The prodigal son has returned!

[stevep]

England Wins The HYW is also pretty generic, and just HOW England would have done that is SO debatable, I don't think we could get past that debate part.

[FONT=&quot] Depends on what you define as win? Any victory that leaves an English dynasty securely established in Paris would probably lead to a [hopefully successful] English war of independence within a couple of generations. However say some deal ~1360 along the lines nearly achieved would have been very interesting for the future development of Europe. [Basically Edward recognises the French dynasty but they in turn recognise the full independence of Aquitania, possibly also including Brittany. That might well prove stable given the cultural differences between those lands and the French heartland.

[/FONT]

How would England and France develop without the HYW? Because that's essentially what one is doing when you take away the Norman conquest. The possibilities are just TOO cool for a cultural kelidoscope guy like me to ignore.

Sounds like I've won as that was the option I fancied. However as I said above that will have big effects on England especially straight away. Also, depending on whether William survives and what sort of strength he has left it could also have a big impact on France with its most powerful vassal possibly gravely weakened.

Steve

 

[Kidblast]

A Catholic England could be very interesting.

(Personally, I'd like to do my own detailed Nappy TL soon, so I picked something else)

 

[Thermopylae]

Tres cool, as they say in Bristol

Ha ha, very funny. It's like the idea of a French England entered your mind and never left.

 

[Blackbeard]

Well ANY suggestion.... I'll get straight to it, I want something with an Empress of Virginia in it!

 

[Cockroach]

@Cockroach

Ahem, as various members of the board can attest, my non-n00bishness has been thotoughly proven by my witty remarks and my ability to, um, erm... yeah...

I wasn't accusing you of being a nOOb... I was asking how many nOObs we should sacrifice in honour of your return.
Returns to sharpening obsidian knife

 

[Tizoc]

Hmm. What about a timeline in which Antigonus Monophthalmus won in Ipsus (301 BC) with Seleucos dying in battle? That would be very intersting, I think...

 

[Iñaki]

Originally posted by Tizoc
Hmm. What about a timeline in which Antigonus Monophthalmus won in Ipsus (301 BC) with Seleucos dying in battle? That would be very interesting, I think...

I agree totally with you, in fact I also had some ideas about this https://www.alternatehistory.com/Discussion/showthread.php?t=28733&highlight=Ipsus

It is a cool idea

Unfortunately I think that surely the poll willl be won by some of the principal options of the poll (not by others), but I don´t made an util vote , so I vote for others and for the Antigonus victory at Ipsus.

 

[Rick Robinson]

I voted in the poll for Catholic England - that probably means a Tudor POD (though conceivably Yorkist), which I'm always up for.

That said, no Norman Conquest is always interesting too, because of the potential for an oddly different England (including an English tongue that we'd hardly recognize, let alone understand).

Furthermore without the Norman connection England wouldn't have been drawn - or at least far less likely - into the French and Irish quagmires, which would have saved much money and lives. They would have looked far more to the Scandinavian world and trading links than France and military activity.

I think an unconquered Saxon England would still have drifted toward a French orbit. The Low Countries and northern France were undergoing an enormous economic takeoff, and trade with nearby Flanders was bound to become more important (if it wasn't already) than trade with fairly distant Scandinavia. By no coincidence, the feudal system was also ramping up, creating a enormous military potential in northern France - remember, we're only a generation from the First Crusade. Even if the Capetian kings get butterflied into oblivion, there will be a lot of power politics going on, and an England concerned with protecting its trade interests in Flanders will soon find itself drawn into the politics of northern France.

There's also the cultural factor - French culture was the coming thing (another byproduct of economic growth). The impulse toward Church reform, for example, was concentrated in northern France, and French vernacular literature was just taking off.

In comparison to all this, Scandinavia was bumping against its resource limits, and the age of viking power was pretty much over. Beating Hardrada pretty much ended that threat, whereas beating William didn't necessarily end the northern French threat, because northern France was such a dynamic and rising region.

Another dimension of all this, by the way - what happens to all those Norman knights who in OTL came over with Billy the Bastard? Do some of them head south instead, making Robert Guiscard's kingdom even more formidable than in OTL?

-- Rick

 

[Diamond]

England remains Catholic. Dammit, let's see a 30-year reign for Richard III!

Oh, welcome back BTW.