proud patriot, one who loved his homeland more than himself ever since the times of Starčević
    [2] and Radić, even suffering beatings and a couple of nights in prison during the Yugoslav Kingdom for nothing else but expressing his love and admiration for his country.

    He even lived through the worst event a man can ever experience on Earth: losing his child. His son, a young hopeful man in his early twenties, left his home during the Great War and never came back, his body being lost somewhere in the forests of Galicia. He fought and died for the flag his father carried all his life.

    When he approached the crowd, his somber thoughts were broken by Dr Maček's loud exclamation.

    „Bog i sloboda!“
    [3]

    His broken heart began beating again. His tired soul knew that those were the things this flag stood for. He joined the crowd, bellowing with all his might and waving his banner with every muscle of his calloused hands.

    „Bog i sloboda!“

    He had no idea he was the first man ever to wave the flag of a newly resurrected nation he loved so incredibly much…


    But of course, that is but a single legend of how the Croatian flag came to be. Many historians since the 1950s have discarded this story as nothing more than fiction. Majority of experts have pointed out that the flag in question was the state flag of short-lived Banovina of Croatia (1939-1941) and was just another inheritance from the failed autonomous province, amongst many other things.

    upload_2018-8-6_14-33-57.png
    Flag of the newly established Republic of Croatia

    *****

    [1] 'summer' has two meanings in Croatian, one of them being a season of the year, and the other being a synonym for year (example: twenty years old = twenty summers old).
    [2] meaning Ante Starčević, 19th century Croatian politician and founder of the Croatian Party of Rights. Referred to as Father of the Homeland for promoting the ideology of Croatian nationalism.
    [3] meaning 'God and liberty'. Original quote by 19th century French Catholic priest and philosopher Robert de Lamennais.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
  4. Unknown Member

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    This won't end well. At all.
     
  5. Threadmarks: I.IV | All Alone, Not By Myself - April 16, 1941

    John_Smith Blessing the rains down in Africa

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    It has been nine days since Maček's speech, and only a day since the Kingdom's unconditional surrender [1]. After spending countless hours overthinking his every step and choice that led him up to this moment, he was finally ready. He abolished Šubašić's cabinet the day before, and today he was going to inaugurate his own. He carefully picked each candidate among dozens of choices, with the help of his party colleagues.

    His cabinet was heavily based upon the one from the now occupied Kingdom, with only difference being that the position of Minister of People's Physical Education was combined with the Ministry of Education, since Dr Maček believed the two to be intertwined. He announced his cabinet to the crowd of journalists wishing to interview him on Wednesday, three days after Easter in front of the Banski Dvori [2].

    The leadership is helmed, of course, by the Ban: Dr Vladko Maček.

    His second in command is the Viceban (Podban) Dr Ivo Krbek, lawyer, professor of Administrative Law, one-term mayor of Zagreb (1932-1934) and Ivan Šubašić's podban during the now-defunct Banovina of Croatia (1939-1941). Podban assumes the role of Ban in case of the latter's death, incapacitation, resignation or impeachment.

    Next comes the Minister of Foreign Affairs (Ministar vanjskih poslova). This important cabinet position is taken by August Košutić, one of the champions of the Croatian Peasant Party (HSS), and for a short time Minister of Construction in Yugoslavia from 1926 to 1927 where he successfully combated corruption. Now he is tasked with his country's diplomacy as well as providing support for its diaspora.

    The Ministry of Armed Forces (Ministarstvo oružanih snaga) is given to Đuka Kemfelja, commander of the Croatian Peasant Safeguard (HSZ), paramilitary wing of the HSS founded in 1936 to protect the people of Croatia from government reprisals and repression. He is tasked with the establishment of Croatian Armed Forces, as well as planning, development and ways of financing the soon-to-be Navy, Air Forces and Ground Forces.

    Now comes the Minister of Internal Affairs (Ministar unutarnjih poslova) Ivanko Farolfi - lawyer, former public notary and mayor of Vis, and one of Maček's confidants. His ministry must protect the order of the Republic of Croatia, protect the lives of its citizens and ensure the protection of their property.

    Next on the list is Minister of Justice (Ministar pravde) Ljudevit Tomašić, another prominent member of the HSS, former elementary school teacher and one of the Kingdom's many dissidents, who will from now on be in charge of prosecuting government cases and the administration of institutions falling within the scope of the judiciary system (such as courts, prisons, etc.).

    Now comes quite a controversial pick – poet Vladimir Nazor for Minister of Education (Ministar prosvjete). Maček believed Nazor would be the best choice, due to his influence, popularity and relatively apolitical stances. It took some convincing on his part but in the end he succeeded. However he was thoroughly criticized by many from his party because Nazor was not affiliated with the HSS in any way, shape or form. They begrudgingly accepted in the end, though, which is all that mattered to the old man. The artist was charged with improving the quality of the school system and standardizing the curriculum.

    He went safe next: He chose lawyer Juraj Šutej for Minister of Finance (Ministar financija). Šutej is continuing his service from Cvetković-Maček and Simović governments. He will have to worry about state finances and the budget of the newly established nation.

    Bariša Smoljan being a part of Maček's new cabinet was nothing unexpected, but him being chosen for Minister of Construction (Ministar građevine) certainly was. Many in his party were surprised, but the fifty two year-old lawyer took the post without complaining. He would be tasked with determining the conditions for design and construction of buildings, issuing building permits, etc.

    Judge and lawyer Ivan Andres was chosen as Minister of Trade and Industry (Ministar trgovine i industrije), continuing his tenure from the days of the Cvetković-Maček administration. Jurisdiction of this ministry included foreign and domestic trade, insurance institutes, lower and secondary vocational courses for trade and industry, stock exchanges, and industrial property protection.

    Lawyer Stjepan Hefer, HSS member since the days of Radić, received the Ministry of Agriculture (Ministarstvo poljoprivrede). His work would be aimed at overseeing the development of agriculture and fisheries in Croatia.

    Member of the inner circle of HSS Josip Torbar became Minister of Post and Telegrams (Ministar pošte i brzojava), continuing his service from the Cvetković-Maček cabinet. He would be responsible for Croatia's postal and communicational services.

    Leader of the Yugoslav Muslim Organization (JMO) Džafer Kulenović was announced as Minister of Forestry and Mining (Ministar šuma i ruda). Leadership of the HSS praised the move, as they believed it would increase their support among the Muslim population of Bosnia, but truthfully, Maček didn't even have him in mind until Kulenović showed up the day after Easter to show his support for the newly established country. Kulenović will continue his service from the administrations of Cvetković-Maček and Simović. He would deal with supervision of mining companies, treatment of miners, procurement of work materials and mining and geological field surveys.

    Maček's pick for Minister of Traffic (Ministar prometa) was a pleasant surprise. Ivan Pernar, retired member of the HSS and the survivor of the infamous National Assembly assassination of 1928 was decided upon, thus showing Maček's commitment and admiration for his party's veterans. He would be concerned with overseeing road safety, transport, construction and funding of new roads.

    Ivan Majcan, lawyer from Donji Miholjac, became Minister of National Health and Social Affairs (Ministar narodnog zdravstva i javnih poslova). His policies would be related to social welfare, financial security, social services along with medical and health care.

    Another party veteran Rudolf Horvat was announced as Minister of Supply and Nutrition (Ministar opskrbe i ishrane). He became the oldest cabinet member, being 68 years, 1 month and 3 days old on the day of the administration's announcement. His primary concern would be controlling the prices of food and ensuring no food shortages occur in the country.

    And that was his cabinet. His fifteen horsemen of the apocalypse. Fifteen men that would either save or doom the newly established country. His heart was filled with doubt again. Could they do it?

    He was known as an optimistic man, but lately that hopeful feeling deep inside his heart has vanished. His soul was clouded, uncertainty plaguing his mind ever since he accepted the offer inside that small train compartment barely ten days ago. He was prone to getting only four hours of sleep since then. He used his sleepless time to go through everything he needed to do to create the country he, ironically enough, dreamed of for decades.

    *****
    [1] Maček arrived to Zagreb on 7 April 1941. I believe that his speech announcing the independence of the country would cause uprisings, desertions and rebellions of ethnically Croat units on a larger scale than the OTL Bjelovar Uprising of 7th April, thus accelerating the defeat and unconditional surrender of Yugoslavia.
    [2] roughly translated to 'Viceroyal Palace'. This two-story baroque building served as residence of Croatian bans from 1809 to 1918, bans of the Sava Banovina from 1929 to 1939 and finally as residence of Ban Ivan Šubašić and his government from 1939 to 1941.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
  6. plenka Smrt Pedofilima Banned

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    Watched.

    I am really liking what I have seen so far, it is not very often that Croatia is shown on this forum works. And I must say, having Maček taking over instead of Pavelić will really cause some serious changes. Without Pavelić, there are no obligations towards Italy, no Roman Treaties, which means that Italy does not get Dalmatia, which in turn means that a new state is likely to have a much greater degree of legitimacy in the eyes of the Croatian people. Without Dalmatia being given over to Italy, Communist movement will also be much weakened, without all those dissatisfied people, and having government composed almost exclusively of prominent members of HSS, will also deal quite a blow to Communist numbers.

    Now we have to wait and see what how will the new government act towards the Serbs and Jews. I really do not see Maček opening up concentration camps for Serbs, or sending Ustaše to Serbian villages to ask children to cross themselves. He seems to be one of the relatively few decent people of the period, well respected by both Croats and Serbs alike. Problem are the Germans, will he be forced to deal make a deal with the devil?

    Keep up the good work.
     
  7. Magyarország Legitimizta és Szociáldemokrata

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    Watching. I'm wondering if Maček will send... diplomats to the Allies. It would be bad if Croatia is seen as a fascist/nazi lapdog. Depending on how the war goes, the butterflies for Croatia should be pretty substantial. Post-war Realpolitik might put the country in a good position to weaken the communists in the region.
     
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  8. General Ripper Banned

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    Hmm, interesting TL you have here John. I will follow. If you need any advice, just ask, because I'm from Croatia. I would maybe have a few nitpicks:

    Maybe one thing: I don't think that Šutej or Šubašić would escape with Simović if not ordered by Maček. If he tells them to stay, they will most probably stay.

    Another thing: IMHO, Maček would proclaim Republic of Croatia. Republicanism was so ingrained in HSS political philosopy that anything else would be unthinkable. Also, he would become the President of Croatia, not Ban. But, I would like to see Ban becoming a croatian title for Prime Minister?

    Also, I think that Košutić would become Maček's deputy- viceban/vicepresident. Simply, he was second most influential person in HSS.

    I presume that one of first Maček's moves would be:

    a) organisation of Provisional Sabor ( out of Hrvatsko narodno zastupstvo- members of Yugoslavian Parliament from Croatia- mostly HSS members ) and

    b) announcing the elections for real Sabor?

    I wonder who would become the President of Sabor? Maybe some Serb- from SDS? Or, if they decline, Kulenović?
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
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  9. General Ripper Banned

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    About Italy, Italy will not simply leave Dalmatia to Croatia. They will at least try to occupy as much as possible. But, Croatia will not RECOGNISE this- and that's the important difference. Maybe we could see war between Croatia and Italy here? Italy would win, and maybe Maček will go into forest, organise partisans there and become famed anti-fascist leader?
     
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  10. General Ripper Banned

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    Well, allready Yugoslavian Government ( Cvetković-Maček Cabinet ) has done something like that: They have restricted the number of Jews in colleges and such institutions in an effort to appease Hitler. So, I presume that Maček will keep that decision. But later, when Germans start asking for more ( racial laws etc. )- that would be interesting to see, what will he do?

    About concentration camps- it would be interesting twist ( historical irony ) to have Ustashe's sent into concentration camps- one such was allready in operation- Kruščica near Travnik...
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
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  11. plenka Smrt Pedofilima Banned

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    I frankly do nor know what Italy will or will not do, thing is, without Pavelić willingly signing off Dalmatia, they have no peaceful options. Remember, this time around, Germans made an offer to Maček and he accepted, maybe the Italians will see that as a sign that Croatia belongs firmly in the German sphere and thus back off. Maybe they will ask for greater concessions in Greece, maybe greater land acquisiton in what remains of Yugoslava or greater aid from Germans in Africa?

    As for sending diplomats, remember, HSS did have its people with Royal Government in London, so there are certianly possibilities there.

    As for Ustaše, there are relatively few of those idiots, and they will either go back to Croatia, and be marginalized, or remain with Pavelić in Italy and sink into obscurity. There were small numbers of Ustaše that arrived in Croatia after the declaration of NDH, some 200 men in total. Before the war there was such a small percentage of population that even knew about them, let alone supported them, that without the chaos of April 1941, Maček's refusal of German offer, and finally complete Italian support for the effort, Pavelić and his idiots would never come to power.

    You are Croatian as well?
     
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  12. Magyarország Legitimizta és Szociáldemokrata

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    I can see the Ustashe becoming a problem later on when/if the Germans (or Italians?) become more demanding and the Croats less compliant similar to the Arrow Cross in Hungary. Maybe even with its very own, joint German-Italian Operation Panzerfaust in Croatia.

    Also, isn't Ban more appropriate as Head of State instead of Head of Government/Prime Minister, as it was historically (as it is ITTL if I read correctly)?
     
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  13. plenka Smrt Pedofilima Banned

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    Without substantial Italian or German support, it is unlikely that Ustaše could form a serious threat to the newly formed government. As I said in the post above, Ustaše were a very small group, with "hardcore" membership numbering some 200 men, and with minimal support amongst the people of Croatia. HSS, and to a much lesser extent HSP, held the loyalty of the people, especially amongst the rural poulation, which switched its loyalty to the Ustaše only when HSS, was split by inaction of its leadership, and by its membership deserting to either Ustaše or Communists.
     
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  14. John_Smith Blessing the rains down in Africa

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    I think that's a given. Maček decided to be inactive after Kvaternik proclaimed the NDH because he had a hunch that the WAllies would prevail and establish a democratic Croatian state aligned with the West. What he got instead are Tito's Communists, but that's neither here nor there. I have a feeling he would send diplomats the moment the wind starts blowing in the other direction.


    Thanks, man, I will, for sure. There aren't that many sources on that period, at least not as detailed as I wish for them to be, so I'll need any help I could get, especially for the Sabor and its members.

    I believe Maček would've wanted them to go with Simović, so he could establish at least some sort of contact with the government in exile, so the Yugoslav Cabinet doesn't immediately categorize them all as traitors, which will still be difficult, I know, but it is always easier if you have someone who can defend you when you yourself cannot.

    Absolutely, Republic of Croatia is the official name of the country, I forgot to mention that in the cabinet update. I thought that Maček would've wanted to honor Croatian history so that is why he went with Ban and Podban/Viceban instead of the vanilla Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister.

    I have a feeling that Maček would've kept Kolar and Krbek onboard because he wanted everyone to see the Republic of Croatia as a continuation to the abolished Banovina. And Košutić might work better for Foreign Affairs because of, as you said, his influence, which would help garner support from the Croatian diaspora and it would make getting diplomatic recognition easier.

    Your assumptions are correct, Sabor update is coming next. I am yet to decide the President of Sabor, but if you have any ideas or good choices feel free to let me know in private.

    As far as I am aware the laws weren't enforced as much on the territory of Banovina of Croatia as they were in other banovinas (taken from Croatian Wiki page for Banovina Hrvatska), so Maček might enforce them a bit more to appear 'tough on the undesirables' so Hitler might be more content.

    I won't disclose anything about the Ustaše yet. I have a few ideas about what to do with them.

    The office of Ban changed throughout the millennium of its existence, from provincial rulers who could overpower their superiors (ban Pribina in mid 10th century) to becoming chief government officials (essentially proto-Prime Ministers; for example Josip Jelačić, Josip Šokčević) and then prefects of the Yugoslav banovinas (1929-1941), so it is not unlikely that Maček would've chosen the title of Ban instead of Prime Minister, to appease the patriotic elements of the HSS as well as members of the HSP.
     
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  15. plenka Smrt Pedofilima Banned

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    @John_Smith Have you given any thought on the organization, arming and numbers of the military forces of the Republic?

    I suggest that the name of the army is kept as it was in OTL, that being the Hrvatsko Domobranstvo - Croatian Homeguard, reinstating the legacy of Royal Croatian Homeguard of WW1 fame. As for the numbers, a force of roughly 45-50 thousand men should be sufficient enough, at least for now, you would want only the very best in service, and they will have a an advantage over OTL, with the ability to call upon Serbian population in Croatia, thus expanding your manpower pool. Arming that force however, will be very challenging, small arms should be availlable in some quantity, but everything else will pose a problem. They will generally be reliant on what can be captured from the Yugoslav Army stocks, and whatever cast-offs the Germans and Italians deign to give to them.

    Airforce as well, you can count on the Germans and Italians to cherrypick the best of the lot for themselves. Royal Yugoslav Airforce did have a suprisingly varied amounts of aircraft in service: German Bf-109 E and Do-17, British Hurricanes and Blenheims, domesticaly built Ikarus series of fighters, as well as a mix of older Italian and French aircraft, mostly of Transport/Bomber/Reconaissance variety, predominately designs from 20s and 30ies. They also had a substantial number of seaplanes and flying boats, so hopefully Croatia can get their hands on few of them.

    Navy however should be, barring any Italian meddling, in a much better shape then in OTL, which means it will actually exist. If Italians do not take everything, and that is a very big if, there could be some ships to form Croatian Navy. We can probably forget about any larger units, such as light cruiser Dalmacija, destroyer leader Dubrovnik, or three Beograd class destroyers. But nevertheless there is still a substantial number of smaller naval units, torpedo boats, patrol craft, minesweepers and minelayers, most of which are completely and absolutely obsolete, with many of them built by Austria-Hungary at the turn of the century, but they are still better then nothing. There are a number of more modern craft, such as 10 relatively modern torpedo boats, 2 from UK and 8 from Germany, as well as 4 submarines, all of these are from late 1920s to mid 1930s.
     
  16. General Ripper Banned

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    Trouble is in agreement between germany and Italy where they divided their spheres of interest in Balkans. Line Jastrebarsko-Foča was such line in Croatia. Without Pavelić, as Italian player, at the helm in Croatia, the Italians will most probably consider that evereything south of that line belongs to them and that Maček can have Croatia only in area north of that line. That was the initial Italian demand to Pavelić during talks in Rome.
    But considering that Pavelić was Italian candidate, he managed to trim down Italian requests a bit, managed to get them to accept OTL territory. Because, as Mussolini said: I can't be renunciatore. ( the one who gives up territory in Dalmatia because before he became Duce, he attacked other Italian politicians for giving up the territory in Dalmatia ).

    Yes, I'm a Croat too.
     
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  17. General Ripper Banned

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    About Ustashe's- I agree.

    About Ban- I don't agree, because most of the Croats will probably regard the title of Ban as important title, but title that mostly developed during the period of foreign rule in Croatia, when Croatia had no their own kings. So, now, if Croatia is independent, why have Ban instead of President?
     
  18. General Ripper Banned

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    Trouble is, by sending Košutić/Šutej or Šubašić in London with Simović implies that you recognise Simović's Government as legal Government of whole Yugoslavia. And that means that Croatia isn't independent. That would be undermining of his own position in Croatia.
    I know that Maček was VERY careful politician, maybe even too careful, that was one of reasons why he in OTL refused German offer. But I would think that the mere fact that he accepted German offer here, would mean that he decided that Croatia needs to be independent, and that means full break with Simović ( so he probably never accept's his offer to become member of his Government ) and Yugoslavia, for that matter.

    About Maček's Cabinet- I presume that Maček will leave at least a few places for Serbs, especially his former partners from SDS. Maybe not Srđan Budisavljević ( I can see him goeing in London ) but maybe his brother Julije Budisavljević ( maybe Minister of Health, he was a doctor ) and/or someone else.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
  19. General Ripper Banned

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    May 21, 2016
    Agreed.
    About Navy- the Italians will probably plunder evereything that's not nailed to the ground, especially if they don't get territory they want.
    About Domobranstvo- I agree, even Maček during talks with knez Pavle wanted to have separate Hrvatsko domobranstvo, so I thing that there's no doubt about that.
    About armament, yes, that was the problem in the OTL, so it surely won't be less a problem here.
     
    plenka likes this.
  20. John_Smith Blessing the rains down in Africa

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2017
    I am afraid I haven't, since I am quite a newbie when it comes to military matters, but any help is definitely welcome.

    I have a feeling the Croatian Navy might not be so lucky, since Hitler was known to be ridiculously disinterested and apathetic with the Balkans, even when Pavelić's goons commited so many atrocities that even Plenipotentiary General Glaise von Horstenau was horrified and started sending Hitler letters to do something (he even participated in the failed Lorković-Vokić Plot of 1944), but then again, maybe Hitler's interest might be reignited once Maček accepts his offer, who knows.

    We as Croats were known for being welcoming to foreign powers, weren't we? Sure, we would complain here and there, but we always accepted foreign rule after being defeated (for example Battle of Gvozd Mountain, Battle of Mohacs). We plotted sometimes but it never went anywhere (1671 Zrinski-Frankopan conspiracy comes to mind), plus the title of Ban was carried by some of the most renowned and revered figures in Croatian history - King Zvonimir was Ban under Petar Krešimir IV, Nikola Šubić Zrinski was Ban during Ottoman incursions, Josip Jelačić during the Hungarian revolution of 1848. They still retain their popularity (the latter two) and are still very respected despite being subjects to a foreign powers so I don't really see the title being that much of an issue.

    Hm, yes, I see how that might be very problematic. Would it work if Šutej and Šubašić renounce their memberships in the HSS and decide to go as independents after Maček proclaims the Republic, at least to keep the act going?
     
    plenka and Damian0358 like this.
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